[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

So Nissan's market share will almost certainly increase.

Do Nissan make all their models in the UK? If not… have another think.

Same goes for you comment on shipping. A single large joined up market (eg EU) means you can ship by rail. So can produce in one country on assumption that no boats required to ship to whole (huge) market.

A single country model makes no sense in terms of ecomonies of scale.

Looking to increase exports to countries much further afield makes no environmental sense.

[i]Why would they be anymore expensive than the Qashqai's produced now? [/I]

I think you'll find that Nissan currently have a spreadsheet already setup to show the UK Govt the increase in costs that they'll be looking for a refund of. And the other manufacturers will be following suit.

And what'll be in the spreadsheet? Anything Nissan want to be....

A single country model makes no sense in terms of ecomonies of scale.

+1

The details of the deal would be interesting. Still, if the decision has gone the other way that would have been very bad news indeed

For those looking at national in-sourcing of components etc, can I recommend reading up on Hillman/Rootes at Linwood. Particularly the bits about a workforce that knew how to build ships not cars and the distance from the component expertise.
Given it's even a car example of political interference in industry, then Brexit and messing around with Nissan seems to echo very well.

Singapore have done this very successfully by balancing the flow of skilled migrants with an increase in training in key skills in their universities / technical colleges.

Human rights in Singapore. The government in Singapore has broad powers to limit citizens' rights and to inhibit political opposition. In 2015, Singapore was ranked 153rd out of 175 nations by Reporters Without Borders in the Worldwide Press Freedom Index.

Dictatorships can always do things democracies can't. Not always bad things of course.

Is that why the Brexiters keep trying to crush dissent - to build a glorious future?

We live in a globalised, joined up, world now...imo, any thoughts about 'doing things on our own' is contradictory to common sense ANd the way the rest of the world is operating...personally it just feels like people forcing the issue and disbanding all common sense...

Is that why the Brexiters keep trying to crush dissent - to build a glorious future?

Quiet you traitor!!!

That's not news Binners. Everyone knows about my traitorous nature already.

Do Nissan make all their models in the UK? If not… have another think.

No but they do have rather a clever plant in Sunderland which has been designed to build 5 different platforms of vehicle on the same production line at the same time. It's one of a very small number of plants in the world that can do this - possibly the only one. I'm not sure how many platforms Nissan has at present but it's probably not much more than 5.

So brexit means we'll all have to drive Nissan Qashqais?

Yes... and you'll be force fed tea and scones

At least we will be able to hoover up the crumbs properly.

We're not buying that man's product - he's a Brexiter.

No but they do have rather a clever plant in Sunderland which has been designed to build 5 different platforms of vehicle on the same production line at the same time. It's one of a very small number of plants in the world that can do this - possibly the only one. I'm not sure how many platforms Nissan has at present but it's probably not much more than 5.

So, that is long way of saying that no, they don't build all their models in the UK, but they could perhaps build several models, despite the insane costs of stopping specialisation at their plants (all components for many different models shipping to the NE of England etc, rather than just, or more likely as well as, to the plant currently earmarked for each model) just to cope with British political madness.

I'm putting money on tax breaks rather than some kind of unlikely move to producing all UK market cars in the UK.

and where do Nissan build there engines? For example Skoda build engines for the entire VAG group. Rolls Royce use German engines i believe, BMW Minis again use a engine shared across the group.

The obvious next step is to ask what GM will get to keep Astras at Ellesmere port.

I guess Boris could promise them 350M a week

Oooh, good point RichC. Do you think the Brexy-boys will be expected to keep their promises to car manufacturers?

So Nissan demonstrates simply that we have increased the cost to the UK of having production based here. The only difference is that (presumably) we have given Nissan a tax break, cost advantage, or some other form of compensation to do what they were already going to do.

Baldrick that is brilliant!

Is the qashqai the new People's Car?

Not if they lied to Nissan THM and they only admit it after Nissan are inextricably committed.

Clever, see.

Doesn't just work on voters.

Perhaps

Good to finally see some positive news. The concessions made would indicate support for free movement and industries other than services, which is a positive sign.

