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We must keep no deal on the table to show them we mean business.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1177884628117577729
So, someone complaining about lack of democracy and arguing for parliamentary sovereignty cites the Queen as part of the system they claim to support. Nice one.
The problem with this political discussion , from what i've read , is that its entirely voiced by 1 side only , so complete & utter retarded drivel can be spouted unchallenged , like this ....
Good point – but an election turns people on politicians, a referendum will turn people on on each other. Which scenario is better is up for debate, personally I would rather see people blame each other for this mess as opposed to politicians as the blaming the political establishment allows the public to ignore their role in creating this mess and dodge collective responsibility.
So your suggesting that the past 3 years of shambolic , ineffective , and self serving behaviour of Parliament from all parties is the fault of the electorate because of how they voted in the referendum ?
How selfish that those 17.4 million people couldn't just tow the line to fit in with the Westminister elites way of thinking eh ?
Heaven forbid we hold politicians accountable when we should blaming ourselves for daring to have a say on this country's future.
Yes , we deserve to suffer more for exercising our democratic rights , correct ?
Christ almighty , dumb doesn't even come close to describing this kind of sentiment.
It looks to me like you gents have been talking amongst yourselves for so long that you genuinely think the views expressed here are representative of the wider public.
This forthcoming general election with be the biggest reality check of all time
As you were , carry on 🙂
Ok, I’ll bite.
What kind of Brexit would you like to see? What problems do you envisage it solving? What are the positive arguments for it?
Please show your workings.
Fact is that most Leavers totally misunderstand UK parliamentary democracy. Boris and his cronies have tried to illegally circumvent the required scrutiny. Nice try, no dice. Now they have to go through the proper channels and convince people it is a good idea, when it is inherently a crock of shit. So ‘will of the people’ is not sufficient, I am afraid.
Go on, lay out the positives for us to understand, please.
Heaven forbid we hold politicians accountable when we should blaming ourselves for daring to have a say on this country’s future.
I agree completely. The voters share very little of the blame in this. They followed the debates, checked out the campaign messages, and then made a judgement as to who was proposing the best way forward for the UK.
@brownsauce… what does holding the likes of Gove & Johnson & Hannan & Raab & Patel to account look like now? Should we expect them to deliver what their campaign said in 2016? Or accept the bait and switch?
molgrips
Subscriber
So, someone complaining about lack of democracy and arguing for parliamentary sovereignty cites the Queen as part of the system they claim to support
But at the same time, has absolutely no problem with the Prime Minister either lying to the queen, or lying to everyone else in the entire world.
But at the same time, has absolutely no problem with the Prime Minister either lying to the queen, or lying to everyone else in the entire world.
This was one of the replies on the Facebook thread I found the nonsense on
"what they did is 1000 times worse than what boris did....this is all being controlled in the background by tony blair"
If anyone was still in any doubt that Johnson and Cummings are determined to crash us out without a deal so their dodgy disaster capitalist mates can make a killing, Phillip Hammond has pointed out this morning that that’s exactly what’s happening
https://twitter.com/nickcohen4/status/1177893835856367616?s=21
Let’s not forget … Johnson is using his “tactics” to deliver the exact opposite of what he proposed back in 2016…
Here is his campaign, and his paper, back then…
Anyone who voted Leave should be angry at this bait and switch.
What “the people” voted for… another reminder…
Hold Johnson and his Vote Leave team to it.
So your suggesting that the past 3 years of shambolic , ineffective , and self serving behaviour of Parliament from all parties is the fault of the electorate because of how they voted in the referendum ?
It's clear we've had a deficit of political talent for many years. Cameron got us into this mess, not the electorate. However the electorate didn't do their job properly which is to make the effort to understand the issues. Many of them didn't hold up their side of the bargain; but that's nothing new, they usually don't.
Yes, they and we have many problems, but Brexit isn't the answer to any of them. Sure lots of people were dissatisfied with their representation in Westminster, the way the country is run, and how others them. But however much you hate politicians, EU membership isn't THEIR thing, you won't hurt them by voting leave. The EU helps build the economy that pays all our wages and creates the budget for public services.; On top of that EU rules actually make our lives and environment better, for the most part.
