Forum menu
So most likely what Javid’s doing
Javid is doing nothing, plenty of sources in Westminster stating that he wasn't allowed any meaningful input to the spending review.
Yeah, let’s not get too carried away. The Labour Party, well... the Labour ‘leadership’ has absolutely no intention of killing off Brexit.
Mythical red unicorns Brexit is still their official policy, exactly as you’d expect from a lifelong Brexiteer.
Don’t let a push to stop No Deal blind you to the reality
If there were an election tomorrow, both main parties would still be going into it promising to deliver ‘the will of the people’
One would be seeking to check back with the people that their will is what’s being delivered though… and that’ll do me. At this point, I’d be happy for any party to put any deal back to the public, with the other option being Remain.
Javid is doing nothing, plenty of sources in Westminster stating that he wasn’t allowed any meaningful input to the spending review.
Fair point. Boris has certainly dispelled any fears that he didn't have the focus/work ethic to take a detailed interest in all the various government briefs!
You are confusing Boris with his team. And this spending review for one with all the detail thought through and ready to implement… rather than just floating pre-election ideas.
Mythical red unicorns Brexit is still their official policy
Except once they gain this fantastic deal they're going to campaign *against* it.
Quite a nice summary of the current situation from WoS
– The opposition won a vote last night aimed at preventing a no-deal Brexit by forcing the Prime Minister to request another extension (the third or fourth so far depending how you count) from the EU. The government has withdrawn the whip from all its own MPs who supported the vote, leaving it several dozen short of a majority (and theoretically ending the expensively-bought influence of the DUP).
– Tory peers in the House Of Lords plan to block this legislation by filibustering it. If they fail, the Prime Minister may seek instead to have the Queen refuse to give the legislation royal assent.
– If the legislation passes, nobody knows whether the Prime Minister will abide by it. The government has refused to commit to obeying the law.
– If the legislation succeeds and the Prime Minister is forced to ask the EU for a further extension, nobody knows whether the EU will agree. There’s no obvious justification for it – the UK Parliament has had three and a half years to solve Brexit and failed, it’s not clear how another three or six months would help.
– The Prime Minister claims to be actively pursuing a new deal with the EU. Countless sources within both the government and the EU have revealed that this isn’t true, and that no new proposals to solve the backstop have been offered.
– The Prime Minister, who has been in office approximately six weeks and who this week announced outside Downing Street that he didn’t want to hold a general election, has declared his wish to hold a general election, in effect calling a vote of no confidence in himself.
– But having spent the last two years constantly demanding a general election and proclaiming that it would solve all ills, Labour will apparently NOT support the Prime Minister in voting for one (although this position changes from hour to hour), making it highly unlikely that it’ll secure the necessary two-thirds majority.
– This is because the Tories currently lead by 10-12 points in opinion polls and most analysis shows them winning a majority, either alone or with The Brexit Party. However, the situation is so fluid that because of the vagaries of the UK’s electoral system, another inconclusive hung parliament is also a real possibility.
– As far as anyone can tell, Labour’s plan is to try to force a general election but only after the Prime Minister has achieved an extension from the EU. Nobody is very clear on when this prospective election would take place, and in particular whether it would be before or after 31 October.
– Seemingly the rationale for this is that asking for an extension would severely damage the Tories in the eyes of Leavers, and split the Brexit vote between them and The Brexit Party. But the Remain vote is also split between Labour, the Lib Dems, the SNP and others, and significant portions of those parties’ voters actually back Brexit.
– The Lib Dems have refused to participate in any anti-Brexit alliance which involves Jeremy Corbyn even briefly becoming caretaker Prime Minister. Corbyn, as leader of the official Opposition, has refused to step aside.
– Nobody knows what Brexit policy either the Tories, Labour or the Lib Dems would campaign on in any general election. Would there be another referendum? What options would be on the ballot paper? Nobody will say.
– Labour’s stated position (at least the last we heard) is for a vote “with credible options for both sides including the option to remain”, which appears to open up the possibility of a referendum with three, four or more options – meaning that the winning one would almost certainly have secured less than 50%.
– If the Tories win an election before 31 October, any prior legislation blocking a no-deal Brexit would be effectively null and void and could be overturned by the new administration. If they win an election after 31 October, they could cancel any extension granted by the EU or simply stall until the new deadline and enact a no-deal Brexit on the new date.
