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Unfortunately, we have to deal with the world as it is, rather than as we’d like it to be.
Dominic Cummings understands this very well. The lies and manipulation have started already. The groundwork is being done ready for a brutal and dishonest election campaign
Labour needs to wake up to reality and stop the endless ‘if...if...if...if...’
This will certainly be the most important election of my lifetime and it needs a credible effective opposition to fight these far right, disaster capitalist lunatics.
This should be an open goal for Labour
It will never be a open goal.
It's completely at odds with the division in society.
Dominic Cummings understands this very well. The lies and manipulation have started already. The groundwork is being done ready for a brutal and dishonest election campaign
I reckon it’ll be done on something like ‘let’s get it over’, it’ll be sold on another binary simple premise that parliament is what’s holding it from just being done.
Simple wins.
Dominic Cummings understands this very well.
Binners I’m at a complete loss as to why you continue to defer to the supposed political genius of Cummings and Johnson and dismiss labour as amateurs when the stark evidence of the past few weeks has demonstrated the very opposite.
I don’t know what newspapers you’ve been reading but it seems to have escaped your notice that labour have run rings around everyone they’ve come up against. First May, then Swinson, and now Cummings and Johnson. The hardest part is still to come of course but it really couldn’t have gone any better for labour up to this point.
Where’s Tom Watson BTW? He seems to have gone a bit quiet.
Run rings? 😂
If they were that good they would be in power not sitting on the opposition benches!!
The goal is to win elections not being good at opposition.
The goal is to win elections not being good at opposition.
Hang on for months everyone’s been screaming about a lack of effective opposition. Now they’ve demonstrated that it’s not enough? The election is on its way, i’m sure when it comes you’ll be salivating at the prospect of Johnson winning so you can be proved right.
Nope, and it is very true that for the past few weeks Corbyn has upped his game. But he is still behind in the polls.
Hopefully the UK people will make the right choice and kick the Brexshitters in history.
The Tories and Brexit party have a very clear message, it needs to be the same for Labour if they want to be in power. Simple as that.
Is there any reason that a referendum can't precede an election? Purely so the electioneering can be about building a stable future as opposed to all about Brexit. Yes, it means delay but hopefully that's going to happen anyway.
The longer the opposition have to stay United the more the cracks are going to show.
Loving the widespread condemnation of the JFC tweet from all sides, but they need to stop retweeting the original image while doing so. They're just doing Dom's job for him...
So let’s say the no no deal law passes, and Boris for once does stick to his word and then defies it. What next?
Contempt of parliament?
Refusal to pass financial bills to hold the government to ransom?
At what point does it become a big enough constitutional crisis for Lizzie to sack him? She did it to Whitlam in Oz in 70s, for much less.
At what point does it become a big enough constitutional crisis for Lizzie to sack him? She did it to Whitlam in Oz in 70s, for much less.
It was the Governor General Sir John Kerr who sacked Whitlam. It's still very much up for debate how much the Queen knew about it. (letters between the two are still under lock and key) The palace has always denied any knowledge, but I'd doubt that very much.
So let’s say the no no deal law passes, and Boris for once does stick to his word and then defies it. What next?
Contempt of parliament?
Refusal to pass financial bills to hold the government to ransom?
Probably a GE which goes back to the square one which is GE that could be call before 31 Oct.
The opposition cannot hold the govt or the people to ransom for too very long as they need to have a GE to establish their legitimacy. If the rebels try to pull a quick one before going to the GE they will get it in the GE.
It was the Governor General Sir John Kerr who sacked Whitlam. It’s still very much up for debate how much the Queen knew about it. (letters between the two are still under lock and key) The palace has always denied any knowledge, but I’d doubt that very much.
Yes, her representative. And one can assume she knew quite a lot about it, or why the secrecy for those letters?
In this country though it’s her job. And as upsetting for the born to rule classes as Whitlam was, he didn’t openly defy the law, which is what Johnson is proposing to do.
By your benchmark then Daz, William Hague, Iain Duncan Smith and Michael Howard we’re all devastatingly effective leaders?
Probably a GE which goes back to the square one which is GE that could be call before 31 Oct.
But not withstanding your second comment, short of voting for no confidence in themselves (or Johnson resigning), the gvt are entirely at the whim of the opposition.
But at the same time, what recourse do the opposition, who are in majority, have if the executive fail to obey the law?
... the gvt are entirely at the whim of the opposition.
They already are since ex-PM May.
But at the same time, what recourse do the opposition, who are in majority, have if the executive fail to obey the law?
Not sure yet but I guess they might just be forced to have a GE by someone ... not sure who that someone is. 😀
Corbyn will not be as useless as they are portraying him come election time
He is the main impediment to Labour getting elected.
