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Johnson and Cummings are going to blow them out of the water, and a 12 point lead (or whatever) is their base to build from, not a lead that will be greatly eroded
You have a point. Effectively they are already campaigning , with constant tidbits of spending. Just enough to lube to proletariat.
The team that the Conservatives have in place now is a campaigning team first and foremost, with a successful track record and no morals or scruples of any kind whatsoever.
yep Boris has been on the campaign trail since day 1 of his Premiership.
All the legal play and drama is just giving him more ammunition.
2 main reasons.
1. Anyone who wants Brexit will be voting for Johnson as they see that as the best chance of it being implemented (whether a no deal, a dodgy unlawful one or whatever, as long as we leave the EU at all costs. A lot of people voted Brexit and for some reason it is that important to them
2. He is playing a populist game and the opposition are not as they think they have too much integrity. Politics has changed and populism clearly wins the votes and any parties that are not good at it will suffer – hence Tories 12 points in the lead.
and -
3. He's that funny fella from the telly that does daft things and has floppy hair. Doesn't seem too much like a politician and tells it like it is. I think he's on my side.
Also
4. Simple message "Get Brexit Done".
Politics has changed. In my (limited) history knowledge, populism has been winning the vote over integrity since circa ~90BC
Nothing much has changed for millennia. Thus is an interesting read.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_the_Roman_Republic
And his attitude towards the pharmaceutical industry is terrible, so I am out.
So who has the better proposition all round then?
Corbyn's Labour is full of flaws, but the fundamental point is that they want to make life better for more people. If I could choose a PM from any historical party leader then Corbyn would be quite far down the list. But I can't - my choices, realistically, are Corbyn or Boris ****ing Johnson. No brainer for me.
I don't think Johnson gives much of a shit about the pharmaceutical industry or indeed any other industry does he?
Somafunk – did you see the “I’m not racist but it’s about numbers and wages, if we were all on £1k a week”….
Dumb **** doesn’t realise
Without the context of the conversation I don't think it's fair to speculate on what he was actually specifically saying. He could as easily have just been arguing for the equivalent increase in the general standard of living. And if the way to achieve that was to get everyone in the country in work first so be it. Misguided it may be but I wouldn't call it inherently racist.
That aside, he was right. Remainers don't know what they are arguing for just as often as Leavers. Hand on heart how many of us knew the specifics of so many treaties before we voted? I know I never, I did know about a few industry related treaties and the common freedom of movement ones but wasn't all that clued up. I voted on gut feeling - filling in the blanks of my own knowledge - as much as any Leaver did.
Molgrips is right, we need to tone this down. It's not a compromise to moderate your language and engage in civil discussion. You can still hold the same opinions and values without compromising civility. Turning on folk achieves nothing.
Labour and Corbyn are not to be trusted.
Talk about build me up, knock me down.
A glimmer of hope grows dim.
Empowering the Labour Party members was a Corbyn myth. Everyone knows that now. I’m glad people inside the party are still fighting for FoM… but the reality is… if you live in a Labour/Conservative battle ground, that you have to pick which bunch of rich privileged untrustworthy game players promising to remove the right of ordinary workers to move across borders you want to gain an extra MP. For me, that is clearly Labour.
Millionaires Milne, Murray, McClusky and Corbyn don’t deserve our vote, even if we sympathise greatly with Labour members and what they believe their party should stand for. But Johnson & Co must be stopped. No Deal or the hardest of Brexits must be stopped. The new Conservative Brexit Party must be stopped. Even if you voted for the old Conservative Party… you have to realise that party is dead… and vote for whoever can stop the new era Tories in your seat… even if it could be misread as supporting the untrustworthy team currently with a firm grip on the Labour Party.
Molgrips is right, we need to tone this down. It’s not a compromise to moderate your language and engage in civil discussion. You can still hold the same opinions and values without compromising civility. Turning on folk achieves nothing.
As soon as the media coined the phrases leaver/remainer/remoaner/gammon this sorta blew the doors off , Brexit is a full pedal to the floor turn it up to 11 event and it’s going to be a hard job to put it back in the box.
It’s an uncivil war I’m afraid.
Both parties have now been taken over completely by extremists and zealots, who have no interest in opinions that differ from their own. Pluralism and pragmatism are dead, to be replaced by rigidly enforced idealogical purity, bordering on cultism.
