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There are loads of reasons to leave. They may not seem good to you but that is subjective and depends on what you see as worthwhile or not.
For example controlling Freedom of Movement is a good reason to many people. The fact very little would change afterwards is irrelevant, the control aspect is important to them.
Add up all the reasons people have and you can see why they voted leave. They may not have done cost/benefit analysis or looked at it in depth but people don’t typically do that.
If you have a democracy and let people vote that is the risk.
What seems completely missing though is the complete lack of any commitment to what would be delivered (in this case with FOM control) or expectation that this should be provided.
Take FOM (as per your example).."We will have an Australian style points system"
but I don't see any document defining this in detail. Brexiters seem happy it will be a points system that works for THEM.... no-need to see the details.
To make this even BIGGER .. we have been promised trade deals. Why haven't we seen the agreed trade deals? I know we can't sign them yet but nothing stops anyone with access to the foreign countries writing them and getting an agreement in principal. (Boris or Nigel could have done this*... they could have gone to Trump or any one of these countries just can't wait to sign a trade deal and written one...) Yet they have been to India and been told "we want visas" and the US "we want the NHS and chlorinated chicken" and failed to produce a deal they would dare share with the electorate.
*You don't need any official capacity to get a piece of paper from a keen prospective partner. Nigel for example could have returned with a deal in principal ... a "if I am elected I will sign our half"
Because every potential trade partner is waiting to see just how fubared the country is after B-Day, before dictating their terms to us. Imagine a vulture, circling a weakly grunting wildebeest lying on the plains, nursing a broken leg from a failed bid to cross the crocodile infested river unharmed.
Right now, because of the strong possibility of impending no-deal, we have no leverage, none, nada.
YouGov (@YouGov) Tweeted:
In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?
Right - 40%
Wrong - 49%
https://t.co/bMZl9iUJ4f https://t.co/GxJ9kV37dN https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1179345301179715585?s=17
Because every potential trade partner is waiting to see just how fubared the country is after B-Day, before dictating their terms to us. Imagine a vulture, circling a weakly grunting wildebeest lying on the plains, nursing a broken leg from a failed bid to cross the crocodile infested river unharmed.
Right now, because of the strong possibility of impending no-deal, we have no leverage, none, nada.
Yeah I get that BUT
they (Brexit supporters) are telling me countries will be falling over themselves to do a fantastic deal with us ... it doesn't seem to worry them at all that we didn't get any offers they dare share...or that if we actually had one it would be a hard bargaining chip to use with the EU ???
OR .. "we can control our own borders with an Australian style points system" ...
So where exactly is this points system?
"well we can't do it now the EU stops us"
"Yeah (perhaps)... but surely it must already be written - why didn't they share it and show us how it will work?
"we will write it after Brexit"... "the most important thing is to leave"
If PM BoJo put a re-heat ex-PM May's deal to the Parliament this time I am afraid all the remain MPs will vote it through, because they fear if they don't vote for it this time their remain hope with a deal will be taken away. In this case they will blame for not voting for the deal and as a consequences will be voted down in the next GE. Therefore, they have to tow the PM BoJo line and know their place by voting it through. In the next GE PM BoJo will win hands down having deliver "a deal" (assuming he gets a deal with EU).
The only way the opposition will come out of this smelling like a rose is to hope EU rejects whatever PM BoJo propose then go for a GE. At least this gives the oppositions a chance to win in the next GE.
Interesting time ...
p/s: any deal PM BoJo gets means the opposition will not have a chance to win any GE for at least 3 terms. See ... you wish for a deal you will be out in the cold for a very long time.
p/s: any deal PM BoJo gets means the opposition will not have a chance to win any GE for at least 3 terms. See … you wish for a deal you will be out in the cold for a very long time.
even by your own standards chewy, thats bonkers
even by your own standards chewy, thats bonkers
The only issue that unites the remain oppositions now is the fear of no deal but if PM BoJo takes away that fear i.e. achieve a deal with EU, then the remain oppositions will disintegrate as they have no more common cause to go for.