The people I work with are sensible, reasonably engaged about Brexit and know that the Conservatives caused all this. There are four of us who are fairly good friends.
In past times, when the world was halfway sane, we would all have been described as moderate conservatives. Two of them now say ‘Boris Johnson is a total stroker and shouldn’t be anywhere near power, but I CANNOT vote for Jeremy Bloody Corbyn - terrorist sympathizer and clueless dithering twunt’. Or words to that effect. In light of this, the two I am on about would probably not bother voting, but if they did, they would vote conservative to hold them to account.
A halfway sane Labour leader would be absolutely pissing it by now.
These are people who are above average intelligence, have a good deal of life experience and realism behind them and are decent folk. They are conscientious at work and easy to get along with.
Sometimes ‘we’ in the STW politics thread niche need to remember that a lot of sensible folk are just too busy to keep up with all the shenanigans.
Labour need to ditch Magic Grandpa and get a halfway plausible leader. They can then campaign with a slant of ‘whatever happened to the art of being a conservative at heart whilst not being a total arsehole?’
The people I work with are sensible, reasonably engaged about Brexit
Did they vote in or out? If they voted out then your "sensible" adjective is misplaced. Brexit never was and isn't the sensible option.
Corbyn isn't dithering, he's managing a complex and nuanced situation to get the best outcome. However as we've seen, people don't understand that and see it as dithering. Shame really. We want thoughtful and careful politicians but when we get one we just attack him anyway. This is why we're in a mess and why we're doomed.
Dannyh: they can’t be that intelligent if they’re falling for the terrorist sympathiser trope.
Whilst I get your point, I’m still utterly baffled as to the differential expectations placed upon leaders of Labour vs the Tories, the last three of the latter being the most inept, useless, and downright destructive prime ministers the country has seen in a very long time.
Shame really. We want thoughtful and careful politicians but when we get one we just attack him anyway.
Totally this. The same people on here who bemoan the lurch to populist politics want Corbyn to boil labour policy down to 3 word sound bites, moan about him not being on the telly enough, and trot out whatever the daily mail headline is that day about him. You can’t have it both ways.
Dannyh: they can’t be that intelligent if they’re falling for the terrorist sympathiser trope.
I think what danny is saying is that it’s not fair that decent, respectable and upstanding middle class people like him are not having it all their own way any more or being paid the attention they deserve.
You may dispute the term ‘dithering’ Molls (I think he’s the dictionary definition of the word), but what he most certainly is guilty of is the word that those around him, who aren’t members of the weird cult, use repeatedly...
‘disengaged’
I, for one, find that really strange.
For a man who, so we are told, has spent his life campaigning and protesting, he seems to have spent the last 3 years being remarkably sanguine about what essentially amounts to a far right coup. I haven’t seen the slightest hint of any protesting or campaigning.
And it’s this detachment, along with many of his other obvious flaws which contribute to something that is undeniable...
The total absence of leadership
@binners: 1st google hit for me - https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/29/jeremy-corbyn-backs-hard-left-plan-bring-cities-halt-protest/amp/
I think there’s a saying about blindness in people who choose not to see...
This should be an open goal for Labour
Because the situation is so simple?
Woah! I didn’t actually read the filthy rag. But to demonstrate a point that it didn’t take much to find evidence of Corbyn’s activism, it did the job...
I’d be impressed if Corbyn supported a general election and then stood down as leader the moment it was passed in parliament.
Corbyn isn’t dithering, he’s managing a complex and nuanced situation to get the best outcome. However as we’ve seen, people don’t understand that and see it as dithering. Shame really. We want thoughtful and careful politicians but when we get one we just attack him anyway. This is why we’re in a mess and why we’re doomed.
He isn't thoughtful and careful, and he isn't managing the situation, it is just happening around him while he is stood frozen in the middle having no effect.
I’d be impressed if Corbyn supported a general election and then stood down as leader the moment it was passed in parliament
And realistically that is now the best thing he could do for the country, whether you believe he is a tactical genius or a dithering fool, no one actually sees him winning a majority, if he wants the best for the country and especially the poorest and most vulnerable then he should stand down and allow someone who can win take up the challenge of defeating the right wing extremists before it is too late.
if he wants the best for the country and especially the poorest and most vulnerable then he should stand down and allow someone who can win take up the challenge of defeating the right wing extremists before it is too late.
And herein lies the problem. Even if he did step down, the party would be paralysed whilst a drawn out election for a new leader is undertaken, giving a hostile media weeks of free runs on how divided the party appears whilst the candidates duke it out
For a man who, so we are told, has spent his life campaigning and protesting, he seems to have spent the last 3 years being remarkably sanguine about what essentially amounts to a far right coup. I haven’t seen the slightest hint of any protesting or campaigning.
