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Slimey little ****ing self centred opportunists .
Slimey little **** self centred opportunists .
Or they could believe it is the right decision. Just because someone doesnt agree with your positions doesnt mean they are all that. Soubry has a point about language.
That said ****ing IDS deserves all the insults listening to that tosser dribbling on now.
Or they could believe it is the right decision
The MP in question has been lecturing everyone about democracy since 2016 and now pulls this stunt?
That is even more of an odious stunt than anything IDS has ever pulled.
Completely and utterly cynical.
Isn't the cheap trick in all this the Govt not providing tellers so the amendment couldn't be voted down. The Labour MPs are being self serving but I don't really think they expected the amendment to pass.
I really hope it can be voted our in the Lords
The MP in question has been lecturing everyone about democracy since 2016 and now pulls this stunt?
The Labour MP pulled the stunt?
Not the government either deliberately or via incompetence.
Have you got any evidence for this claim?
You are right, it seems that the government saw the amendment and decided to pull a fast one. However, Champion and Kinnock were apparently informed this amendment was a risk and that the amendment being a hollow gesture to their constituents was not guaranteed.
So they are at best cynical idiots and at worse wilfully complicit.
Corbyn needs to do a Boris on them, not least because idiots of that aptitude who then boast about their idiocy on Twitter are a liability.
Unfortunately he can’t give up the oppositions 1 seat majority. Edit: (Oh wait, hahah I totally forgot - it’s 20 something now isn’t it?) Lol.
Whooooooo
So can we have a second referendum and only count the remain votes? Democracy my arse...
3rd defeat for the govt with PM BoJo in 24hr. 🤔
JC has been calling for GE for a while but now ... 😄
Let's see if Parliament is sovereign or the people.
To the people!
grumpygit
Member
So can we have a second referendum and only count the remain votes? Democracy my arse…
No the result will be the result
The brrxiteers have failed because they had no plan for the Brexit they promised, yes they're thrashing around blaming the EU/remoaners/MPs etc but they need to take responsibility for their incompetence & lack of planning
So they are at best cynical idiots and at worse wilfully complicit.
Or because they believe people have voted for it and they need to represent them. Calling that cynical idiots or wilfully complicit is the sort of poor language put forward by Johnson.
Unfortunately he can’t give up the oppositions 1 seat majority. Lol.
Or because that would be fundamentally undemocratic. What is a pisspoor idea for Johnson would be a poor idea for Corbyn. Withdrawing the whip should be the last resort for the party leadership.
Oh I completely agree, it just seems completely screwed to have a "vote" and not count one side.
Or because they believe people have voted for it and they need to represent them. Calling that cynical idiots or wilfully complicit is the sort of poor language put forward by Johnson
Well the outrage bus seems to be out in full force in Rotherham. She now has pissed off Brexiteers who saw it as a hollow attempt to placate them and pissed off remainers who see her as a traitor to the cause. I agree with both sides.
She won’t survive the next election.
That should be a warning to labour that fence sitting is not big and clever.
I don’t think for a second (as do the political pundits) that amendment was anything but a cynical ploy, tabled for the optics.
The notion that ‘No Deal has to remain on the table so we have a credible negotiating threat’ is an outright lie.
FWIW I think it's the best (least worst) card we have to play. Care to suggest a better one?
The EU27 isn’t stupid, they know that a) there’s no real appetite for no deal, b) it would be ruinous for us and c) it doesn’t affect them nearly as much as people over here think.
Most people on STW think Boris genuinely wants no deal and has a serious chance of delivering it. Maybe Merkel and Macron have come to the same conclusion and will blink first. If they don't blink first what have we lost but leaving the no deal option open until the last minute? We can accept May's deal any time or remain if we wish. (We might not wish, of course!)
Well the outrage bus seems to be out in full force in Rotherham.
Which shows the weakness in your claim about them being cynical types. Since a cursory few seconds thought would show that, sadly, the outrage bus was highly predictable and so trying to get brexit with the agreed deal would have people on both sides melting down. In most cases without really knowing why.
She voted against Mays deal before. If she believed in it like Rory Stewart etc, she would have voted for it then.
This was so they could say, we want Brexit - just not Johnson’s exit. That way, when labour eventually come out in favour of a referendum they can say that they were at least a little brexity.
It was a remarkable display of misjudgement, not genuine belief.
No chance we could VAR implemented in the HoC?
Corbyn needs to do a Boris on them, not least because idiots of that aptitude who then boast about their idiocy on Twitter are a liability.
Unfortunately he can’t give up the oppositions 1 seat majority. Edit: (Oh wait, hahah I totally forgot – it’s 20 something now isn’t it?) Lol.
Err, if the Labour Party deselect you, you don't automatically join the Governing party.
Preferably with a little bit of facial recognition and NLP so we can get to the second, live updates on when Rees Mogg is acting like a window licker.
