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Tories are screwed if they do get us out
Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Therefore, a way to minimise the risk for PM BoJo is to "back" the people, at least this way they have a chance of more than half the population backing him/them.
Try to double cross the people again they will be gone! History! Gone! Do it I dare them! (in Samuel L Jackson's Pulp Fiction voice 😆)
Great on a macro economic viewpoint but no so good on a micro economic level.
Which is a failure of government
Scapegoating the EU for our own failings is what brexit is all about tho
Bercow as caretaker PM??? It's an idea that seems to be gaining some traction.
No pointy beard for me, and can't fit in skinny jeans either.
But enjoy your blue passports, not many more benefits to Brexit, or have I missed them?
Could someone explain how the arrival of pre-educated, fit, healthy EU people willing to do jobs British people don’t want to do has been bad for the British economy or indeed bad for Britain.
They are not jobs that British people did not want to do, they were jobs that British people could not afford to do. British people were not prepared to live 4 to a bedroom in order to be able to work for minimum wage, like many economic migrants did and continue to do.
You will always find people to do any job for the right money. But the wages were kept low because there was a constant stream of people coming in willing to work for three to four times plus currency change that their native country.
Im not blaming the migrants, id do the same but the powers that be should have identified this and acted on it before Farage’s momentum became unstoppable
They are not jobs that British people did not want to do, they were jobs that British people could not afford to do.
They are very often jobs British people did not want to do. When they chose their education and training they chose not to train as nurses, carpenters, plumbers, cooks... .
As for the building sector. In a country with a shortage of housing and a housing stock that needs completely overhauling to meet thermal insulation levels required to meet government promises on being carbon neutral in not many years it really is the UK government artificially driving up house prices, driving down standards and driving down labour prices with its own landlord and house builder (land bank owner) favourable fiscal policy and laws.
And to be fair on chris2lou He is French and ignorance & xenophobia have been front & centre of the brexit movement for some time- I have have EU colleagues upset by the blatant bigotry
When they chose their education and training they chose not to train as nurses, carpenters, plumbers, cooks… .
That's assuming every one has the opportunity or even the ability to train for whatever they want. I know plenty of people who've been in the building trade all their lives and are fit for manual labour only. In some less well of parts of the country there's still a shortage of that kind of job. A guy from Europe arrives who digs better holes for £20 a day less takes their job. Guess how they, their family and friends voted and will keep on voting.
Nationally, there is a shortage of workers in the construction industry. Of course, in many areas of the UK the opposite is true. Those coming to the UK to fill these roles tend to go the areas where there are shortages, and yes, they make themselves mobile when others won’t by accepting living standards that no one should have to put up with.
That’s assuming every one has the opportunity or even the ability to train for whatever they want.
This is a failing of government
Brexit fixes none of it, in fact makes it worse
Apprenticeship numbers collapsed after tories privatised Learndirect, FE outside of Uni has been neglected for decades.
It's far easier for government to scapegoat the EU than accept responsibility for their own mess.
Remarkably people fall for it & still think Johnson is looking out for them
A guy from Europe arrives who digs better holes for £20 a day less takes their job.
Then complain to your government not the EU as the British government is in full control.
Other European countires have legislated to prevent labour dumping and the UK can too. My local legislation say that people have to be be paid the minimum wage here wherever they come from and wherever they are employed so a Spanish company operating in France has to pay French labour rates not Spanish labour rates. It's up the UK government to legislate.
EU law says no racism, and discrimination on the basis of nationality is included in that EU legislation. Blame your UK government for not applying EU directives on discrimination.
This is a failing of government
Brexit fixes none of it, in fact makes it worse
Maybe you are right. But its not like those people were not warning the goverment. They had plenty of time to try and fix the problem but chose to ignore it. The people got fustrated and undervalued and thats how we ended up with Brexit.
Very true. Now, what happens next?
What happens next?
They replace all the EU migrants with brown people who they can pay even less.
They replace all the EU migrants with brown people who they can pay even less.
This.
But l dont blame anybody for voting Brexit, in reality what else could they do?
l dont blame anybody for voting Brexit, in reality what else could they do?
Very true.
Depending on where you live, your vote at every other national democratic event can be totally ignored. But again, how will Brexit help?
The “fed up of being ignored” vote was no doubt sizeable at the 2016 referendum. But what will be improved, beyond a temporary sense of being enabled, in the lives of those people when we leave the EU? And shouldn’t they be given the chance to confirm in a vote that the way we are leaving (cooked up without consulting them) is preferable to them against keeping EU membership. If they vote the same way, and we then leave, would that not give them further franchise?