Forget about the oppositions' policy that will be promised to the people in the next GE because nobody will really give them a thought as they are still riding the PM BoJo waves. (if PM BoJo can make good his promise as in Tory Conference ...)
mrmonkfinger
Member
BBC impartiality my arse.
On the same day, it was referred to as the "Brexiteer Broadcasting COmpany" in a speech at the conference. Funny old world.
I forgot just how good/prescient "The Day Today" was, this could be our very own Brexit minister Stephen Barclay
The only issue that unites the remain oppositions now is the fear of no deal but if PM BoJo takes away that fear i.e. achieve a deal with EU,
the deal he's mocked up is a non-starter, even if by some miracle he got it through- the EU wont agree & even with the DUP & ERG he has still has no majority! , he's polling 10% behind May!!, many of those that would back him to leave would not trust him beyond that (see Labour leavers & scots)
they (Brexit supporters) are telling me countries will be falling over themselves to do a fantastic deal with us
The only things that will be listened to is any matching opinions that confirms their membership of the Leave Club is the right and proper thing to do.
Facts will not be considered, ever, don't bother.
the deal he’s mocked up is a non-starter, even if by some miracle he got it through- the EU wont agree & even with the DUP & ERG he has still has no majority! , he’s polling 10% behind May!!, many of those that would back him to leave would not trust him beyond that (see Labour leavers & scots)
It will be a bad deal regardless.
The next GE should be very interesting.
so the plan is.........
1(ish - which means 2) year transition to-
NI effectively staying in the single market (EU/Ireland will take that)- but Stormont (DUP) get to vote it down if they dont like it every 4 years (that will not fly with EU / Ireland)
But NI leaves the CU and checks are carried out away from border (still requires some custons checks nearby) but most handled by technology (that doesnt yet exist) & in Irish sea (surprised DUP agreed last bit) (either way wont fly with EU as its a gift to smugglers)
IF this is the basis for further compromise & more concessions on CU were given by Johnson & control not ceded to DUP, it might even get approved by EU & maybe Ireland, cant see how Labour would vote for us out of CU & SM tho- at the mercy of Trump FTA, Would it carry enough votes with DUP, Labour leavers, Tory rebels & presumably DUP??
As I said very surprised the DUP signed up to this
Im not even sure they know what theyve agreed to!
https://twitter.com/GeorgeWParker/status/1179404545698516992
At same time as introducing checks between Eire and NI from what I read.
Has he managed to both break the GFA and place a border in the Irish Sea with the same plan?
But surely border checks are specifically illegal under the GFA even if parties are willing to accept them?
Not illegal as such
but the GFA was a finely balanced fudge, it only exists because of the consent given by both sides, allowing people to feel part of NI &/or ireland as they choose and all that was only really possible because Ireland & NI were part of CU & SM- wouldve been impossible to create that outside of them
It does break the governments own brexit legislation which promised no border in ireland
ahhh now I see why the DUP are down with this
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1179400445111996417
Waiting for the new Irish Border plan......
An electric moot filled with snakes
a massive new cash bung (of potentially billions) to be agreed, being called a 'New Deal for Northern Ireland'
Yeah it's in Boris' letter
The magic money tree has another bumper harvest
Sharp spikes, surely he meant moot points.
When did you swap from out to in, Eddiebaby? And why? Just curious, being willing to change your mind is a quality.
eddiebaby
Member
Out.
Posted 3 years ago
eddiebaby
Member
I was chatting yesterday with a guy in the village I like. He rides bikes has done a few LEJOGs since he retired a bit early, is starting an open university course in environmental studies and most importantly had a custom tourer built locally and road the Tour Divide last year. Top bloke.
Turns out he is very probrexit.
I’m amazed and find it hard to process. As we were in a public social situation I didn’t start an argument, but blimey.
Posted 6 hours ago
Sharp spikes, surely he meant moot points.
Oh very good indeed!
When did you swap from out to in, Eddiebaby? And why? Just curious, being willing to change your mind is a quality.
Is this your new hobby EK ? Trawling through 3yr old posts, trying to find fault. People become informed and change their minds, it happens all the time .