– A court in Scotland is currently hearing an appeal on a move to block the government’s plans to suspend Parliament for five weeks, although currently it’ll still be closed for most of that time anyway while all the UK parties hold their autumn conferences to decide what their policies are.
There's definitely a hint of cognitive dissonance about the Labour Brexit position.
Although as I understood it, it's currently:
Avoid no deal at all costs as part of the Rebel Alliance.
Then push for referendum, with deal or remain as options, or maybe no deal, deal, remain.
If that is not what is got, then GE, campaigning on "red deal, then referendum with deal or remain"
It certainly looks better than that which the Bluexit party are trying to ram through.
It may not be clear/simple enough to be a vote winner, but it’s good enough for me.
Tory peers in the House Of Lords plan to block this legislation by filibustering it.
I'm sure all the leavers will be up in arms about this shockingly undemocratic act by a bunch of unelected toffs.
Javid is doing nothing, plenty of sources in Westminster stating that he wasn’t allowed any meaningful input to the spending review.
I think there is a more likely and obvious explanation for sidelining of Javid than ‘Boris has got this’.
Remember, BloHard might still need to win back some of the Brexit Party vote...
Quite a nice summary of the current situation from WoS
UK has a very weak hand now going back for negotiation with EU.
If a new treaty is signed I am sure EU will make sure there is no return to such occurrence to happen again. If I were EU negotiating team I would hammer UK with treaty that is so one sided that they have to accept, knowing that UK is desperate not to leave.
Then push for referendum, with deal or remain as options, or maybe no deal, deal, remain.
You have a problem there with the term "may be no deal" because both sides will then fight for the meaning behind the term "may be" ...
I’m sure all the leavers will be up in arms about this shockingly undemocratic act by a bunch of unelected toffs.
Why not? Everyone has the right to protest within the law just like any other protests there are at the moment.
Looks like Corbyn’s brief moment of not acting like a completely clueless idiot was very brief indeed.
He now wants to give Johnson the general election he wants
Normal service is resumed.
FFS! 🙄
terrified of an actual second referendum in case ~3% of people have since changed their mind…
More like 1.3%
Or if people have died. Or used to be 15-17 years old. There’s a chance they’ve aged.
Or the 28% of folk who couldn’t be bothered to vote might stagger to the polls.
Could go either way, tbf. I’d be amazed if turnout wasn’t higher, and who knows how the missing millions would go.
As far questions on the paper, it’ll take a miracle to reach a question people find acceptable. Or more than one question. Or one question with three options and some sort of AV system.
Looks like Corbyn’s brief moment of not acting like a completely clueless idiot was very brief indeed.
He now wants to give Johnson the general election he wants
Normal service is resumed.
FFS! 🙄
You forgot to read the second half of the headline 🙄
once no-deal Brexit threat removed
And the rest of the article, it seems lol!
There are a couple of other fallacy/squirrels that need the truth telling about them too.
The notion that ‘No Deal has to remain on the table so we have a credible negotiating threat’ is an outright lie. Utter bullshit that is still being parroted (although I note that ‘they need us more than we need them’ has gone out of fashion now as it is so utterly and demonstratively bullshit). The EU has far more to gain with its internal politics by showing unity and not caving in to some tin pot basket case that is running around issuing empty threats. As noted before, where are the notions of ‘Frexit’ that our Brexiteers were sure would follow back in 2016? Nowhere. Even Poison Le Pen has stopped mentioning it. They effectively wanted to see how much of a shit show it would be by letting some other mug have first go. Tres prudent.
As for the greater spotted Greek Squirrel, well, there is another case of rank hypocrisy and 180 (or is it 360) degree cynical lying. I remember very well at the time that Brexiteers (such as they were back then) were using the prospect of the Greek bailout as an anti-EU argument along the lines of ‘we shouldn’t be paying into a system just to have it paid out to poorer countries who cannot get their own house in order, even worse if it benefits dirty forriners who use funny letters’. Now the argument is ‘look at how beastly the EU were to Greece, we must leave such an evil and bullying institution’. No Brexiteer could give a flying **** about Greece. Half of them wouldn’t know where it is on the map.