There are plenty of reasons for people voting Leave in 2016. There are plenty of reason why people might vote that way again in another vote. But always beware anyone saying “the people have had their say, they must never have their say again”.
But l dont blame anybody for voting Brexit, in reality what else could they do?
Vote remain or abstain.
See Javid has been still saying the govt has a paln to avoid the Benn act. I'm assuming that this is just a ruse to force a VONC that they would lose to avoid BJ goin back on his claim of a guarenteed exit
The plan is probably to break the law, but to do so so close to the wire that the courts can not act fast enough. And then to argue that they acted in good faith and thought their cunning ruse would be ruled legal… after we’ve left the EU.
I dontthink the mind being forced to seek an extension
& just blame it all on parliament/ judges/ remoaners
its all about creating a division & making sure others get the blame
But l dont blame anybody for voting Brexit, in reality what else could they do?
What else could they do about what? Tabloids fear-mongering? Boris Johnson lying? What is the burning issue that ‘they’ needed to address?
And is that ‘issue’ a perception or a reality? I suggest that is the first and only port of call regarding ‘what to do’ in any situation. What say you?
Depending on where you live, your vote at every other national democratic event can be totally ignored
care to explain?
But l dont blame anybody for voting Brexit, in reality what else could they do?
Uhhhhh - join a political party, lobby for policies that help them and then vote for that party in a general election?
Instead of not voting or voting for raging Tory throbbers like Cameron and then complaining.
Depending on where you live, your vote at every other national democratic event can be totally ignored
care to explain?
First past the post innit? Unless you live in a marginal constituency your vote is not going to change anything.
Edit - two slow
Instead of not voting or voting for raging Tory throbbers like Cameron and then complaining.
The only thing their complaining about is that we haven't left yet.
And shouldn’t they be given the chance to confirm in a vote that the way we are leaving
They don't want another chance, they see another referendum purely as a mechanism to overturn the original vote.
It would be nice if the leavers here had the honesty to write "I" or "we" instead of "they.
They don’t want another chance, they see another referendum purely as a mechanism to overturn the original vote.
I repeat …
…always beware anyone saying “the people have had their say, they must never have their say again”.
Anyone pushing the idea that past votes can not and should not ever be “overturned” by subsequent ones need to be scrutinised. Always ask why.
“We are not leaving Europe, we are just leaving the EU”
https://twitter.com/foreignoffice/status/1178597896192700416?s=21
Maybe you are right. But its not like those people were not warning the goverment. They had plenty of time to try and fix the problem but chose to ignore it.
It's not a matter of time though ...it's a case of accepting that we may have to give up everyday luxuries like a coffee/tea on the way to work or someone else making their lunch, driving etc.
Ultimately someone has to make the tea/coffee/lunch and ultimately they also need to eat, live somewhere etc.
just check out how the day’s rates have dropped in the construction sector since cheaper EU labour arrived.
Your going to have to do some citation as there's little evidence that incoming migrant labour has pushed pay rates down ( though TBF that is as an average, not specific to the building industry ), despite it being intuitively logical.
We have almost full employment, and very high rates of employment before the referendum. In that environment, how could wages be pushed down?
Have you tried getting any trades in to do work on your house recently? I managed to summon a plumber eventually last year, the third British one I tried, after about 4 phone calls and several messages, then eventually I went and knocked on his door. Despite settling the bill promptly he didn't return a call from a colleague to service our boiler at work ( that turned in to a replacement ), and didn't return my messages to do another boiler service for me at home. Clearly he's charging too little if he has so much work he can afford to ignore requests from returning customers.
Anecdotal, but many I spoke to were pleased to have trades from the EU, because they actually answer the phone and turn up when they say they will.
One British guy who came to look at the boiler at work threw his toys out of the pram when we told him he would have to provide an invoice before we could pay him. Said he didn't want to do business with us. Same chap mentioned to one of our guys when he was here that he'd done 40 boiler replacements last year. Wonder how much tax he's paying? Dodgy ****.
@Del the effect of lowered wages has been shown by a few repeatable source but only at the lower end of the market.
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/
Other European countires have legislated to prevent labour dumping and the UK can too. My local legislation say that people have to be be paid the minimum wage here wherever they come from and wherever they are employed so a Spanish company operating in France has to pay French labour rates not Spanish labour rates
I think that's missing the point if the work in question is not minimum wage work.