You could say they're both as bad as each other - and they are - but for one significant diffrence...
Boris Johnson and his followers are now actively dangerous.
They are now speaking, and are fully embracing the language and methods of far right thuggery. And it looks like the intention is to ratchet this up further and further as the Brexit deadline approaches. Their denial that they are instigating violence is laughable. That is exactly what they're doing. And we already know that they regard the law as something that doesn't apply to them
The trouble is that once you start down this road, where does it end?
Nowhere good, thats for sure
I fear we have entered a very, very dark period that I never ever thought I'd see in this country.
Its getting pretty ****ing scary. Given the behavior of the likes of Cummings and Johnson so far, I dread what this next month will bring.
Judging by Marr this morning, we're dropping fully down the Trump rabbit hole now. Johnson (to keep calling him Boris seems to trivialise the danger and humanise his actions) in full denial 'I didn't say that', 'that didn't happen' mode.
Beggars belief that otherwise reasonable people believe this crap and can't (won't?) see through the game playing and doublespeak.
Corbyn’s Labour is full of flaws, but the fundamental point is that they want to make life better for more people. If I could choose a PM from any historical party leader then Corbyn would be quite far down the list. But I can’t – my choices, realistically, are Corbyn or Boris **** Johnson. No brainer for me.
I don’t think Johnson gives much of a shit about the pharmaceutical industry or indeed any other industry does he?
You can have the best of intentions and still make life worse for people than it was before. Those who profess to know the way to a one true promised land, usually do not. Corbyns view of the pharmaceutical industry in combination with his views on brexit would not make life better for people, he’d arguably make it worse than or at least as bad as Johnson. Pharma can just about deal with a no deal brexit, it cannot deal with what Corbyn is suggesting.
Judging by Marr this morning, we’re dropping fully down the Trump rabbit hole now. Johnson (to keep calling him Boris seems to trivialise the danger and humanise his actions) in full denial ‘I didn’t say that’, ‘that didn’t happen’ mode.
Beggars belief that otherwise reasonable people believe this crap and can’t (won’t?) see through the game playing and doublespeak.
Everyone loves a BBC voxpop … one on Radio4 earlier was some (I’m not calling him stupid) guy saying that Johnson (he called him Boris of course) wasn’t like other politicians, because they are all in it for themselves and lie and can’t be trusted, and Johnson isn’t like that.
We’re already down a Trump rabbit hole. And the media are riding along in its wake, enjoying the speed and excitement, and looking forward to the ‘passion’ that it is going to provoke. Oh for more boring times that didn’t feed the news economy so well.
Nothing much has changed for millennia.
It has changed completely since I became interested in politics in the 80's. Yes populism is not a new thing but UK politics has moved more towards it than it has been in my lifetime, especially in the last few years.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1177884628117577729
Looks like those Brexiters with the job of actually making Brexit work are, completely predictable, getting increasingly desperate.
Still, they need us more than we need them, I'm sure the EU will roll over and give up their project in order to further Johnson's aspirations anytime now.
So, our glorious new leadership team have worked out that we can’t be ready for no deal before the end of October, and we can’t get a deal sorted and ratified by the end of October, and we can’t have an election before the end of October… so all routes lead to failure… all that is left is to prepare for a post October election by blaming others for us not having left. Is it that simple?
The other option is to crash out with no deal and:
- £ plummets, v.good if you're ready for it
- blame industry for not preparing
- blame Parliament because you can
- blame the EU because you can
- blame remoaners for failing to come up with a solution
Under no circumstances admit you might have screwed up.
Both parties have now been taken over completely by extremists and zealots, who have no interest in opinions that differ from their own.
If you mean Labour, that's a flat out fabrication.
This country needs an about turn on lots of things, the only party getting anywhere close to that is the Labour party.
Flawed - maybe, but it's the best option for the country anything else is not going to stop the neoliberal onslaught that will carry on spiralling our country downwards way after Brexit.
Corbyn and Labour need a chance. They can't be written off before they've actually governed.
I hear stuff daily about how Corbyn is dangerous. Seriously? In the face of what we've got now ...
Remainers don’t know what they are arguing for just as often as Leavers.
Nonsense, reaminers know exactly what they are arguing for, they are living it right now. Leave is the unknown, but painfully predictable.
