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harikari
Harakiri.
But that would have relied on Tory MPs voting against their own government
Tory MPs resigned from government and one of those resigning ministers asked the speaker for a vote, back then. Seizing that moment and stopping the Johnson government from taking control was the last good chance to stop No Deal. Yes, it may well have failed. The same can be said of any attempt made to stop No Deal now.
What’s striking is that Johnson has a clear policy regards Brexit
Kill the poor
https://twitter.com/theousherwood/status/1168434092611911681
Tory MPs resigned from government and one of those resigning ministers asked the speaker for a vote, back then.
and plenty of others didnt. So it would have been ****ing stupid to do so.
Grieve was about the only one said he would go for it but even then last resort.
Ken Clarke stepped back from even saying it was a last resort option in July.
It only has the support it has now since Johnson removed the chance for other options and even now the support it has is unclear since it is unclear how many will put their jobs and party first.
Grieve was about the only one said he would go for it but even then last resort.
Grieve was directly quoted saying he would never facilitate a labour government led by Corbyn. Avoiding no deal is not the most important thing for him.
It should be up to the voters who forms the government. A vote before the summer recess could have resulted in a general election before we are due to leave. The ball would then have been in our court, as voters. Tory MPs would not have had to put Corbyn in power… expecting them to do so on our behalf now is odd.
A vote before the summer recess could have resulted in a general election before we are due to leave.
You can't have an election if you don't win a VONC, and the likes of Grieve said repeatedly that they wouldn't support one. I have no idea why you keep clinging on to this when it's a matter of recorded history that it never would have passed.
It is not a “matter of recorded history”, because the vote wasn’t called. Too late now. All options left have a far lower chance of preventing No Deal now that the Johnson government has full control of the mechanisms of power in a time limited environment.
Going back a couple of pages to where I was talking about government acting in the country's best interests rather than blindly giving people what they think they want, I've just tripped over this:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmmodern/337/33706.htm
"The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate. Burke's famous declaration on this subject is well known. It is only in the third place that his duty to party organization or programme takes rank. All these three loyalties should be observed, but there in no doubt of the order in which they stand under any healthy manifestation of democracy."
Seems Winston Churchill agrees with me.
page 1782 Cougar … quoted by a Conservative MP
A quote from Paul Mason…
“As I've said before: if Farage and Johnson form a pact, then the progressive parties have to form a pact. If we lose, this is the last free and fair election in Britain - Johnson's faction of the Tories will use voter ID, delegitimisation, boundary rigging etc to ensure that.”
…at first I laughed it off as a bit of election build up hyperbole… and then, half an hour later… I thought about that Mary Beard tweet yesterday about erosions of democracy being sold to “feel” quite ordinary… and Mason may well be right, and we are probably ripe for either falling for it, not noticing it slowly unfold over the difficult five years to come, or being totally unable to stop it.
At the very least, the referendum showed that it doesn’t matter how you win, as long as you win… people will then say the result should be accepted and not challenged.
What’s striking is that Johnson has a clear policy regards Brexit*
Labours policy still requires a flow chart to figure it out
*Brexit being the deciding issue in the forthcoming election
I no Corbyn fan, but given just how complex the whole Brexit shit-storm has proven to be, maybe an algorithmic solution is called for.
My problem isn't his complex ifs and buts solution, it's trusting him as a life-long Euroskeptic to at least offer a deal which ensures FOM and SM membership, or ideally remain.
Why do you have to trust what form of Brexit he will chase if elected, as long as he puts it to a public vote against keeping membership? If he does arrange something with the EU that most voters prefer to membership… that seems entirely democratic… if perhaps unlikely.
He needs to be getting out there and explaining that Labour propose a referendum with a Remain option… now… the election campaign is underway… and people still don’t know where Labour stand. And he needs to be joining in with what other opposition parties are discussing, in terms of preparing to not put candidates up for election where other parties have a better chance of heading off the Conservative Brexit Party threat (as per Mason’s quote above).
That Rees-Moggs call "Well you didn’t write very good plans if you hadn’t worked out how to mitigate, had you?" Can we get him to jump out a plane without a parachute and then come up with a good plan to mitigate what happens next.
Who is that muppet of a presenter who basically acted as a cheerleader for the smug ****er.
At the very least, the referendum showed that it doesn’t matter how you win, as long as you win… people will then say the result should be accepted and not challenged.
It's a question of confidence. Before 2016, even with our very imperfect system the general population had confidence that the results of elections (and referenda) would be upheld. Now they don't. Who knows where this will lead but the likes of Farage and Aaron Banks are waiting in the wings to take advantage. Those on here fantasing about the people being protected from themselves may yet get what they want.
and people still don’t know where Labour stand.