A quick Google produced:
https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-wages/
So to an extent you are correct, but only to the same extent I am (:
Anecdotal, but many I spoke to were pleased to have trades from the EU, because they actually answer the phone and turn up when they say they will.
I know someone who voted leave for exactly this reason - he was fed up of loosing out on jobs to eastern Europeans because English employers assumed they would work harder for less money.
A serious question for any of the leavers on here – what is your view about an entire football team of judges unanimously finding that our prime minister has acted unlawfully?
The Prime Minister: "Proroguing parliament is nothing to do with brexit"
The Supreme Court: "You can't prorogue parliament for five weeks without good reason."
Leavers: "TRAITERS THWARTING ARE BREXT"
Which is it? Was the proroguing brexity or not? Can't have it both ways, it's schrodinger's advisory referendum all over again.
Do the ends justify the means from your perspective?
I don't understand the question here, you're going to have to explain what "ends" and "means" you're referring to.
About that end of October deadline that everyone knows is just a campaigning pledge, not something you can reliably plan your life/career/business around…
https://twitter.com/anguswalkertalk/status/1178624413543088131?s=21
A guy from Europe arrives who digs better holes for £20 a day less takes their job.
And that's the thing isn't it. If you're losing job opportunities because someone is better at it than you are, that's on you, no-one else. Doesn't matter whether the other person is from Poland, Bangladesh or Dudley.
They don’t want another chance, they see another referendum purely as a mechanism to overturn the original vote.
And why would they be concerned about that?
We're told constantly that it's "the will of the people." This being so, they should be not just welcoming another referendum but campaigning hard for it. It'd shut up those pesky remoaners for good and kill any opposition stone dead.
And if, in fact, it is no longer the will of the people, don't you think that it's rather important that we should find that out before continuing?
Because shouting the will of the people whilst knowing that it isn't would be somewhat dishonest, n'est-ce pas?
It became glaringly obvious to me some time ago that most of the people shouting about "democracy" and "sovereignty" don't actually care about either of those things, half of them demonstrably don't even know what the words mean. They just want to win.
Anecdotal and mostly London based:-
1. Plumber mate fed up with trying to run his one man plus apprentice business and keep family plus mortgage fed up with competing with Eastern Europeans quoting way below the going rate - so voted brexit.
2. Builder mate, runs small firm, fed up with trades wanting day rates equal to professional fees due to skills shortages, so happy with Eastern Europeans bringing costs down.
3. Me personally visit 100 plus construction* sites pa & see many sites dominated by Eastern European workers, so if supply has gone up, day rates must have come down. *big sites not housebuilders.
I can well believe that statistics tell another story but we all that they don't paint the full picture.
Me - staunch remainer but willing to understand brexiteers reasons
Anecdotal and mostly London based:-
1. Plumber mate fed up with trying to run his one man plus apprentice business and keep family plus mortgage fed up with competing with Eastern Europeans quoting way below the going rate – so voted brexit.
2. Builder mate, runs small firm, fed up with trades wanting day rates equal to professional fees due to skills shortages, so happy with Eastern Europeans bringing costs down.
3. Me personally visit 100 plus construction* sites pa & see many sites dominated by Eastern European workers, so if supply has gone up, day rates must have come down. *big sites not housebuilders.
I can well believe that statistics tell another story but we all that they don’t paint the full picture.
Me – staunch remainer but willing to understand brexiteers reasons
One way to deal with that would have been to increase the professionalism within the industry and force non-UK plumbers to undergo exams to work in the Uk as a plumber. If we made it like having to apply for equivalence with the GMC that would make it more difficult for many.
Would UK workers have to pass the same exams?
Would UK workers have to pass the same exams?
It’s simpler just to crash out of the EU without a deal. That’ll show them foreign plumbers.
Plumber mate fed up with trying to run his one man plus apprentice business and keep family plus mortgage fed up with competing with Eastern Europeans quoting way below the going rate – so voted brexit.
Hmm. That raises an interesting question. What defines 'the going rate'? In most businesses, the rate is set by supply and demand. How is this different? There are lots of jobs that don't earn enough to support a family. Why are plumbers any different?
This is partly devil's advocate but partly not. I mean everyone should get a living wage. But at the same time we are a market economy and it has to function as such to some extent.
My guess would be that yes, UK plumbers would have to take the same exams. If they are competent enough to do the work well and deserve them, they would have no problem.
The difference being that the UK plumbers could take that qualification at 16/18 as part of their state provided education.