[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

I need to have a think about my manifesto first

Then when you win just say, "that was probably a mistake" or "we never said how many weather girls, you're not three years old". Could always go for, "No need to rush into this weather girl thing. You'll still have a great relationship with your wife, just a bit different. Maybe".

"No need to rush into this weather girl thing. You'll still have a great relationship with your wife, just a bit different. Maybe".

The scale of the re-negotitions are mind boggling

In my area of science we got about 10bn from the EU
Our institute thats 1 in 5 staff's salaries
some institutes like the EBI in cambridge are almost entirely EU funded
When Switzerland pulled out of Schengen the government stepped in to replace most of what they lost, as well as covering the cost of the Erasmus exchange programme, >25million for that (can we see our uber-rightwing new government doing that?)
Life sciences also includes 5,000 companies employing 200,000 people in the UK, generating an annual turnover of £60bn, all fed into from the universities and institutes now hobbled by the EU no-mans land we are in.
Every year, UK universities generate over £73 billion - £3.7bn of which is generated by students from EU countries, supporting 380,000 jobs

What is really really hard to gauge is the effect it will have on collaborative work, it is an absolute lynchpin of science and one of the reasons that we are £ for £ the most prolific scientific research producing country in the world, if we are shut out, as switzerland have been, we will be stuffed.
Today there were a lot of skype meetings going on between department heads with their collaborators accross Europe

What scares me is that whoever does the negotiations on this better know what the **** they are doing
THe Genomics England Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genomics_England is a case in point- Illumina were able to convince Jeremy Hunt & David 2 Brains Willets to use their preferred technology to sequence 100,000 human genomes, by the time that some proper scientists were involved it was too late to explain that using different techniques it could have been the 1000000 genomes project for the same price.
Science will have to lobby furiously to make sure that our voice is heard

Anyway this is just one aspect of our relationship with the EU, we need to figure out where it will go, 2 years doesnt seem very long to make this all work as for, immigration, security, finance, ......

As I recall (and someone will correct me I'm sure) exports to the UK is 5% of the rest of Europe's economy, while exports to Europe is 15% of ours. I wonder where the power in the exit negotiations is going to be?

IGM - Aren't 5% of 27 countries combined exports likely to be worth more than 15% of the UK's?

You sound like some of my EFL students, igm. It's fifty% not fifteeeeen%.

I don't really see what other options people have

I at least will hopefully have the option of correcting my error from two years ago and voting Yes in the next Scottish Indy Referendum: Waiving goodbye to my "I ****in haate foreigners" chums all too prevalent on the other side of Hadrian's wall

+1

The sooner we're away from them the better. I feel sorry for the decent half down south being left to deal with it

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153808771252861&id=585627860&notif_t=like&notif_id=1466804004521731&ref=m_notif

Sootyandjim - yes in absolute terms, but it's 5% of the total of the 27 countries which is probably more what matters really. Each country will sit there thinking this is worth 5% to me and I'm not going to lose the whole of that 5%. We're looking at losing 15% - though equally we won't lose all of it

Edukator - I thought it was 50-60% of UK exports not the UK economy. Could be wrong.

Cchris2lou - broken link?

Evan Davis almost apoplectic win Hannan over freedom of movement on Newsnight.

After the NHS BS earlier.

The lies are more brutally exposed now.

I at least will hopefully have the option of correcting my error from two years ago and voting Yes in the next Scottish Indy Referendum: Waiving goodbye to my "I ****in haate foreigners" chums all too prevalent on the other side of Hadrian's wall.

Quite right. If I were you, I'd tell us to go screw ourselves as well.

interesting discussion there on the scottish view point bewtween ming campbell, tom devine and henry mcleish there on stv, essentially saying chill out a bit. most interesting, henry mcleish saying he's going to give serious consideration to joining the independence movement.

Unsurprisingly the French at Calais are suggesting border controls could be moved to the UK's side of the Chanel.

That'll please a certain faction of the leave vote.

That's good we could take control of them #fakecontrol

igm - Member
Unsurprisingly the French at Calais are suggesting border controls could be moved to the UK's side of the Chanel.

That'll please a certain faction of the leave vote.

someones not thought this through!

The sooner we're away from them the better. I feel sorry for the decent half down south being left to deal with it

I thank-you, it's rare that we are ever described as the decent half.

Last time around I thought the Scot's were crazy for wanting to pull away but after today I realise I was wrong and wish you all the best.