But it doesn’t matter in this post-truth world because integrity and feeling shame when you lie don’t get you anywhere. Being the biggest asshole you can possibly be seems like a winning electoral strategy.
Come on @binners, he’s playing this perfectly so far this week. Get extension, then get the election… at which 3 of the 4 biggest parties in Parliament, and a few smaller ones, will be standing on a 2nd referendum (with a Remain option) ticket. It’s then down to voters to do the right thing… twice… which may be a risky longshot, but, realistically, is probably the best way forward, sadly.
Looks like Corbyn’s brief moment of not acting like a completely clueless idiot was very brief indeed.
He now wants to give Johnson the general election he wants
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011
UK has a very weak hand now going back for negotiation with EU.
If a new treaty is signed I am sure EU will make sure there is no return to such occurrence to happen again. If I were EU negotiating team I would hammer UK with treaty that is so one sided that they have to accept, knowing that UK is desperate not to leave.
Someone is going to have to remind me why we would want a new treaty instead of just revoking A50 as we are legally entitled to do. Even the leavers might like that as it would force our will on those pesky euro-types.
An October 15th general election would not guarantee that an end to a no deal scenario would be in place by then.
You’d have to be an absolute idiot to go for a general election with someone as unscrupulous and untrustworthy as Boris Johnson still potentially able to drive through No Deal
Parliament presently has Johnson by the short and curlies. He’s presently powerless and impotent. Why on earth would you not exploit that until a no deal is really, truly off the table by handing him a potential get out of jail free card?
The Labour Party would have to be insane to go along with an October general election.
Kier Starmer clearly knows the risks and thinks it’s a bad idea.
Corbyn simply can’t help himself and is being played like a cheap fiddle. That’s not too difficult though. He’s never been the sharpest tool in the box though. All the political acumen of a potato
Plaid Cymru already splitting from Labour/SNP on the election timing question.
UK has a very weak hand now going back for negotiation with EU.
We always had despite our posturing, nothing's changed. The EU27 isn't stupid, they know that a) there's no real appetite for no deal, b) it would be ruinous for us and c) it doesn't affect them nearly as much as people over here think. As @dannyh just said, "The notion that ‘No Deal has to remain on the table so we have a credible negotiating threat’ is an outright lie."
Why not? Everyone has the right to protest within the law just like any other protests there are at the moment.
Why not indeed. Point is, they only object to stuff when it doesn't work in their favour. For all their cries of "democratic / undemocratic" they'll be quite happy for the (unelected) Lords to fillibuster this because it's what they want.
The front page of the Express today is "PARLIAMENT GIVES IN TO EU". Reckon they'll run a similar front page about "enemies of the people" when this goes through the HoL?
No Brexiteer could give a flying **** about Greece.
I said this a couple of pages back. Before the referendum it was a non-issue (hell, before the referendum, our EU membership was a non-issue). Now it's been weaponised.
Binners - it is being reported that it is the SNP who are pushing ( and going to vote) for a 15 Oct election as soon as Bill is passed. Even if not as part of fixed Parly act tonight - but to vote down the fixed Parly act after the no deal bill has passed
I guess their play is all about independence - who wins a GE is less important than the Govt being weak and the SNP being able to horse trade for a 2nd indy ref and a no deal crash out would strengthen the likelihood of a yes vote
Nicholas Soames was utter genius just now in the House of Commons, thanking Boris Johnson “for his serial disloyalty which has been an inspiration to us all”
He’s made a lot of serious enemies in the last 24 hours
An October 15th general election would not guarantee that an end to a no deal scenario would be in place by then.
Don't think there will be a GE as I just heard it on a certain radio station that JC would not vote for it. i.e. have a GE. However, that's just from a radio station. Things might change who knows as I want a GE just for the sake of entertainment.
If there is no GE soon then UK will be heading for a long slow torturous future ...
He’s made a lot of serious enemies in the last 24 hours
If PM BoJo is strong enough people will back him regardless.
Why fear the enemies within etc when he is the PM? It is better to fight then to bow as a PM.
Do you want your PM to bow to individual politicians regardless of which party they come from?
The position or the designation of PM does Not allow him to fear his enemies.