It was a remarkable display of misjudgement, not genuine belief.
Your knowledge is rather startling. When did you chat with them?
Err, if the Labour Party deselect you, you don’t automatically join the Governing party.
Of course not, but I’m assuming they would just become even bigger pains.
Your knowledge is rather startling. When did you chat with them?
You’re entitled to your opinion dissonance, I just disagree. You can’t read people’s minds, you have to judge them by their actions - which are left wanting in this case.
You can’t read people’s minds
Apart from you are making clear and precise statements about their position which, frankly, doesnt hold up to even basic scrutiny.
4th defeat for PM BoJo within 24hr. 😀
No 2/3 support for fixed term election.
JC does not want an election for fear of losing so in effect he has confidence in the govt. (good response from PM BoJo - few minutes ago) 🤣
Corbyn in the driving seat
Johnson desperately wants an election, he is a lame duck
Only Corbyn can give him one
If Johnson has to extend AND no deal is ruled out farage will eat up what's left of the Tory vote
Where's that strutting Cornyn gif?
Corbyn in the driving seat
Yes, he is but the question is can he drive? 😂
Johnson desperately wants an election, he is a lame duck
Actually in the eye of the world UK is now a lame duck Not because of PM BoJO. 🤔
Apparently this is the first time an opposition party refused an invitation for an election according to PM BoJo. 🤣
How long will JC prevent an election? 😀
The longer this continues the better because in the next GE there will be a landslide for one party, not sure which party but there will a party(s) consign to history or heavily hammered. 🤔
What a complete farce British politics is right now. People voted to leave but the politicians won’t let them leave, the government are again being told what to do (go and ask for an extension) by the opposition, now they cannot even hold a bloody election ffs.
Surely because the vote to leave won then leave it is. You cannot move goalposts and say because no one voted for no deal it doesn’t count, especially as leave has not even been implemented. What happens next time something is voted for and wins, can you change your mind and not even implement it?
it really is total cockup. My 2p worth, rightly or wrongly, implement the referendum result which was leave, see what happens over the next 5 or 10 years, who knows things might be ok or ask to rejoin if its that bad. But as the country is so split 50% will be unhappy what ever the outcome is. How do you rebuild from this?
You cannot move goalposts
You mean, like saying Brexit could give us a deal with the EU “like Norway or Switzerland but better, because of our size”, and then, once just over half the country have voted with you … move on to say that ANY deal with the EU isn’t really Brexit, and isn’t what people voted for.
The goalposts were moved.
The bait and switch was blatant.
Nice to see the Tory ****s hoisted by their own petard, the fixed term act is their own legislation..... now being used against them, time to slowly squeeze the lame duck.
What a complete farce British politics is right now. People voted to leave but the politicians won’t let them leave, the government are again being told what to do (go and ask for an extension) by the opposition, now they cannot even hold a bloody election ffs.
Parliament has prevented the Govt in carrying out its duty.
Parliament considers themselves sovereign but they have forgotten their overlord that is the people.
Power has been lent to the Parliament by the people and if Parliament goes against the will of the people, this can be seen as Parliament acting in contempt of the people. The Parliament will get it in the next GE.
Surely because the vote to leave won then leave it is. You cannot move goalposts and say because no one voted for no deal it doesn’t count, especially as leave has not even been implemented. What happens next time something is voted for and wins, can you change your mind and not even implement it?
That is precisely the tactics being used to prevent leaving EU. The so called deal will only make UK weaker in the eye of the world. No credibility in terms respecting people will whatever they wish to say. The rebel alliance want a deal but knowing that is not going to happen simply use it to push as an excuse to prolong brexit in the hope that the longer it goes, the weaker the desire of the people for brexit and to vote to remain or to cancel brexit.
But as the country is so split 50% will be unhappy what ever the outcome is. How do you rebuild from this?
If 52% is not enough for a referendum then they should also consider if candidates winning in an election with a small margin should be reconsidered legitimate. Well they might argue referendum is different but then what is democracy when having won beyond 50% is not considered a win?
The trouble I have with this kelvin is I distrust nearly all politicians/parties. I feel They say whatever they need to to get elected at a given time. How many times have party manifestos and pledges not been delivered on once in power? They lie all the time
how long till they ask the rebels to come back to the party.
Actually in the eye of the world UK is now a lame duck Not because of PM BoJO.
Possibly agree with that, although BloJo takes some of the blame - most of it lies with folk like Cummings, Farage, JRM, and the rest of the Brexies. They just wouldn’t let it lie would they?
Johnson is just a bit of a tart for power willing to do anything for a bit of advancement.
Same old bobbins trotted out there Chew, "will of the people" banded about like it means anything. It was near as dammit 50/50. Just as many people happy as cheesed off with the current state of affairs.
I don't think rebuild inf from this will take that long. No-one gave a crap about Europe before 2016, they'll soon forget.