Freedom of movement and the Euro are ace. I spent this morning riding the Basque coast around Zumaia in Spain, had lunch in a restaurant and plucked a 10e note out of my wallet to pay, the same currency was thrown into the autoroute péage over the all but inexistant border in France on the way home - there's a sign to say France, the limit rises to 130kmh and that's it.
If you mean Labour, that’s a flat out fabrication
Not really. Momentum.
Would that be the open, tolerant, inclusive, non-extreme, broad church Momentum that tried to get shut of Tom Watson last week (in about as sneaky and undemocratic way imaginable) and today set about getting Margarate Hodge deselected?
Maybe the Labour Party, at this critical time, should be applying its energies a bit more usefully than in having a purge of non-believers?
And they wonder why they’re flatlining on 20% in the polls even against these lunatics!
Dominic Cummings must be laughing his tits off at the latest round of self-destructive and self-indulgent convulsions from the clueless Corbynites.
There’s no way any potential party of government would be carrying on like this.
Through indulging in this nonsense, he’s giving this shower of bastards a free run at crashing us out of the EU
I hear stuff daily about how Corbyn is dangerous. Seriously? In the face of what we’ve got now …
Do you think that scaring away one of the last major heavy industries (pharma) that we have, after brexit is going to be better than the neoliberal status quo?
Nonsense, reaminers know exactly what they are arguing for, they are living it right now. Leave is the unknown, but painfully predictable.
That's not the same as what I said.
We all know what the status quo is, that should be blindingly obvious. But what is the basis of the status quo? In Britain mind, not continental Europe.
That is the entire crux of how this became an issue in the first place, as a nation we were never engaged with the EU/EC/EEC thus vested interests could fabricate complete lies (bendy bananas) with impunity because nobody knew any better to call them out on it. MEP elections were treated as a joke and the elected members never held to any real scrutiny, if they were Farage would have been booted out after a single term. Then you have successive governments that people/papers demanded a referendum from (starting with the Lisbon Treaty in the Blair years IIRC).
The whole thing has been a **** up from beginning to end thanks to disengagement, a lack of education and a good undertone of British exceptionalism. And its still not ended, instead of trying to engage folk are just shouting at each other and for what? That's not going to help.
Ed is right, no borders and same currency is brilliant.
I have given up on the UK remaining.
The worst for me is loosing money if housing market falls but I have enough equity to be safe ish.
And of course hastle coming to visit family and friends.
I will worry about pensions later on.
The amount of people still supporting leave and it's consequences is quite depressing. So they can go to hell. I take great pleasure in winding them up and calling them thick and racist.
Remainers need to do the same and grow a pair.
binners
Subscriber
and today set about getting Margarate Hodge deselected?
Why do you say it's Momentum that's doing this?
(I think it's likely that it is; but it's not a foregone conclusion. A little evidence would be good. She's pissed off a lot of people in her time, including recently the labour right by changing her position on iraq, and at least one major union by encouraging tactical voting)
It was Momentum leader Jon Lansman who tried to get shut of Watson and set up this ridiculous reselection/deselection/trigger ballot nonsense, who’s only purpose is to remove any MP deemed as insufficiently loyal to the glorious leader.
You’d think, given where the country presently is, they might realise that it’s probably not the best time for a bout of vicious and divisive infighting?
As a country, we’ve got far bigger fish to fry. And time is a luxury we know we don’t have, given Johnson’s stated intentions of a crash-out no deal in a months time
The Corbynites are just proving they’re exactly the same as the Tory’s. Party before country, every time. In fact, it’s not even the majority of the party. Just their narrow sect.
Which is why we’re in this mess in the first place. They’re no different in their mindset to the ERG. Their own narrow self-interest trumps the future of the country.
thus vested interests could fabricate complete lies (bendy bananas) with impunity because nobody knew any better to call them out on it.
It wasn't all lies and came close to being law so not the example I'd put forward. Check out the history of EU law propositions on fruit misshapes. The laws which would have actually banned the sale of misshapes didn't pass but the proposition was real and it went to a vote.
There were euromyths a plenty I agree but also real debate about how much control the EU should have. The debate continues with each state trying to defend national interests. The good news is that the eurocrats have learned that there are limits to what can be imposed. The problem in Britain was the presentation with a consistent anti-EU bias and yes, people just swallowed it rather than check for themselves. For that there has been no excuse since about 2004 as the information has been just a click away.