I think it's great news that the govt has done a deal with Nissan. I'm saddened that they don't have the confidence to be transparent about it. I mean, shit! There's £350m a week to blow on keeping business here to make Brexit a success.
Rock on! 🙄
Anyone want to wish me happy birthday for yesterday?

Hah. ^ +1

Nissan - quite complicated. The "deal" they have been offered may have been very cheap or even free. Depends on a lot of things.

If they buy parts, engines etc from Europe and then sell the car in Europe there is no additional cost (unless Europe is daft enough to insist on duplicate in/out tariffs which would hurt them). Labour and premises costs, electricity etc all in £ and with £ lower all that is a cost saving for export

So the net costs (or benefits) is quite complex. As it is a Nissan built in the UK until 2019 is currently cheaper to produce than it was wrt to selling it outside the UK. How these extra profits will factor in I don't know

@captain happy birthday and 🙂 will you be keeping the talky to let them know when the £350m is used up (its a moving target as payment is rising 😉 ) ?

jambalaya -
Nissan - quite complicated. The "deal" they have been offered may have been very cheap or even free. Depends on a lot of things.

Will you be keeping the talky to let them know when the £350m is used up (its a moving target as payment is rising  ) ?

Nissan - quite complicated. The "deal" they have been offered may have been very cheap or even free. Depends on a lot of things.

Nissan - quite complicated. The "deal" they have been offered may have been very cheap or even free. Depends on a lot of things.

Nissan gave some clear indications of what they'd require. Free trade and free movement of people pretty central to their expectations. I'm beginning to see hard brexit as a necessary bluff.

Previous governments, of which May was of course a big part, seemed to have had the strategy of announcing something more extreme or radical, testing the reaction for a few days (aka listening to the uproar) and then rolling it back to something more moderate.

So they get what they originally wanted but their opponents feel better as they a) feel relieved because the moderate policy looks good compared to the extreme one and b) feel happier because they think they've exerted some influence over the govt.

That approach would make sense here too, tbh.

Nissan: Free movement of people ? Never heard that. Why on earth would Nissan be interested in free movement of people let alone it be a requirement ? They have a small skilled workforce, easily enough UK candidates and skilled people would get a visa.

My point on the deal is that the cost could be zero and certainly nothing for 2 years, Nissan will be making more profit at this fx rate till 2019. This deal would be consistent with a hard Brexit. Such a deal would not be possible if we where in the Single Market - it would be seen as a subsidy ?

Does anyone know how BMW manages ? All it's X5 models are built in the US. Do they just eat the EU tarif and cross subsidies ?

off course they have a deal .

Trade minister today refused to say what it was when asked 6 TIMES !

and Nissan also knows that the Brexit deal will be longer than 2 years , so give them enough time to make those models and then bugger off if it gets too bad .

Well BMW are a premium brand and the X5 is a premium product within that brand, so I'd imagine there's a lot more wiggle room in the price. Also they might benefit from free trade across the US by sourcing more parts from within the US. Which Nissan won't be able to do within the UK since we're a lot smaller than the US.

Maybe if we had an agreement which would let us easily buy our stuff from other countries and they could buy our stuff, we might be able to compete. OH WAIT

[quote=cchris2lou ]off course they have a deal .

No 10 is refusing to disclose what state support has been given to Nissan to convince the car manufacturer to boost production at its Sunderland plant despite its worries about Brexit

Is there no part of what they are doing on our behalf they are able to tell us?

I think they need someone to explain democracy to them

cchris2lou - Member
off course they have a deal .

Trade minister today refused to say what it was when asked 6 TIMES !

apparently its a written promise to the entire car industry according to R4 earlier to make sure they remain competitive

so either its a guarantee we arent leaving after all 😉 or subsidies to offset the cost of brexit on trade, with their largest market

Nissan will be making more profit at this fx rate till 2019.

meh, I refer you to the Delphi supply chain diagram, again

May: We're actually doing as soft a Brexit as possible, but don't tell anyone.
Ghosn: Mum's the word.

Nissan: Free movement of people ? Never heard that. Why on earth would Nissan be interested in free movement of people let alone it be a requirement ? They have a small skilled workforce, easily enough UK candidates and skilled people would get a visa.

