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Yep brexit has broken britain
I think it was probably already broken. Brexit has simply exposed this fact to the whole world in a spectacular way.
In a fresh election only candidates prepared to follow the party line (whichever party) would be selected. Boris has already started this process!
narrowing a party from a broad church is only going to kill the party long term
4 of the MPs that defected last night only did so because they found Moggs speech so arrogant
This is what happens when one person’s ill-informed opinion is treated with the same degree of importance as another person’s PhD.
I have often found that those with "qualifications" can be just as idiotic as the ill-informed once they are outside their particular field of expertise. Don't judge how "intelligent" people are just by qualifications, wait for them to open their mouths and see what sh*t falls out.
However, This has been the BBC's problem with balance when it comes to Brexit. As demonstrated in the last few years, no matter how hard they tried, there simply wasn't one expert from the Brexit bus, so it ended up with a multitude of loons and crackpots.
Johnsons first, and possibly last, PMQ's should be interesting
I'd actually like Corbyn to completely ignore Brexit and hit him with questions about rural bus services 😀
But we’ve seen that even if a party has a majority that doesn’t mean it can rely on its MPs to vote for its proposals.
We haven't had a single party with a decent workable majority since 2005 when Blair had 67.
The Cons/Libdems between them had a useful majority, I guess.
Since then nobody has had a decent workable majority. Half a dozen rebels can wreak havok and punishing rebels when you have a wafer thin majority is neat impossible as May found out.
In a fresh election only candidates prepared to follow the party line (whichever party) would be selected. Boris has already started this process!
The brexit party's high water mark was what, some 5 million votes in the European elections? Would those who traditionally voted tory trust Boris and go back to voting for the party?
What is often forgotten about is the significant Tory voters who are remainers.
While the tories will focus on the usual Corbyn not to be trusted line(one of the reasons he shouldn't be Labour leader), Corbyn has finally drawn attention to Johnson's lapdog relationship with Trump.
2nd ref is the only way forward
It will solve nothing for all the reasons stated ad infinitum on STW and all over the media.
Oof. Boris turning around and arguing with hecklers on his own benches!
But then there’d be no point in Brexit.
Ah, was that the sound of the other shoe falling? We've been saying this for a couple of years, this is almost certainly why May's deal got rejected three times.
ION,
But then what’s to stop another no no-deal bill?
Nothing, except whoever are our MPs at the time. As it should be.
People voted for all sorts of positive Brexits. The government delivering them a no deal Brexit, with the damage that they know that entails, and telling voters “tough luck, you voted for this, so we’re going to neuter your MPs so that they can’t stop us” would be an utter failure of democracy. If the government wants a no deal Brexit, it can ask MPs to vote for it, so that their voters can take that into account when they next deal with them or are asked to vote for them. Pretending that a No Deal Brexit is some kind of default, or accident, rather than political choice, has got very very old.
It will solve nothing
It won’t unite the country… but it would give voters the chance to head off further damage. Okay, “damage” sounds loaded… how about “change”. The preparation to Leave has, er “changed” the country, but it is nothing compared to the “change” people will be experiencing once we do actually leave… especially without the offramp of a transition period and without a government seeking to quickly rebuild relationships with the rest of Europe… and instead with one tub thumping for a deal with a Trump led USA that the government’s own figures suggest will deliver bugger all benefit to the people of the UK.
It will solve nothing for all the reasons stated ad infinitum on STW and all over the media.
Then it should just be revoked and the two main party's accept they won't get a majority in Parliament due to the wrath incurred by the minority of hard brexiters, and start focusing on sharing power in coalitions from now on.
Brexit shares a lot in common with the French Revolution, the Revolutionaries didn't know how to end the revolution and ended up eating each other, eventually a status quo of sorts returned, much like what is happening in Italy at the moment.
Bojo awful in PMQs.
It looks like JC does not want an early/snap election I wonder why 😄
It will solve nothing for all the reasons stated ad infinitum on STW and all over the media.
It'll either put paid to the "will of the people" argument (if remain wins) or kill stone dead any hope of ever revoking (if they don't).
Neither of which will "solve" anything, agreed, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have any effect.
.
It looks like JC does not want an election I wonder why
Because although he wants Brexit he doesn't want a no deal Brexit.