Is this your new hobby EK ? Trawling through 3yr old posts, trying to find fault.
Are you new here?
Are you new here?
Why, haven't you checked?
Have you changed your mind yet, Taxi?
Taxi25 is a remainer no?
Not unless he's changed his mind since the start of this thread, Molgrips.
I think this was discussed before EK. I'm not going to repeat myself ad infinitum.
It was stated but not discussed, Taxi. I've changed my mind too, my preference used to be remain, then soft Brexit, then hard Brexit, then no deal. It's changed to remain first followed by no deal and then anything else. That change is due to the clear attempt to gain unfair advantage through Brexit and the fact I don't see why the UK should have a banking passport if it's not in the EU, no deal avoids those two problems in the event Brexit happens which I still hope it won't, and it hasn't yet.
Things have changed and I fully understand that after three years people understand the issues better. But what made you change your mind to the point you'd now risk an argument discussing Brexit with a Brexiteer (Eddie's case)? Same goes for Eddiebaby what are the thing that have made remain more appealing than it was three years ago?
Ed, don't get personal.
Why? Will you start calling me a "prick" again, Molgrips, like you did on the iDave thread, when you were a fan and I had enough experience to see he was a charletan. How about you stop ordering people around and let them get on with discussing why they changed their minds. You have a huge history of getting personal including petty insults. I've asked some pertinent non-insulting questions, I'd be interested in the answers to. This whole thread is about freely expressed personal views, in or out and why is what the thread is all about. Or are you a mod now?
If people are changing their minds then when and why? When two ardent leavers become reaminers that's interesting.
Nobody has to explain themselves to you EK. People post as they see fit, sometimes it's their own views other times their just expressing the views of other's, views they might agree or disagree with. You seem to have a problem with that concept in particular.
I agree with your first sentence, Taxi, the questions go unanswered, no problem.
Fascinating watching the Boris speech at the conference on TV. The audience was described by Madame as a mass of middle-aged white males in blue suits with a few token women (which the camera man seemed very keen to show). Industrial quantities of lying by omisison in the content.
Oh for the Love of God its another of those plans that everyone signs then resigns the day after when they read what they've signed.
Back on to Theresa's Turd to kick the effing turd further up the road in a vain hope someone drops a solution into their lap.
Still got to actually sort out the long term Unicorn/Fairy position.
Anyway if Boris gets the MP's to vote for it and it passes he can then proceed with no deal as he doesn't have to comply with the Benn act and all he has to do is scupper the other part of the legislation that is required to actually implement the deal.
How about you stop ordering people around
It's just friendly advice, that's all.
Edukator - you do come over as antagonistic and preachy ( I know - pot kettle black)
Anyway if Boris gets the MP’s to vote for it and it passes he can then proceed with no deal as he doesn’t have to comply with the Benn act
And of course the MPs know this and have been sharpening their knives for ages.
Just catching up on today's offerings.
1. Brexit Patriots. So if 10% turn out that's 180000. That means there are 1.8m in total. What happening to the 17.4m?
2. chewkw, it's "TOE the line".
Good night.
This proposal is of course complete rubbish and does not even come close to meeting the EUs red lines. they are just being polite / playing the game of pass the blame.
They’re just making it look like they’re doing something while they run down the clock to no deal, which has been their preferred destination from day 1.
They don’t want a deal. Never did. But they can’t just sit doing nothing forever - or until the end of October.
They’ve done nothing for weeks, then offered up something they knew would be immediately knocked back (for very good reason).
Another week closer to their No Deal nirvana
“The reaction of the Brexit steering group was not positive”
Guy Verhofstadt, European Parliament’s Brexit Steering group chair says Britain’s latest Brexit proposals do not have “the safeguards Ireland needs” https://bbc.in/2n5AgrG
Land border for goods? Sea border for goods? No, let’s give the people and businesses of Northern Ireland both to deal with! And let’s buy DUP support by giving them a veto on those remaining measures to keep goods moving that we’re not tearing up ourselves. When it comes to maintaining harmony with the rest of Ireland… you can trust the DUP… honest.