Life is going to get far worse after Brexit, not better.
Not strictly true Molls.
Life is set to get a whole lot better for a select few who stand to profit hugely from the way our society will change post-Brexit
The rest of us will be left to count the cost and pick up the pieces, just like after the banking crisis, where those responsible for the mess simply shrugged and wandered off, totally unaffected, having trousered their millions/billions.
A great article, as always, by Marina Hyde in the Guardian today. Touching on the fact that it might be very unwise of Johnson and the ERG headbangers to be framing a’people v the elite’ narrative up, because post-Brexit it will become obvious very quickly exactly who ‘the elite’ are.
If you whip up an angry mob, they may end up angry with you
Once we've left can I copyright the phrase " I don't no y the EU is punishing us"?
I see you are a new member but your measured tone suggests you may be a long termer perhaps.
It's a shame you felt the need to do that as this thread, even at it's most passionate, is a well of serenity compared to the rabid stuff going on between the two sides of the debate on Twitter etc.
As you said, for this to be a discussion we do need contrasting views.
That said, why not use your normal login to post what was a measured comment? Unlike on social media no-one in this thread is subjected to verbal abuse. They are however argued again by those that disagree with their opinions or supported by those that concur.
So, yes, the thread is one sided but I don't see how changing your login just to post a comment really gives your opinion much credence.
You see, no name calling by me or others. I disagree with most of your post but im not calling for excommunication or anything.lol
Oh I dunno. If THM reappears but sans grown ups he’ll be in for some verbal 👹
So your suggesting that the past 3 years of shambolic , ineffective , and self serving behaviour of Parliament from all parties is the fault of the electorate because of how they voted in the referendum ?
Erm sort of but mostly it's because of how we voted in the 2017 GE
The Leave campaign were careful not to define the details of Brexit (helped them win but made this chaos inevitable)
That meant the 2017 election determined what type of Brexit we'd get
Labour manifesto said we'd get a Norway/Swiss+ sprinkle of unicorn dust deal
Tory manifesto and the brexiteers red lines made the deal May got complete with backstop, inevitable
And you know what that's exactly what labour & Tory MPs each voted for (apart from a handful of rebels & the ERG)
But a hung parliament means neither won out
So @brownsauce before you accuse others of spouting retarded drivel, maybe you should read those manifestos for yourself instead of parroting what the Sun/Mail/ Farage/ Julia Hartley Brewer/ Johnson etc tell you
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/
https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto
Erm sort of but mostly it’s because of how we voted in the 2017 GE
How does that work? 80% of people voted for parties committed to implementing brexit who then went out of their way to avoid it.
To pretend ‘we’ voted for this bunch of two faced hypocrites is a stretch (and I’d quite happily vote the liberals or anyone else in to keep Corbyn from implementing SSBGB, so I couldn’t care less about brexit).
@5thElephant
Go and read the manifestos then look at how they voted
Over 500 MPs (~80%) voted for Brexit of one kind or another ,JUST not the same kind
They have voted to implement Brexit just as they said they would in their respective manifestos- that we voted them in on
The 2 crucial issues is that Brexit was never defined during the ref
Hence May's idiotic 'BREXIT MEANS BREXIT'
and we have a hung parliament
You can blame parliament all you like but they've done exactly (excepting a few rebels) what we intructed them too.
You've fallen for the lazy propoga da of the right wing press & pundits
Surely Grandpa must be done on the allotment now? Last of the spuds are up and the digging over is done? How the **** is nobhead Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson (man of the people) this far ahead? And they say Thatcher was lucky in her enemies, Jesus wept.
In some ways he's right though, there ARE a hell of a lot of people falling for the populist bull coming out of project collateral damage and it's infectious. I can't help thinking that all the positive stuff going on is playing into their hands because they're controlling the narrative through the right wing media.
This place isn't remotely representative of the world outside, I'm not sure why not but THM was a good counterpoint, no matter how hat stand the point of view he wasn't the only one in the country to hold it.
I'd hope beyond hope that IF there were a 2nd ref sense would prevail but I'm not sure that's realistic.