I guess their play is all about independence – who wins a GE is less important than the Govt being weak and the SNP being able to horse trade for a 2nd indy ref and a no deal crash out would strengthen the likelihood of a yes vote
Yeah, because everything the SNP has done to date regarding Brexit has been to make sure the UK crashes out without a deal. 🙄
Seriously, do you just make this stuff up or is someone feeding it to you?
Scotroutes - why would the SNP break ranks and push for a 15 Oct election when there is a risk Johnson could win and crash out with a No Deal out?
In terms of making it up - the SNP voting for 15 Oct GE is being reported. The rest is just speculation - isn't that what these forums are for?
Scotroutes – why would the SNP break ranks and push for a 15 Oct election when there is a risk Johnson could win and crash out with a No Deal out?
(It looks like) SNP have detected the best opportunity there is now as the PM is being savaged from all sides including those from within. This has presented the SNP the best opportunity to break the Union.
SNP knows that once the situation has stabilised they will not have another chance to break away for few generations ...
Interesting time.
On no chewkw agrees with me - I immediately withdraw all comments!!
Looks like the Tories have just pulled a fast one on the Bill
Binners I have no idea what you’re moaning about. He’s said repeatedly that he won’t support an election until a no deal brexit has been ruled out by law.
There needs to be an election. I see the urge to string out Johnson’s humiliation but the longer this goes on the worse it will get. Also Johnson could easily withdraw the election motion so they’ll lose the chance if they don’t seize it.
Corbyn has played a blinder over this. Not only does it look like a no deal will be prevented, and an election achieved, the tories have exploded, labour are looking pretty united and the transparently self-interested Lib Dem’s have had to follow labour’s lead. I don’t no how it could have worked out better. All we need now is a labour election victory and brexit could be on the brink of being defeated.
On no chewkw agrees with me – I immediately withdraw all comments!!
Freedoomm ...! 😅
I don't mind independent Scotland if they want it.
I will wait for them at the boarder to pass me their whisky ...
It looks like the Kinnock amendment to put Theresa May's deal back to the Commons for another vote just went through by mistake.... things are getting very very odd around here indeed
- Laura Kuessenbergs Twitter
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O6aK15YLzyw
This means that, if the PM needs to request an article 50 extension (because he has not negotiated a new deal, and MPs have not voted to approve a no-deal Brexit), then getting an extension to pass a version of the Theresa May deal becomes government policy.
Effectively, that means that any Brexit delay would not be a blind delay; it would be a delay to enable a version of the Theresa May going through.
It is not clear whether this has passed by accident - or as a result of some cunning plot.
Labours sarah champion is apparently responsible for this.
This is the moment representative democracy just died, at the hands of a scheming labour brexiteer. She just handed the tories an escape route.
Labour splinter group amend - but Govt failed to provide tellers for the vote so the amendment went through without a vote
Means May's WA is back on the table - bizarre
She should be deselected.
She has just ushered in a 1000 year Tory Reich with that.
labour are looking pretty united and the transparently self-interested Lib Dem’s have had to follow labour’s lead.
Hahah what a difference a few minutes have made.
Your darling duplicitous lexiteers, Eg kinnock et al, in labour have ****ed it. Labour have shat the bed.
Hahahahahaahahahaa
Ok I've just watched Ian Blackford - impressive - I may have been suffering for excessive cynicism brought on by and excess of Brexit - hopefully SNP and Labour can hold the collective line
Someone's going to have to explain this Sarah Champion thing to me because I don't understand it at all. Neither the amendment or the process by which it was passed.
Ray - not lexiters I think, Stephen Kinnock, Caroline Flint etc are hardly the hard left
The amendment may be removed in the Lords
Someone’s going to have to explain this Sarah Champion thing to me because I don’t understand it at all.
No idea. Very, very odd. Seems like lots of experts are also confused by it.
Champion, who has taken responsibility for this is one of the lexiteer groupies though isn’t she? I had assumed kinnock was as well but he seems to be an ERG 5th column.
I think I saw Champion saying No Deal was OK by her. She wants to be elected again
Does anyone think there's any possible deal that will ever pass parliament?
The only way anything could ever pass was with one party holding a huge majority which will not happen for many years.
We're stuck in an infinite feedback loop for years to come.
2nd ref is only way out now where if the people do vote for a particular deal, May's or otherwise, then parliament would have to pass it