In summer 2000 I went to work in Holland for Nedcar. A summer on the production line making Volvos and Mitsubishis. They could not recruit enough locals so used agencies to bring in folk from across Europe. No visa required.

I hope that BMW are being tarriffed to buggery and are forced to suck it up. An overwhelming majority of the population has just voted to break the shackles of the EU so we can negotiate our own terms with foreign nations. Wouldn't it be embarrassing to discover we could have done this without losing our EU customer base?

[quote=Junkyard ]Is there no part of what they are doing on our behalf they are able to tell us?
I think they need someone to explain democracy to them

Do you want to micro-manage the process?

[quote=kimbers ]

Nissan will be making more profit at this fx rate till 2019.

Well to be fair to jamba, he's simply pointing out there what we keep reminding him about, that the shit won't hit the fan until we actually Brexit. So until 2019 all these foreign companies who make things here will be making more profit whilst their everything is more expensive for their employees (I'm assuming the resulting inflation of stuff in the shops won't result in wage inflation). Which is apparently good for the country - presumably all the other foreign companies will be flocking to set up here?

It all makes sense now.
£350 million for the NHS (Nissan Hand-out at Sunderland)

Do you want to micro-manage the process?

I accept its because they largely have not got a clue but at some point they actually need to say to us what they are trying to get/do beyond a wishy washy aspiration so vague it covers almost anything

So what does the Nissan example prove? The UK is going to have to pay or bribe company to stay, welcome to the utopia

Got to agree with Jamba, it could cost us nothing - although I suspect that it will be more likely a lot but I can probably guess that whoever made the offer didn't actually bother to consider the cost implications as they needed the statement politically .

Jamba is of course correct that they will for now be possibly making a greater £ profit due to the exchange rate -depends on pricing structures and how the internal sales if any are done. Whether they are making a greater € or yen profit is another question. Some companies care about local profit, some about headquarters profit, and of course how they are geared and in which country the gearing has been done can affect the corporate income significantly.

Laura K ont' that BBC was making the point that if there's a deal to sweeten the car industry, then banks will want it too. And every other big company / employer who has the option of trading elsewhere (even if they have no intention of doing so). And that starts to make hard Brexit look a little like political / government finance suicide - unless they really can get a trade deal as good as the EU (well you never know).

Of course, Nissan I think run a five year cycle, so they would only have 2&1/2 of Brexit pain before the next investment decision - or in other words a couple of nice words from May and a wait and see policy might be enough. Not sure that works for, say Jaguar, with their longer model cycles and fewer flexible production options (not none) across the EU.

Given that Nissan is by majority owned by Renault

Renault currently has a 43.4 percent (fully voting) stake in Nissan, and Nissan holds a 15 percent (non-voting) stake in Renault effectively giving Renault control.

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault%E2%80%93Nissan_Alliance ]Renault-Nissan_Alliance[/url]

It has a certain irony about us bailing out of Europe.

From a personal point I had dealings this week with our firms American directors (sales of 99.7 billion £ last year) and they were at a loss as to why as a small trading nation we were so stupid to think we could "go it alone" in a global market.
Thankfully they understood not one person in a position of decision in the UK part of our company wanted to leave.

had dealings this week with our firms American directors (sales of 99.7 billion £ last year) and they were at a loss as to why as a small trading nation we were so stupid to think we could "go it alone" in a global market.

How much UK corporation tax does this multinational pay p.a.?

And Nissan is buying Mitsubishi.

Jambas pls explain to a simple person like me how Nissan is making more money given the translation losses.

Greg Clark's BS on QT is quite appalling. Not only is he refusing to explain any aspect of the deal but his flannel about a government industry strategy is total Bllx.

We employ 3 people. Can we have a sweetener too?
Or option b , would you prefer to whack up our business rates?

Is jamba Digby Jones?

TMH is that a serious question ? Cost of production lower today for cars sold outside the UK, ie most of them. Steel priced in € or $, engines in €, wages and premises costs in £ -> product sold in €

Kimbers as we are still in the EU till 2019 so that Delphi diagram is irrelevant, that was my point.

Why on earth would a minister divulge details of such an agreement at this time as we enter A50 ? A generality is all we should expect.