We won't get a 2nd ref
Johnson will take us out on a hard Brexit (and then win an election)
As much as I'd like that not to happen, I have little faith in the electorate not to fall for Johnson's BS
Sadly, I agree with you.
Maybe things would be different if we actually had an electable opposition...
@ Brownsauce and Kelvin
So your suggesting that the past 3 years of shambolic , ineffective , and self serving behaviour of Parliament from all parties is the fault of the electorate because of how they voted in the referendum ?
I agree completely. The voters share very little of the blame in this. They followed the debates, checked out the campaign messages, and then made a judgement as to who was proposing the best way forward for the UK.
@brownsauce… what does holding the likes of Gove & Johnson & Hannan & Raab & Patel to account look like now? Should we expect them to deliver what their campaign said in 2016? Or accept the bait and switch?
Horseshit.
Eric Hoffer rightfully said that "The truth seems to be that propaganda on its own cannot force its way into unwilling minds; neither can it inculcate something wholly new; nor can it keep people persuaded once they have ceased to believe. It penetrates only into minds already open, and rather than instill opinion it articulates and justifies opinions already present in the minds of its recipients. The gifted propagandist brings to a boil ideas and passions already simmering in the minds of his hearers. he echoes their innermost feelings. Where opinion is not coerced, people can be made to believe only in what they already "know." This is a writer who's lessons are still taught to this day at West Point. We know this statement is true because historical analysis of previous political upheavals throughout the centuries supports this, history is driven by the narrative or memes that a populace creates for itself. Had Germans not already been rabid anti-semites, Hitlers anti-semitism would have fallen on deaf ears - but it is clear from the historical record that many Germans were and this was simply exploited. Johnson and the ERG are not in their position because they tricked the country, they are in their position because they tapped into and exploited the views of those in this country who feel that the EU are an existential threat and an enemy. We are in this position because a sizable minority of the electorate refuse to accept all but the one true brexit.
Countries only recover from this when the population as a whole has a reason to reevaluate it's autobiographical narrative. Before democracy elites drove moral and social change, if it were not for political elites - we would still be stripping women naked (witches), slathering them in tar and setting fire to them in barrels. However, under democratic means they drive change by exploiting this autobiographical narrative.
How selfish that those 17.4 million people couldn’t just tow the line to fit in with the Westminister elites way of thinking eh ?
Heaven forbid we hold politicians accountable when we should blaming ourselves for daring to have a say on this country’s future.
This was aimed at all but the ERG wasn't it? Oh I'm sorry, did the one-nation Tories, Lib Dem and Labor constituents and Brexit voters all vote for an ERG Brexit? No they didn't.
So, respectfully and in response to to your use of the term retarded - piss off you malodorous simpleton.
For those that have asked how we offer a counter narrative to those who are already Brexit true believers, we can't change their minds in the short term.
How the **** is nobhead Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson (man of the people) this far ahead?
Because he's shamless in telling people what they want to hear. Without Brexit he'd be nothing.
Corbyn is actually trying to put forward proposals for a better country but no-one is listening. They are obsessed with Brexit.
Or, what rayban said.
Corbyn is actually trying to put forward proposals for a better country but no-one is listening. They are obsessed with Brexit.
I am listening to Corbyn.
And his attitude towards the pharmaceutical industry is terrible, so I am out.
A perfect example of utter ****ing stupidity
above link leads to a conversation @Femi_Sorry tried to have with a leave voter regarding their insistence of “a wto deal is what we need”
This idiot needs a movie quote, whilst somewhat out of context I figure it can still apply.....
What we've got here is failure to communicate
Some men, you just can't reach
So, you get what we had here, last week
Which is the way he wants it
Well, he gets it....
*Whistling* And I don't like it any more than you men
How about we just drug the 17.4 million leavers with a sort of MK-ULTRA mind **** program and then we can all live happily ever after, with 17.4 million worker drones to do our evil EU bidding for us?
Horseshit.
Well thanks.
To summarise your post ‘they only told people that they could have what they already wanted’, which even if true, doesn’t negate my point that what was promised isn’t what is being delivered (by the very people who promised it), and that is the deceit for which the politicians need holding to account for, not those who voted with them.