Speech today in Salford. It was on the telly and the radio, and covered live by newspapers. We're you not watching?
Now they don’t. Who knows where this will lead but the likes of Farage and Aaron Banks are waiting in the wings to take advantage.
waiting in the wings?
the referendum was them taking advantage
fortunately some of us are trying to oppose the fascists
We’re you not watching?
Yes. I was (well, I was listening). Speeches and letters aren’t enough. That should be obvious by now. The strategy needs to be far wider and aimed at people who don’t read or listen to this stuff.
If so many people have no idea what Labour policy is, pointing that out and hoping for better communication from the leader from here on is an entirely valid comment that doesn’t require a sarcastic response.
is an entirely valid comment that doesn’t require a sarcastic empty response.
On this thread!? You are joking aren't you?
Anyway, if televised speeches aren't enough what else should he be doing? Love Island? Strictly? Speaker's Corner? Just be patient. The election is nearly upon us, then when news editors are required by law to be balanced, you'll see a sudden ramping up of coverage of labour policy.
Rumours doing the rounds (from the same leaks about them suspending parliament) is that the self-serving mop plans to call a general election tomorrow, which he’ll get, as grandad will 3 line whip in support of it
The unelectable versus the unelectable
What fun!
There is a whole other thread where communication strategy has been spelled out by many, including those that have worked in the media, just for you @dazh. Go back and read it. The routes to prime time coverage are clear… there is no media bias keeping the leader of the opposition out of the limelight. He could be on just about any programme, any time… he just has to be happy to answer a few questions, and have his proclamations challenged.
there is no media bias keeping the leader of the opposition out of the limelight.
Newsnight have complained several times that both Corbyn & Johnson refuse to appear and be interviewed
The leader of the opposition? The potential next PM? There’s a picture of him in today’s Guardian, on his bike in Salford.
I can’t find it online to post it up (you’ll probably be seeing it once the Tory press office gets hold of it) but he looks like some homeless weirdo who lives in a tent under a railway arch and spends his days drinking cider and shouting at buses
It was used in an article about Len McClusky reaffirming the Labour parties commitment to Brexit and stressing they are not a remain party
Electoral gold-dust, right there
On the media front, Johnson refuses to engage with channel 4 news, due to some perceived slight, Corbyn simply refuses to engage with any news organisation.
The BBC Today programme have been regularly asking him for interviews for nearly 3 years since his last one. They are always told he isn’t available.
Takes up a lot of time, that allotment
yeah saw this
reminded me why voting for labour at the next GE will be foolish
That has to be the first time that McCluskey and @Binners have sought the exact same outcome*. They look to be perfectly aligned now. Strange days.
[ *that is Labour MPs now supporting the/a Tory Withdrawal Agreement ]
[ *Kinnock Jr on Radio4 also backing this now ]
Takes up a lot of time, that allotment
You spend more time mentioning it than he spends at it.
And you spend more time mentioning me mentioning it, so I reckon we’re about straight
Have to admit that I’m quite surprised that Len McClusky is looking at a realistic way out of this shit. But it looks like the least worst option now.
Doesn’t sound like what’s coming from the Corbyn bunker though (for what we know from their usual radio silence) who still seem to be wrapped up in their red unicorns fantasy, fighting the battles of 6 months ago, as well as those of the 1970’s
The Labour Party needs to wake up, sort it’s shit out fast and think on its feet this week, as that’s what Cummings will be doing.
Unfortunately Corbyn thinks and makes decisions at a glacial pace, with endless fence-sitting procrastination and then invariably gets it wrong
He’s simply the wrong man to be in this position.
An over-promoted local council shop steward
Great to hear Johnson’s press conference being drowned out by chants of ‘Stop the Coup!’
He looked really uncomfortable
Thankfully it looks like the opposition to be deal has crystallised its message into 3 words. That’s the kind of thing Cummings and his satanic ilk have been outstanding at (Take Back Control) while the opposition to it has lacked focus
Before 2016, even with our very imperfect system the general population had confidence that the results of elections (and referenda) would be upheld. Now they don’t.
Before 2016, seemingly the electorate didn't know the difference between an election and a referendum. They've had three years now to work it out, but they don't appear to be listening.
We've spent decades drip-feeding the populace with lies and mistruths, the tabloids leap on any excuse to go "see that Polish bloke next door, he's the reason your son can't get a job, it's nothing to do with his lack of talent, education, skills, experience or ambition. It can't possibly be US at fault, it has to be THEM." Then the same narrative moved into politics, which is somewhere between shameful and criminal. This entire catastrophe from beginning to end is wholly based on propaganda.