That is because he has never been a europhile until recently when pressured by certain people. He is just pretending to be one for the moment but wait until he gets into power. He would probably drain the swap much faster than Tories. Bear in mind, those defectors to Lib dem etc are the first round of Magic Grandpa (still make me laugh this term) draining the swap without even "tarnishing" his own image.
On the other hand, many of the Tories are just "secret" europhile but just pretending to be not. 😄
Both sides are draining the swap but the media just portray them differently to increase their ratings.
It’s like having David Icke’s inner monologue beamed directly onto the internet 😃
someone who can win
Like all the brilliant Labour statespeople who are just hanging around doing nothing currently?
Here you go. Sitting around doing nothing, Jess Phillips style...
https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1169337961420337154?s=21
The Labour Party would walk a general election with her in charge. She’s everything that Corbyn, and indeed Johnson, isn’t
It’s about time Labour had a female leader, and she’d make a brilliant PM
Whoa
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1170373770487500800?s=19
Would leave Tories 21 short of a majority (electoral calculus)
Why even contemplate an election which runs the risk of returning a Tory government of any sort?
The obvious thing to do, now that no-deal is written into law, is to have a vote of no confidence and install a new government of national unity. The numbers are now there to oust Bojo, and, providing a suitable interim PM can be found that keeps a majority of MPs happy, then this is surely the best option:
Seek an extension, have cross party talks on a compromise brexit strategy and accptable deal (FoM, Single market access etc), see if EU will accept, and if so then referendum ... deal or remain. As soon as done and dusted a new GE can be run.
Maybe use the opportunity to introduce PR while we have the chance (maybe pushing it)
The polls also show that the Tory lead evaporates in the event of an extension to EU membership. Presumably because Leavers return to the Brexit party.
install a new government of national unity
There is no unity. Labour still want pink unicorns, the LibDems have, under Swinson, lurched further right than much of the Tory party and the SNP will demand a Section 30 - which the other two won't offer.
The polls also show that the Tory lead evaporates in the event of an extension to EU membership. Presumably because Leavers return to the Brexit party.
A Tory-Brexit alliance will will under both circumstances then?
Why even contemplate an election which runs the risk of returning a Tory government of any sort?
Indeed. The stakes are very high. I think the opposite parties are playing a good game at the moment. No need to do anything precipitous. Leave Johnson contemplating that ditch for a while.
Looks like my MP John Mann is off in a cloud of anti-semitism anger ... To work for the Tories. (Probably before he gets deselected.)
Good riddance. Vile piece of work.
However being in Brexitopia Bassetlaw I wonder what will happen next.
A Tory-Brexit alliance will will under both circumstances then?
Yeah not looking good.
Then Drop out of any extension assuming we get one.
Don’t think this is going to play out well and I think people are dissing the Dom when he’s probably been doing market research on how to win at any cost.
It’s about time Labour had a female leader, and she’d make a brilliant PM
That was the most overrated speech I've ever seen in the commons. It's funny how she can't aim anything in support of her own party.
Voice wobbling phoney.
Was funny that there was hardly anyone on the Government's bench.
There was a better speech that day but you didn't flag that did you?
She's terrible and hopefully will bugger off at some point.
The Labour Party would walk a general election with her in charge. She’s everything that Corbyn, and indeed Johnson, isn’t
Yes, a self-serving Tory-lite narcissist.
She wouldn't walk an election. At all.
She will be lucky to hang on to her constituency next time. But she will almost certainly end up with a TV career.
The obvious thing to do, now that no-deal is written into law, is to have a vote of no confidence and install a new government of national unity. The numbers are now there to oust Bojo, and, providing a suitable interim PM can be found that keeps a majority of MPs happy, then this is surely the best option:
Seek an extension, have cross party talks on a compromise brexit strategy and accptable deal (FoM, Single market access etc), see if EU will accept, and if so then referendum … deal or remain. As soon as done and dusted a new GE can be run.
I think your spot on this And play it off with “Brexit - its done” which would neutralise Boris an the Brexit party as Brexit to a large number of people would be over and done.
Yes, a Tory-lite narcissist
She’s terrible and hopefully will bugger off at some point
And there, in a nutshell, is why the Labour Party under Corbyn is completely unelectable
And there, in a nutshell, is why the Labour Party under Corbyn is unelectable
We endure all of your anti-Corbyn rhetoric and nauseous insults for months and you think you have the superior angle here...
Okay.
(IIRC you had similar affinity for Chuka and Rory Stewart.)