My Qn on BMW is do they suck up the 12% WTO tariff on every X5 sold into Europe inc Germany (!!) or is there something else going on - maybe as suggested above there is more wiggle room as its a luxury brand.

Of course, Nissan I think run a five year cycle, so they would only have 2&1/2 of Brexit pain before the next investment decision - or in other words a couple of nice words from May and a wait and see policy might be enough. Not sure that works for, say Jaguar, with their longer model cycles and fewer flexible production options (not none) across the EU.

Agreed IGM, May gets the PR boost today, secured jobs for 5yrs and can sort out any problems later. Classic politics (not necessarily a good thing)

As for same deal for financial services - not possible I think. Firstly there are no tariffs on services and secondly if EU block UK based banks via regulation we can't fix that - it's binary yes/no - rather than price/tariff issue.

Mr Overshoot why not ask your American directors how they would feel about a supreme court based in Mexico and the US paying billions of dollars to Mexico and Canada in aid so that they could export more to the US than the US exports to them. Many Americans don't even like Federal Law having precedence over State Law never mind "foreigners" calling the shots. Also both Presidential Candidates think the US's only major trade deal is a disaster.

Many Americans don't even like Federal Law having precedence over State Law never mind "foreigners" calling the shots.

[img] [/img]

And this Nissan deal should be made plain and clear as too how much money is being filled under "miscellaneous " by the National Audit Office, then ALL other businesses should be able to access these funds.

If Call Me Dave had made an effort to get of his plump arse and head upto Redcar, when the steel works was forced to shut because CMD wouldn't give a backhander to keep them afloat like der kopf has just done, then I reckon Brexit vote wouldn't have happened.

TMH is that a serious question ?

Yes it is and I am still confused

Cost of production lower today for cars sold outside the UK, ie most of them.

You may well be correct but pls explain as

Steel priced in € or $, engines in €,

So more expensive versus

wages and premises costs in £ -> product sold in €

Better, I get that. But they report in either € or Yen supposedly. So every £ earned is worth less to Nissan in the end. I may well be missing something here, so pls elaborate but my point was whether the company benefits after translation gains

Financial services news was bad last night with view expressed that passporting was almost a gonner.

So hit to FS and we have to be rogered by Nissan for them to start. The weird worlds of Brexshit.

So nicola sturgeon comes out a meeting with the government saying they have no clue how Brexit will work.

Yet somehow Nissan have been assured that Britain will retain access to the single market and they've decided to remain and grow in the UK. And no cash incentive was offered for this

[img] [/img]

So nicola sturgeon comes out a meeting with the government saying they have no clue how Brexit will work.

And as Nissan is part owned by French government, somehow they will know details of the deal anyway, no point in keeping it secret from the EU!

[i]Why on earth would a minister divulge details of such an agreement at this time as we enter A50 ? A generality is all we should expect.[/I]

Because they're spending my ****ing money?

Because they're spending my ****ing money?

Because they're spending my ****ing money?

Once more the Mash unveils the truth 😉

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/british-pride-restored-by-grovelling-to-japanese-car-company-20161028116147

[quote=5thElefant ]So nicola sturgeon comes out a meeting with the government saying they have no clue how Brexit will work.
Must remind her of her IS plans.

IS is irrelevant. Have you honestly seen anything from the tories that suggests they have even the smallest clue about what they're doing?

IS is irrelevant.

Put her in charge of Brexit, see if she does any better. It's a poisoned chalice just like IS will be.

It may wel be a poisioned chalice however we , the people on whose behalf they act, desrve to know - for thwy will have to tll the EU in negotiations- what they want

We will argue for X its a negotiation we hope to get everything but its complicated due to the number of nations and we may need to compromise in certain areas to get the best deal for the UK. They can even add we wont compromise on X - probably free movement of people- if they wish.

Not hard

they do not say this because they neither speak with one voice on this or have a clue what they want to argue for

Its not because its a secret its because it's unknown

Its not because its a secret its because it's unknown

And as Nissan is part owned by French government, somehow they will know details of the deal anyway

Exactly, so the French government gets to know about May's amazing 'plan'. But the taxpayer who foots the bill is kept in the dark,
WE TOOK BACK CONTROL!