Just because you think democracy means do X without thinking about the consequences doesn't make it so.
Basic problem you have here is that a referendum ain’t compatible with your representative democracy as practiced in the Uni’ed Kingdom.
It’s your basic incompatibility problem, innit?
Now your Swiss democracy, they love a bit of a referendum. ‘Course they know how to ignore inconvenient ones, but still, that’s your natural home of the referendum. Don’t grow well in a British democratic environment.
(Try saying it in a Monty Python voice 🦵👉😉)
The only grace for the British Parliament is that the British people are patient.
In other part of the world such contempt of the people will end up with civil war! 😃
Same old bobbins trotted out there Chew, “will of the people” banded about like it means anything. It was near as dammit 50/50. Just as many people happy as cheesed off with the current state of affairs.
Does the Parliament have any power if not for the people lending them or electing their representatives to do their bidding?
Do politicians have power if nobody elect them?
Yes, Parliament is sovereign but if Parliament tries to make the mockery of the people then they should be held accountable and the politicians deselect by the people. This is done in GE but if the people are Not even given the rights to choose then essentially Parliament is in contempt of the people by refusing the people their rights to have a vote.
(Try saying it in a Monty Python voice 🦵👉😉)
I tried but I prefer my hero Peter Griffin. 😂
No-one gave a crap about Europe before 2016, they’ll soon forget.
+1
andy4d
Subscriber
People voted to leave but the politicians won’t let them leave
As ever, the problem is that there was a tiny majority for leave, but there was never a majority for any particular version of leave. The hard brexiteers wouldn't have Theresa May's deal- never forget that it was defeated by leavers not by brexiters, including Johnson, it wasn't hard enough for them. Certainly no majority for no deal, too many people won't accept crashing out and rightly say it's not what was promised. Basically 96% of brexit voters need to be behind the one final, real brexit that can happen, and that is just never going to be the case
And the thing is, it's entirely the Leave campaign's fault- they decided to campaign on a fantasy brexit, and of course it can't be delivered. They always knew that'd be the case, they just thought they'd be able to ram through anything they wanted by shouting BREXIT enough. The reason being, they knew perfectly well that there was no majority for any real, possible brexit- if they'd tried to run with one they'd have lost by a mile. And they always, always said that there would be a deal. "Easiest in history".
If you bought a toaster that guaranteed you bigger, better, faster cheaper toast, and it turned out all it could do was incinerate the bread, you'd take it back to the shops. And you wouldn't let the shop tell you "well you asked for a toaster! It's not the one we promised but that doesn't matter, this is the only toaster we can give you so you have to keep it."
None of this is new- it was the case before the referendum, and the day after, and it always will be. Which of course is why the brexiteers, who constantly talk about "the will of the people", can't have a second referendum.
andy4d ^^^ if we leave a future application to rejoin is possible but existing opt-outs and rebates would be off the table.
The EU would dictate their terms on a 'take it or leave it basis'; I could see that including a non-negotiable requirement to adopt the euro.
What a complete shit-show.
How long before Cummings departs and finds another pile of shit on which to feed?
I thoroughly enjoyed Ken Clarke's put down of Johnson during the debate.
Watching Johnson squirm and bluster is truly delightful.
We need clear-headed strategic thinking from Labour.
^^^out of interest if article 50 is revoked do the opt outs/rebates remain? I thought I read somewhere a while back that we would have to negotiate them again, or does everything go back to how it was?
northwind, I don’t disagree but as I said I don’t really trust politicians, so if I bought a toaster of delboy after his sales pitch thinking I was getting a great deal and it was a turkey should I be surprised?
Surely because the vote to leave won then leave it is.
The referendum should have been treated as a declaration of intent, and then we should have spent the next few years debating exactly how we wanted to leave. Instead, we pulled the pin almost immediately with no planning, which is why we are in this mess. Blindly following the result to the letter and destroying the country in the process isn't what most people wanted at the election and it's not what most people want now. So why do it when it's going to be so incredibly damaging?
We need strategic thinking from Labour
Good luck with that. You’ve seen who’s nominally ‘in charge’?
Seems like they’re keen on revisiting the elephant trap they dodged first time around to not miss wading into it this time...
Utterly clueless!
Completely and utterly ****ing clueless
For Cummings, they’re the gift that never stops giving
Still 12 points behind this shower of incompetence in the polls. A truly amazing achievement.
out of interest if article 50 is revoked do the opt outs/rebates remain?
Risk has said we'd be readmitted as we are now
I imagine that all we'd have lost is a huge amount of respect, but that's lost regardless of what we do now
When it became obvious that the brexiteers had no actual plan for brexit in the eyes of the EU (& the rest of the world) we became a laughing stock
.
Also, even an October election could result in the incumbent PM dragging his heals on leaving office and going to the Queen… how long was Brown PM after the election where he lost his majority?
Oh, that was a reply to Del’s now deleted post. Never mind.