Well, it's been an interesting day. Customers who were firm No voters in Indyref#1 are now hopping mad and definitely up for a Yes vote in Indyref#2. One's a minister, who used some very un-religious language about Cameron, Farage et al. And a phone call from an elderly woman in England about recumbent trikes, which also veered into how she wanted to move to Scotland now.

seosamh77 - yep, it's a real no sit Sherlock moment for that fraternity. But they probably won't realise for some time yet.

seosamh77 - Member
interesting discussion there on the scottish view point bewtween ming campbell, tom devine and henry mcleish there on stv, essentially saying chill out a bit. most interesting, henry mcleish saying he's going to give serious consideration to joining the independence movement.

I wish I had seen that. Having been a passionate believer in both unions, but sadly that is not to be. I said on another thread I can understand the calls for a referendum on Scottish independence, it is now not possible to be in both unions which greatly saddens me. If I have to choose between one or the other, I would like the dust to settle on this to truly see which is the best path forward.

The UK is not apparently what I believed it to be, however also one of the largest economies leaving the EU will have a detrimental effect on the EU.

I want to make sure that Scotland does not turn up at the Euros after everyone has gone home.

@chickenman & boardinbob: I was absolutely dead set against a Scottish independence vote as I would have been ashamed to have seen the dismantlement of the U.K. in my life time. However, I am now utterly utterly ashamed of the government's behaviour as well as 52% of the population's gullibility and short sighted xenophobic vote; I wish you well. Just do me a favour and if you get to stay in Europe, please remind them every now and again that not every Brit stuck two fingers up at them yesterday.

One thing I find almost unbelievable is how Cameron learned absolutely nothing about how to conduct a positive campaign. He got away with a negative campaign once, however the negativity surrounding this vote reached a new low.

I want to make sure that Scotland does not turn up at the Euros after everyone has gone home.

I'm more of a rugby man, but as I understand it, they won't be turning up at any point in the proceedings.

So those for iScotland now, are you happy to take the Euro then?

I'm getting over it.

Pass the popcorn, I'm hoping the soap opera gets really juicy.

One thing that I do quite like about Cameron's decision making is to come out and say he's going, which he had to do, but in three months time, which he didn't. Reading between the lines of what he said, he's not going to be the one to invoke Article 50, that'll be a matter for his successor. And if a week is a long time in politics, then three months is at least a bit of breathing space for everyone involved to let the hysteria pass and have a bit of a think of how to sort it all out. Maybe.

athgray, fair play to ye fella.

http://player.stv.tv/episode/3avo/scotland-tonight/scotland-tonight/

fast forward to 17.40.

dragon - Member
So those for iScotland now, are you happy to take the Euro then?

fwiw, same as last time, I think the currency is irrelevant, its how you run the economy. The pound isn't looking a particularly good long term option. people will laugh at ye if you try that yin again.

dragon
What currency I use does not really bother me. A gripe I had first time around was the arrogant assumption that we would have a currency union with the UK because it was our pound.

That ambiguity was an achiles heel for the indy side imo. That has been taken away. It seems like we would use the Euro.
I personally have no problems with that.

The new achiles heel for indy may well be the current oil price. We will have to see.

Seosamh, I may on occasion seem rude, for that I apologise. I am fairly saddened right now. I am not saying I would vote indy, but have to now give it a fair crack of the whip. I would like to make a reasoned decision based on how this result pans out. I do not wish to rush into anything, however if I am considering a switch then it it may be a distinct possibility.

Assuming (most) people didn't vote against their own interests, then the folk who are going to have to 'make it work' in terms of foreign markets, funding etc. will by definition be those who voted to remain.

I don't mean this in any disparaging way, but it seems that the key demographic(s) behind the exit vote are far more likely to rely on jobs created by others.

You get to replace the oil price with a market of 450million people, the argument is shooty in next time, tbh next time it's not about having an argument, it's about presenting a proper case and preparing for government. i agree it was lacking last time. I doubt that will happen again. It's been getting worked on and I think there will be alot of people coming in that will add alot to that.

There is no certainty in the uk, that goes to the EU now, that's the known quantity.

If the uk wants to keep scotland they need to come up with a solution that allows scotland to exist in both the EU and the UK. If that's not possible tatty bye, their case is piss poor, it's 1000 times worse that the scottish out vote in 2014.

So those for iScotland now, are you happy to take the Euro then?

Yes, though I was happy to last time too. I think that was a miscalculation by Yes last time, should have just said that there's option 1,2,3 for the currency instead of trying to insist that option 1 would definitely happen.

I will add that I have absolutely no regrets in how I voted in both referendums. I did not vote in the scot ref to be a member of the EU. I voted to be in both.