It's pretty obvious really.
Sorry for my previous post. I’ll delete it.
Because although he wants Brexit he doesn’t want a no deal Brexit.
It’s pretty obvious really.
He can always let the voters choose by saying he does not want No Deal. Make it clear. How hard is that?
Tories can say whatever they wish and also let the voters choose.
Sorry for my previous post. I’ll delete it.
All fine here. Make nothing off it. Be yourself.
It looks like JC does not want an early/snap election I wonder why
Probably for the reasons already well discussed.
Thank ****.
This is a timely reminder about the Killfile. It’s very effective in blocking nonsense.
Yeah, we get it pjm...
Probably for the reasons already well discussed.
Thank ****.
PM BoJo in PMQ (few mins ago) just said Labour will let EU dictates the timescale to Brexit. Why not let people choose?
Moving on, Boris seems to be struggling to be coherent and consistent today. At least Jezza, not to mention a few rebels seem to have studied the Johnson playbook over the summer.
Look, instead of having to install killfiles, how about someone else hide his posts for me? It would work on mobile then as well.
Johnson was well out of his depth yesterday (I’ve not seen today)… no wonder he wants Parliament to sit as little as possible now he is PM. The public need to see him attempting to fill his role, and attempting to explain his policies to people who are prepared and able to ask the pertinent questions of him.
Bojo is a first class **** and deserves humiliation.
Also there was a ERG bod on bbc news saying he wouldn't vote for TMs deal even without the backstop.
John Bercow I can't help it I like him (as speaker) he is body slamming Javid right now.
I think a lot of people would be far more accepting of the result of a 2nd referendum on the basis that far more is known about what brexit might entail, plus if it really is the "will of the people" then so be it. The difficulty is what 2 options to actually put on the ballot paper remain/deal/no deal. I don't think a general election will solve anything.
The bill would allow Johnson to come back to parliament after meeting the EU in October, propose no-deal as the way forward, and then justify why in the house, answer questions from MPs, followed by a vote.
Why would it get through?
Look, instead of having to install killfiles, how about someone else hide his posts for me? It would work on mobile then as well.
You want the moderators to impose that kind of censorship?
how about someone else hide his posts for me? It would work on mobile then as well.
I've been saying for years, we could really use a bozo filter.
The difficulty is what 2 options to actually put on the ballot paper remain/deal/no deal.
It's not difficult at all, as I've said before. "No deal" is not an option anyone should be choosing, it's what happens if we run out of options. The only people who want it either don't understand what it means, or understand perfectly what it means and stand to get very very rich indeed from it.
A vote should be simply, "this is what we've negotiated, do you want it or not?"
Putting a "no deal" vote to the public would be absolute insanity, even by the high standards we've set so far.
I think a lot of people would be far more accepting of the result of a 2nd referendum on the basis that far more is known about what brexit might entail, plus if it really is the “will of the people” then so be it. The difficulty is what 2 options to actually put on the ballot paper remain/deal/no deal. I don’t think a general election will solve anything.
IMO the original question is there to leave room for Parliament to debate the meaning behind Leave or Remain, i.e. the technicality of it, then perhaps let the people choose again in election based on whatever political parties advocate.
Asking for another referendum is not the answer.
The original question is as below:
Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?
with the responses to the question to be (to be marked with a single (X)):
Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union
You want the moderators to impose that kind of censorship?
It would be really useful for the select few on about their 15th life ban who keep just creating new accounts when they get kicked out. Whilst chewkw may be basically an Abject Bollocks Generator, I have no appetite for that degree of content censoring.
javid - if we do no deal we'll still have a free trade agreement with EU. Is he from the same planet as our favourite troll?
javid – if we do no deal we’ll still have a free trade agreement with EU. Is he from the same planet as our favourite troll?
I think he might be referring to WTO agreement but correct me if I am wrong?
Just had a spirited Brexit debate with the office gobshite.
He, unpormpted, started an office chat about Brexit and how they should "just get on with and leave" and "start making our own laws again" with a hint of "parliaments a disgrace".
Folk were politely nodding along until the:
"They should just give NI back to Ireland and get that out of the way so we can leave".