Im really excited about what dazzling display of legal machinations we come up with in the negotiations 🙄

Greg Clark was extremely evasive in QT last night but when pushed he said that no cheque book was involved ie, no financial compensation was given to Nissan. I doubt that this is true and there should be transparency on the issue. There may be a good reason to fund Nissan - but lest be clear what it is and what the economics of the deal involve.

It's has SFA to do with A50. That is a smokescreen.

At the moment, the only difference pre and post Brexshit vote is that it appears that Nissan has received further incentives to do something it was already doing. I cannot see how that is better than before. Would be happy for some enlightenment....

Its not because its a secret its because it's unknown

I suspect that, like everything else so far, its because the main focus is on what best serves the Tory party, and their mates, rather than what best serves the nation as a whole. This will become evident with every piece of 'information' that squeaks out, but for now the less everyone knows, the better.

This Taking Back Control lark is bloody brilliant, isn't it? Hurray for democracy!

Mr Overshoot why not ask your American directors how they would feel about a supreme court based in Mexico and the US paying billions of dollars to Mexico and Canada in aid so that they could export more to the US than the US exports to them. Many Americans don't even like Federal Law having precedence over State Law never mind "foreigners" calling the shots.

Doesn't seem like you really understand this thing called co-operation, do you Jam?

The US gets to trade freely and work with people from most of its inhabited continent, and that gives it a good position. Why shouldn't we do the same with ours?

Manifest destiny was done for a reason. Because they knew a big country with diverse assets would make them stronger and help them grow. So by holding them up as an example you are simply proving the point about the advantages of size.

So best bet is to keep quiet until it is known.

Its fair enough to accuse our leaders of a lack of leadership and clarity in what is a HUGE issue with massive ramifications for individuals, businesses, the nation and BOTH unions.
We deserve to know and we certainly deserve to know more than Nissan

Please feel free t practice what you are preaching
Its fair enough to accuse our leaders of a lack of leadership and clarity in what is a HUGE issue with massive ramifications for individuals, businesses, the nation and BOTH unions.
We deserve to know and we certainly deserve to know more than Nissan

We know they didn't see this coming. We know there was no plan. We know they only got the chalice a little over 3 months ago.

The government should keep quiet until it has figured out what to do, not confirm they're running around like headless chickens.

Considering the people responsible for this huge steaming turd of a situation have been filling their lives with fantasies about this moment, now that its finally come they seem very reticent to describe exactly what it is they've been dreaming about for all these years.

The more cynical might assume they're just a bunch of reactionary ****-wits who rail against everything, bacause they're only happy when they're moaning, but have neither the vision or the wit to come up with an alternative

The Tories still aren't sure how to capitalise on this and get that majority in the next GE are they? Now that they have realised that 'kill all foreigners' isn't going to outfox people for much longer, they are resorting to buying votes in Sunderland. Whatever next?

not confirm they're running around like headless chickens.

Too late for that!!

I suspect that, like everything else so far, its because the main focus is on what best serves the Tory party, and their mates

Definitely this. They've effectively used the brexit vote to execute a land-grab for unaccountable executive power. Not only is the government bypassing and excluding parliament from it's brexit plans, it's now cooking up backroom deals with industry and flagrantly refusing to tell anyone what was agreed. Take back control indeed.

The circle jerk of negativity continues at pace I see. Take all good news and mix with bile until you are consumed with bitterness.

All tiresomely predicable, molgrips you wonder why there is no discussion ?

All tiresomely predicable, molgrips you wonder why there is no discussion ?

If you can't discuss something without most people taking up a contrary position - doesn't that tell you something? That you might actually be wrong?

We WANT a discussion. We really do. You (and the Tories) aren't giving us one!

Are you seriously trying to pass off the fact we have paid Nissan to continue doing what they already were to compensate for Brexit as a positive?

The circle jerk of negativity continues at pace I see. Take all good news and mix with bile until you are consumed with bitterness.

All tiresomely predicable, molgrips you wonder why there is no discussion ?

Should we 'just rejoice' instead Jammers

[img] [/img]

What good news Jamba? Go on - one single piece of good news from this shambles