So, now we can bow down to populism and go "yeah, well, we had a vote to set fire to the country so we'd better do that because something something democracy something" or we can start being honest with people. Holding the media to account for what they print would be a good start, individuals can be interviewed by police for making a stupid flippant remark on Twitter yet the national press can publish whatever shit they happen to make up that day with impunity. The whole system is fundamentally broken and people are being denied the tools they need to make sense of it all.
#stopthecoup impromptu protest outside mk station has 100 people tonight, twice as much as last week 😁
Anyone else reckon that BoJo rehoming a cute rescue puppy just days before (probably) announcing a snap election is about as cynical as it gets? Maybe that is the kind of tactic the opposition should be pursuing 🙂
Well the media long ago gave up being about news and became about clicks, likes, sharing, commenting - the more outrageous a story the better and any bad news you can kind of hide in amongst some heart-warming viral story of a cute kitten being saved from a drain or a bit of salacious gossip about some D-list celebrity's girlfriend.
Much like how No.10 has suddenly acquired a cute little doggy. Distraction.
The thick plotens...
https://mobile.twitter.com/Peston/status/1168580895437205506
Johnson will take results of tomorrow's bill as a vote of confidence and will call a GE soon after if he loses.
Assuming this comes to pass, can we count on labour not to play ball and give him his 2/3's for his GE?
Have to admit that I’m quite surprised that Len McClusky is looking at a realistic way out of this shit. But it looks like the least worst option now.
WTF?
Dare I remind anyone that I've had every insult from nazi/alt-right appeaser to closet brexiteer thrown at me in past few months for daring to suggest the same. What's up? The culture war not looking so appealing now we're staring into the abyss?
Much like how No.10 has suddenly acquired a cute little doggy. Distraction.
Good choice of dog, though. Bit scraggy, lots of high pitched yapping and will probably try to hump anything within reach that stays still for more than five seconds. To finish the perfect metaphor, it will be filmed scrabbling around at the base of a lamp post whilst an Alsatian or St Bernard walks up, doesn’t even notice the scruffy, yappy little dog, and pisses all over it before going on its way.
mattyfez
Member
Assuming this comes to pass, can we count on labour not to play ball and give him his 2/3’s for his GE?
You want the opposition to not bring down the government?
Good choice of dog, though. Bit scraggy, lots of high pitched yapping and will probably try to hump anything within reach that stays still for more than five seconds. To finish the perfect metaphor, it will be filmed scrabbling around at the base of a lamp post whilst an Alsatian or St Bernard walks up, doesn’t even notice the scruffy, yappy little dog, and pisses all over it before going on its way.
That is because you've spent the past half a year playing the populist tune. You victim blame center left remainers for the current assault on democracy and the fact that the Tories are in power, because your precious Corbyn did not garner their respect.
The reason that people are mistaking you for an alt-right troll, is that populists on both sides of the political spectrum often appear to be and actually are of the same disposition.
CH4 live ...
You want the opposition to not bring down the government?
Yes. Not right now, any way..
Think about it.. If Labour support a GE, no deal brexit will happen in the meantime. It's boris's master plan that labour will jump for a premature GE.
That is because you’ve spent the past half a year playing the populist tune.
As in the same solution Binners now seems to be supporting?
The reason that people are mistaking you for an alt-right troll
There you go again. Keep it up, just gives me more ammunition when I get round to doing something about it.
You want the opposition to not bring down the government?
Agreeing with the government wouldn't normally be considered bringing them down.
How it would pan out is anyone's guess in practice but, not voting through a GE then immediately calling a VoNC since he's effectively just admitted he can't get the confidence of the house has potential, the theory being you could put in someone who can command that confidence and force through legislation to at least ask for an extension. If it goes to a GE at the moment no deal is a done deal really as there's no mechanism to postpone it for which there's time.
Thank the whips of both main parties for that.
Blair is right, a GE now is a monumental trap.
If an extension can be agreed for a general election, than I’m all for it. The opposition parties have no chance if they try and fight it like a normal election though… they have to realise what they are up against and seek to game our FPTP system… they are up against the two Leave campaign teams with their gloves off, not the Conservative party of old… normal conventions and staying just the right side of laws and limits is over for the nationalist right.
The culture war not looking so appealing now we’re staring into the abyss?
https://twitter.com/chakrabortty/status/1168593619722391553?s=21
The Gordon Brown thing about the EU offering an extension without us asking is also interesting.
Which may be why were getting the panic from Boris which is what the threats of deselection smells of.
If this if offered the Vonc/ge issues isn’t a problem and Boris battleships sunk.