Perhaps come a second indy ref swithering No/Remain voters are good to keep it honest.

I will add that I have absolutely no regrets in how I voted in both referendums. I did not vote in the scot ref to be a member of the EU. I voted to be in both.

I completely respect that - and if I had thought that Westminster was democratic enough, I'd probably have agreed with you in the first Indyref.

Athgray, everyone is always welcome to join in, there will be disagreements, but aye, I'd hope it's an internal scottish discussion and we all come to a fair consensus with a big majority. I've always said, after last time, I'd prefer a larger consensus rather than 50%+1.

I voted Yes in indyref and remain on Thursday. I am actually more gutted by the EU result that the indyref result. I think rushing into an indyref2 would be a mistake, we need to wait for things to settle down to we see what's what. I think we will only have one more chance to do this so best to make sure we do it right and convince a lot more people to get on board.

seosamh
Just watched the STV video. Thanks for the link, it was very informative.
I felt that Menzies Campbell was a bit out of synch with the public view with a bit of political point scoring. Interesting comments from Henry McLeish and Tom Devine. Caution has to be the watchword. I certainly want to know what I will be voting for. If Nicola Sturgeon shows a degree of patience she may well have my vote in an indy ref. Henry McLeish closely echoes the way I feel. I had a great deal of respect for him during the indy ref.

km79 +1

aye campbell was, its was particularly the 2 you mention that i ment had the better discussion, glad you picked that. by the sounds of sturgeon today i think she will play it smart.

I also voted Yes in the last indyref,and remain on Thursday. Now is time for cool heads. There is no nothing to be gained by rushing to another indyref within months,but there's a theory that it might be best to hold one within the period required for the UK to negotiate its exit from the EU, to capitalise on the uncertainty surrounding the future of the UK. I am not sure whether to do that or aim for later. I am now sure that there will be another indyref

Well listening to all the
Get over it and get on posts here we go...

Based on the scant info so far (mostly the winning side looking slightly scared and back tracking) one of the key themes mentioned was the need to unpick all of that nasty EU Law that is killing the UK. So First off the block Make sure that your MP isn't going to just rubber stamp getting rid of stuff they don't like.
A process where all laws being removed as EU should be replaced with an identical UK one unless it's fully debated.

Lobby that the exit negotiating team are cross party.

Push for a bill that means the next elected official making unsubstantiated claims be strung up in the tower for a month.

Appoint an independent body to scrutinise the process of exiting and to report to the UK public honestly and quickly.

mikewsmith
'locking the gate after the horse has already bolted' springs to mind.

Not sure how much traction stringing lying polititions in the tower will have.

[quote=thegreatape ]One thing that I do quite like about Cameron's decision making is to come out and say he's going, which he had to do, but in three months time, which he didn't. Reading between the lines of what he said, he's not going to be the one to invoke Article 50, that'll be a matter for his successor. And if a week is a long time in politics, then three months is at least a bit of breathing space for everyone involved to let the hysteria pass and have a bit of a think of how to sort it all out. Maybe.

It's certainly an interesting play when you consider the implications. It would have been very difficult for him to stay on and say we're not going to invoke article 50 for 3 months - and failing to comment at all on the timetable would have been horrendous in terms of uncertainty. So the only possible way for him to create a significant delay was to fall on his sword - it looks like him being chicken, but whilst Juncker and his mates might get upset at the delay before anything happening there's little they can do about it. Maybe it is a last throw of the dice - because a lot can change in 3 months, not least that a lot of the Leave voters will have been on their holibobs and found everything more expensive.

The crucial thing here is that assuming BoJo is the heir apparent, then whilst he led the Leave campaign, the indications are that his preference would be to stay in and renegotiate. So it's just a question of whether Juncker and pals can be circumnavigated and those controlling their purse strings can be persuaded of the merits of keeping us in.

Whatever everybody is saying right now, this referendum still isn't binding and nobody has yet initiated the process of leaving the EU.

mikewsmith
'locking the gate after the horse has already bolted' springs to mind.

Not sure how much traction stringing lying polititions in the tower will have.

It was mostly a response to the leave get over it and get on bunch who have just moved from TAKE BACK CONTROL to GET OVER IT whenever they get asked a (was going to say tough) question.

GrahamS - Member
By doing what? What have you done today to embrace the challenges?

I've hugged my foreign friends and told them that it will be alright. 🙁

kimbers - Member

The scale of the re-negotiations are mind boggling

In my area of science we got about 10bn from the EU

Over what timescale?
Just that £10,000,000,000 is more than we get back each year and I'd like to keep it factual.