Stunned silence before he got called an ignorant bellend and taken to task. This is the same guy that was lauding the DUP for the staunch defence of brexit. He couldn't see any complication with just giving Ireland back, or that Unionists (even the non head-banging ones) may have an issue with it. None.
Then it should just be revoked
This. Take us back to the pre-referendum state and start from there.
As Thatcher said on another topic if you want Brexit great. Campaign for it. Win an general election to get a majority and do it. That way the people campaigning are the people with the responsibility to deliver and they will have the means to do it.
Referendums should not be part of a representative democracy. (Except in very specific circumstances).
Small history nugget on the FT:
Johnson is fielding his maiden PMQs session after becoming the first prime minister to lose his opening House of Commons vote since Archibald Primrose, 5th Earl of Rosebery, who was in office for just a year from 1894 to 1895
Johnson is fielding his maiden PMQs session after becoming the first prime minister to lose his opening House of Commons vote since Archibald Primrose, 5th Earl of Rosebery, who was in office for just a year from 1894 to 1895
Interesting 😀
History repeating itself so what happened after that? (will google later)
Has the BBC lost Farage's number? I haven't seen his Toady face for weeks.
Has the BBC lost Farage’s number? I haven’t seen his Toady face for weeks.
The Brexit Party Conference Tour (seriously) is in progress, assume he's too busy with that at the moment.
Chancellor Sajid Javid declares end of austerity
UK at risk of slipping into recession
It's going well for Boris and his chums ain't it?
Conflicted - if recession is on the way, increasing spending (which isn’t what they are proposing even if it’s being presented that way) is the right move. But you have to balance the fact that it is their economic policy pushing us into recession!!! Like someone stabbing you and then not cancelling the ambulance you need to get to the hospital on time.
Conflicted – if recession is on the way, increasing spending (which isn’t what they are proposing even if it’s being presented that way) is the right move.
From what I heard on an FT podcast a while the back end of the cycle is not the right time for stimulus. You try to do it when you think things are about to pick up. (Trump's doing it too.) Mind you, according to the podcast nobody's every tried it so maybe it'll work out brilliantly.
So most likely what Javid's doing is pure pork barrel politics and it's wrong IMHO. The UK probably isn't that far away from being able to spend a bit more freely but not this year or next. Having said that the other parties will be offering massive spendathons too so I'm not sure it can be avoided.
An election where a party gets a majority to do *something* is the way out.
Hmmm, So we're currently talking about a PM calling a General election and seeking a "mandate" for Brexit? Sounds somehow familiar.
I think my problem with all of this is that one issue has derailed our entire political system to the point of being... well pointless.
The only thing being discussed in parliament is Brexit, one referendum clearly wasn't enough as we've not long ago had an "EU election" which was treated as a proxy referendum, we're about to have the second GE inside of three years which will also be a proxy vote on Brexit...
Another GE that isn't really a GE isn't the answer. Every political mechanism the UK has is now being re-directed towards one interminable issue just to satisfy the demands of a handful of shouty, ruddy-faced haters, who are terrified of an actual second referendum in case ~3% of people have since changed their mind... So lets have a 2nd referendum.
Hmmm, So we’re currently talking about a PM calling a General election and seeking a “mandate” for Brexit? Sounds somehow familiar.
Yup a GE isn't a panacea, it could well continue the current stalemate. The difference is of the parties may campaign for remain this time and two of the parties *will* be campaigning for a referendum.
So lets have a 2nd referendum.
Also sounds familiar. But this time there are only two plausible results for another referendum. Inconclusive, or Leave. The best remainers can hope for is to go into the third referendum 1-1. A GE *could* change something.
Of course the opposition parties have a majority of 40+ now. They could take power and kill Brexit stone dead this week. (If they had the will.) That would be quickest.
But this time there are only two plausible results for another referendum. Inconclusive, or Leave.
Inconclusive is exactly how Farage described a slight win for Remain in the last referendum, so I’m sure you’re right that many would try and paint a slight win for Remain in another referendum in exactly the same way.
They could take power and kill Brexit stone dead this week.
No, there is still no majority in Parliament for that. There is no point pretending that there is.
Like it or lump it… we’re looking at an election followed by either a referendum, or more of the current mess, or a government that can push through No Deal. Make sure that you’re registered to vote…