Nobody said a lack of borders and a common currency wasn't great.
The amount of people still supporting leave and it’s consequences is quite depressing. So they can go to hell. I take great pleasure in winding them up and calling them thick and racist.
Remainers need to do the same and grow a pair.
Very easy to say at arms length. You're not the one having to live here.
The amount of people still supporting leave and it’s consequences is quite depressing. So they can go to hell. I take great pleasure in winding them up and calling them thick and racist.
A remain poster boy at his absolute pointy beard finest.
It wasn’t all lies and came close to being law so not the example I’d put forward. Check out the history of EU law propositions on fruit misshapes.
Fair enough but there you go, an excellent example of folk arguing passionately about something they have very little education in.
I agree with the rest of what you said.
A remain poster boy at his absolute pointy beard finest.
Pointy beard ?😁
Anyway , what's next for Johnson, he's winning the narrative of people Vs parliament (even though it's a fake one)
But how does he get past the Benn act ?
I suspect we’ll be seeing all kind of dodgy stunts pulled over the next month in an all-out assault on our democracy by Cummings.
I doubt very much that we’ve seen the last of the Supreme Court having to pass judgement on his shenanigans.
We still have #noboff to look forward to. Court scheduled for 4th and 8th October.
A serious question for any of the leavers on here - what is your view about an entire football team of judges unanimously finding that our prime minister has acted unlawfully?
Do the ends justify the means from your perspective?
Pointy beard ?😁
Its just a vision i had, pointy beard, dark rimmed designer glasses, skinny jeans , goes to bed dreaming of Jo Swinson and Corbyn in a hot tub...
That kind of remainer.
I'm the kind of remainer who proudly works in manufacturing... No beard unfortunately but I do have a pretty good understanding of how a supply chain works.
Freedom of movement and the Euro are ace.
Freedom of movement is a good idea in theory, but prior to 2007 nobody from the UK goverment got off their backsides and travelled to Eastern Europe. If they did they would have seen that the natives were earning a less than a third than we were for doing the same job, and they were having English lessons from 6 years of age.
With a bit of foresight many many problems could have been avoided.
With a bit of foresight many many problems could have been avoided.
Blaming the EU for our own skills shortage misses the point that the government(s) have failed to invest in apprenticeships & FE in the name of austerity for over a decade
Which is why non-eu migration has risen to match the EU migrants we've lost
If the Govt fails to deliver brexit or PM BoJo tries to reheat ex-PM May deal then I can see Conservative party decimated in the next GE. If this happens then it will take Conservative party a very very long time again to be significant. They have been warned. Therefore, PM BoJo knows the chances of him being the last Conservative PM in history is very high if he does not get it right. Conservative party is hanging on a very thin thread at the moment. 🤔
Tories are screwed if they do get us out
As no deal Brexit crashes the £ further and we all pay more for everything
People will realise they were conned, while Farage, Odey & Johnson's hedge fund backers make a killing off our misery
Pretty sure they wouldn't need to go to Eastern Europe to know what people are being paid.
It was a conscious decision to permit the A8 countries to have immediate access to our labour market to fill workforce demands and reap the economic benefits.
Like it's been a conscious decision to not utilize EU laws in regard to FoM.
Entirely the fault of the UK government.
Do you think that scaring away one of the last major heavy industries (pharma) that we have, after brexit is going to be better than the neoliberal status quo?
Go down your local sink estate and ask there. Or maybe pop into some of the homeless people's tents in your high street before they get kicked out in the morning.
Entirely the fault of the UK government.
Could someone explain how the arrival of pre-educated, fit, healthy EU people willing to do jobs British people don't want to do has been bad for the British economy or indeed bad for Britain.
Their employers aren't complaining
Their landlords aren't complaining
They are contributing more to social security than they are drawing
They improve the demographic balance
They invest in Britain (or did until their future was put in doubt).
Could someone explain how the arrival of pre-educated, fit, healthy EU people willing to do jobs British people don’t want to do has been bad for the British economy or indeed bad for Britain.
It's not all jobs that people didn't want to do though, just check out how the day's rates have dropped in the construction sector since cheaper EU labour arrived. Great on a macro economic viewpoint but no so good on a micro economic level.