The country will never move on unless the public analyse their views. Holding politicians to account allows the public to once again blame everyone but themselves for whatever mess the country is in and it plays right into the hands of one of the major driving forces of political mass movements. They will not learn and will be doomed to repeat the same mistakes again if they aren't forced to confront the idea that they are responsible.
"Unless a man has talents to make something of himself, freedom is an irksome burden. Of what avail is freedom to choose if the self be ineffectual? We join a mass movement to escape individual responsibility, or, in the words of the ardent young Nazi, "to be free from freedom." It was not sheer hypocrisy when the rank-and-file Nazis declared themselves not guilty of all the enormities they had committed. They considered themselves cheated and maligned when made to shoulder responsibility for obeying orders. Had they not joined the Nazi movement in order to be free from responsibility?" - Hoffer again.
Well, that’s a good argument for refusing to agree with those who are against another vote and would rather leave politicians to “get on with it”. You are trying to equate people who are getting behind Farage, or Johnson, now, with everyone who voted to Leave in 2016. Not everyone is part of a “mass movement” just because they voted in 2016 for the UK to keep full single market access (with a better deal) while slowly and carefully withdrawing from being a full EU member state.
Somafunk - did you see the "I'm not racist but it's about numbers and wages, if we were all on £1k a week"....
Dumb **** doesn't realise if we were all on £1k a week his spending power would be the same or worse - and why, considering that wealth is finite unless there is growth, is he deserving of that kind of wage compared to brighter people from the developing world?
You are trying to equate people who are getting behind Farage, or Johnson, now, with everyone who voted to Leave in 2016.
It was entirely predictable that after 2016 their vote would be co-opted, they were told that. Yet they still voted leave - it was a mass movement right from the start.
There was plenty of warning, yes. But that was in amongst plenty of other noise.
https://psmag.com/social-justice/white-nationalism-is-driven-by-a-perceived-loss-of-status
Interestingly, they also found that "white New Zealanders' perceptions about their own personal status relative to others were not related to their beliefs about national superiority, whereas their perceptions of their group's status were." This observation adds to the evidence that the nationalist backlash isn't a response to personal economic distress, but rather to concerns that one's ethnic group is losing its superior status.
Evolution has seen to it that the need to belong—preferably to a dominant group—is hard-wired in our brains. This new research suggests that, if one such group can no longer fulfill that need, we'll emphasize our affiliation with another. We all love chanting "We're number one!"—so much so that we're flexible on who precisely constitutes the "we."
Fits in nicely with
Those who see their lives as spoiled and wasted crave equality and fraternity more than they do freedom. If they clamor for freedom, it is but freedom to establish equality and uniformity. The passion for equality is partly a passion for anonymity: to be one thread of the many which make up a tunic; one thread not distinguishable from the others. No one can then point us out, measure us against others and expose our inferiority.
They who clamor loudest for freedom are often the ones least likely to be happy in a free society. The frustrated, oppressed by their shortcomings, blame their failure on existing restraints. Actually, their innermost desire is for an end to the "free for all." They want to eliminate free competition and the ruthless testing to which the individual is continually subjected in a free society.
BOOM!
And that report was funded by the EU...
Sorry partially funded. So half-BOOM
And? The data is out there for other people to be able to replicate the study. Why would they Luke and place their academic reputations on the line? Do you have a specific issue with the study?
I have have no specific issue with the abstract - I don't have access to the full data as regards sample size, etc.
Studies are just a one-off study, hence i Would be really interested in a replication.
As for reputations/financing of studies, a quick glance across at the drug companies will reveal plenty of reputations for sale.
As for reputations/financing of studies, a quick glance across at the drug companies will reveal plenty of reputations for sale.
Who are usually caught out, by academics - often even academics funded by industry.
The same bad evil industry that did this...
But yes, you are right - reproducibility is good.
Oh completely. I wasn't disparaging your original comment - far from it - but the leap toward 'truth' from the media through studies is frequently misleading and disingenuous.
I am also not disputing the good that can be done. One always hope the good actors outweigh the bad ones, particularly in healthcare.
I see a lot of posts (in this thread and others) with just a link/quote from a study as though it's now a defined, unmovable fact.
Out of ~1.5 to 2.3 million papers published every year some may be wrong. Most papers are not repeated, some are and go on to make real, lasting changes in science. RE: your reference
This may, however, not be the thread for such rational thought.
Good post there Luke. Yeah you are right on every point there. I’ve been following Cummins blog and he seems to fall into a similar trap, deciding for example that one prolific scientist (Plomin) is the sole arbiter of truth within genetics.
However, it does seem to fit the qualitative work eg Hoffer and various books I’ve been reading on counter-insurgency - in a manner which I think warrants further study/investigation.
The country will never move on unless the public analyse their views. Holding politicians to account allows the public to once again blame everyone but themselves for whatever mess the country is in and it plays right into the hands of one of the major driving forces of political mass movements. They will not learn and will be doomed to repeat the same mistakes again if they aren’t forced to confront the idea that they are responsible.
I don't know if it's human nature in general or a Little Britain supremacy thing, but increasingly we just seem unable to say 'Whoops, I was wrong there, can I apologise / rethink'
We see it on here, people riding bikes they don't like because they bought them and can't bring themselves to say they made a mistake. When a driver pulls out in front of someone, instead of a wave and 'Sorry' they turn it back on the other driver with 'if you weren't going so fast' or similar. It's partly failing to take responsibility for their choices but that comes from just a deeprooted inability to admit their error.
I'm not saying (before it's thrown back) that anyone who voted leave made a mistake. Undoubtedly some made a decision based on their beliefs and the evidence given to them at the time and would / will do the same if the chances arose. But I worry about a proportion that still want to leave even though inside they feel unease now the facts are better known, because of an inability to say they were wrong / mislead previously.
'I know it's a piece of shit but I chose it and so now I'd rather eat it than admit it'
(and not for a moment don't I think there are remainers in the same camp - just my belief system based on evidence makes me think there are less people likely to look at it right now and thinking that Brexit seems to be turning out to be much better than predicted)
There are plenty of people who voted remain that also think that way…
‘I know it’s a piece of shit but they chose it and so now I’d rather eat it than ask them to admit it’
Call it the Kinnock or Flint approach, if you like.
Probably good practical politics for a politician wanting to keep their seat. And voters who think like that increasingly seem to see it as the democratic way forward, even if most people don’t want to eat it, oddly. Is that just a media narrative thing? Or a misplaced hope that just munching on down will let us put this whole episode behind us, no matter bad the aftertaste?
How the **** is nobhead Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson (man of the people) this far ahead?
2 main reasons.
1. Anyone who wants Brexit will be voting for Johnson as they see that as the best chance of it being implemented (whether a no deal, a dodgy unlawful one or whatever, as long as we leave the EU at all costs. A lot of people voted Brexit and for some reason it is that important to them
2. He is playing a populist game and the opposition are not as they think they have too much integrity. Politics has changed and populism clearly wins the votes and any parties that are not good at it will suffer - hence Tories 12 points in the lead.
He is playing a populist game and the opposition are not as they think they have too much integrity. Politics has changed and populism clearly wins the votes and any parties that are not good at it will suffer – hence Tories 12 points in the lead.
My big worry? Labour think that the weak electoral campaign of May and Timothy is going to be replicated this winter. Johnson and Cummings are going to blow them out of the water, and a 12 point lead (or whatever) is their base to build from, not a lead that will be greatly eroded. The next election will not be a rerun of 2017, far from it. The team that the Conservatives have in place now is a campaigning team first and foremost, with a successful track record and no morals or scruples of any kind whatsoever.
kerley
Member
How the **** is nobhead Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson (man of the people) this far ahead?2 main reasons.
1. Anyone who wants Brexit will be voting for Johnson as they see that as the best chance of it being implemented (whether a no deal, a dodgy unlawful one or whatever, as long as we leave the EU at all costs. A lot of people voted Brexit and for some reason it is that important to them
2. He is playing a populist game and the opposition are not as they think they have too much integrity. Politics has changed and populism clearly wins the votes and any parties that are not good at it will suffer – hence Tories 12 points in the lead.
Point 2 - Politics has changed. In my (limited) history knowledge, populism has been winning the vote over integrity since circa ~90BC