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Done under the cover of upholding democracy in response to remainers attempting to overturn the original referendum. You can’t have it both ways.
Again, Daz - how many times does it have to be explained to you.
The referendum was not binding around a single type of brexit - and in a representative democracy, the oppositions has a right to carry on representing it's base - it is up to the right or pro-brexit wing to respect that. Our conventions that should be respected are those which I have just stated, which you are choosing to ignore.
It is not the fault of remain that democracy is being eroded, it is a result of a combination of right wing ideology and right wing opportunism that is eroding democracy. As has happened in the past.
You are conflating populism and mob rule with democracy, you are wrong again, you keep being wrong, I suggest that you take some time to consider how wrong you have been repeatedly now.
I highly suggest you read James Kirchicks "End of Europe" before you start banging on about the erosion of democracy again.
I do struggle to see why dazh is getting such a hard time here.
The referendum (stupidly) was leave or remain. The country (not including myself) voted for leave.
Simply remaining because the original minority doesn't agree with leaving stinks.
Now, things have changed, the complexity of what leaving actually means and the fact that a decent deal is impossible, and the only real option is no deal should lead to another referendum on no deal vs remain.
I can't see how any legal wrangling to get out of no deal will fly with the general population.
I do struggle to see why dazh is getting such a hard time here.
A mixture of classic herd-mentality groupthink and touch of anonymity driven internet bullying I'd suggest. Social media just can't handle people who don't completely conform to the majority view, and we all know what that is on here on this subject.
Hang around for a bit, they may get round to calling you a nazi in a few pages time. 🙂
I do struggle to see why dazh is getting such a hard time here.
The referendum (stupidly) was leave or remain. The country (not including myself) voted for leave.
Simply remaining because the original minority doesn’t agree with leaving stinks.
Now, things have changed, the complexity of what leaving actually means and the fact that a decent deal is impossible, and the only real option is no deal should lead to another referendum on no deal vs remain.
I can’t see how any legal wrangling to get out of no deal will fly with the general population.
We are not simply remaining because of "remoaners", that is a right wring lie. It wasn't a binary vote, it was never sold as no deal vs remain - which is why, as you point out there needs to be a second referendum.
Real democracy requires that.
Hang around for a bit, they may get round to calling you a nazi in a few pages time.
You have an appetite for pushing alt-right propaganda, which you are never able to defend. And then wonder why people think that you are either a right-wing troll or a useful idiot.
But yes Daz, you're right - you'd be free from supposedly being victimized by centrist "neo-liberalism" and wouldn't have to live under a "humbling" Tory Reich if those nasty metropolitan elite remoaners voted Corbyn and stopped holding up our glorious exit from the European Union.
We are not simply remaining because of “remoaners”, that is a right wring lie. It wasn’t a binary vote, it was never sold as no deal vs remain – which is why, as you point out there needs to be a second referendum.
Real democracy requires that.;
Please be aware I am 100% remain. I can only see myself losing out from any leave deal. I am deeply opposed to leaving on an individual, local and national level.
It wasn’t a binary vote,
It WAS a binary vote. That's the issue. It was madness to simplify it to that. But it absolutely was a binary vote. There was no option to decide what kind of leave people wanted.
People voted for leave, which can only be taken as "anything but remain" until there is another referendum to explicitly what leave means.
Sadly, this seems highly unlikely to happen, so now we must start working towards making sure this Tory government is outed come the next GE and start to rebuild.
t WAS a binary vote. That’s the issue. It was madness to simplify it to that. But it absolutely was a binary vote. There was no option to decide what kind of leave people wanted.
People voted for leave, which can only be taken as “anything but remain” until there is another referendum to explicitly what leave means.
The vote itself was binary, the debate around it was not and it was never assumed or made clear by those that created and lead the referendum that this would ever be a binary choice of no deal vs remain.
The anything but remain idea is not valid, people who voted to leave did so often under the impression that there would be a deal. Not to mention that if no deal was being discussed as something that was possible, as opposed to something that was brushed off by vote leave, then more swing voters would have been galvanized into voting remain.
It's absolutely a failure in democracy, but the responsibility lies with the Tories and vote leave.
The vote itself was binary, the debate around it was not and it was never assumed or made clear by those that created and lead the referendum that this would ever be a binary choice of no deal vs remain.
Totally agree.
I can't help but feel that weaseling out of things with a legal battle will just make things worse.
Extending another 6 months won't move the conversation forward at all.
I really feel it needs a new referendum on no deal, May's deal or Remain.
Social media just can’t handle people who don’t completely conform to the majority view
Yours unfortunately is a mainstream even majority view, Daz. Resignation and demission rather than fighting something you don't agree with.
Willful submission. Roll over and be shat on by all those that manipulated the vote.
You have an appetite for pushing alt-right propaganda
There you go again. Your obsessive mission to paint me as a far right sympathiser is pretty amusing as I'm 100% comfortable and confident with the fact that I'm the very opposite, and if you spoke to anyone who knows me they'd confirm this.
Obviously though, anyone who disagrees with your towering intellect must automatically be a nazi (stop using the alt-right bollox btw, we all know what you're talking about), or an idiot. And you wonder why I don't reply?
rather than fighting something you don’t agree with.
I see little of that on here TBH. I see lots of calling people idiots, morons, nazis, racists, gammons or whatever, along with people celebrating job losses in industrial areas and anticipating the coming economic crash with a certain amount of glee at the effect it will have on those at the bottom. If that's what 'fighting something you disagree with' looks like then yeah, I'm having no part in it.
Still no answer as to why it is remain that is the enemy of democracy Daz.
nazi
You don't have to be a nazi to ascribe to national populism.
Dazh has tied himself up in knots… just leave him in peace.
Still no answer as to why it is remain that is the enemy of democracy Daz.
Because people voted for anything but remain.
This is the madness of asking people "head or tails" over something that is deeply complicated with many shades of grey.
People can't be blamed for voting on the only options they had though.
As I've posted above, "the anything but remain" idea is not valid, people who voted to leave did so often under the impression that there would be a deal. Not to mention that if no deal was being discussed as something that was possible, as opposed to something that was brushed off by vote leave, then more swing voters would have been galvanized into voting remain.
The "anything but remain" is an idea that might prove popular with a lot of leave voters, but the democratic thing to do is not to cave into that - and instead make the case for why democracy requires another vote.
The issue though, for a lot of the leave voters that DazH talks about and the reason they are opposed to a second referendum or parliamentary debate - is not that they are reacting to a democratic deficit, it's that they have had too much of it. People don't like democracy, it's too fuzzy, with too many compromises to be made. What a lot of people want is strong, charismatic leadership, from someone who they think cares about their needs. They have a want and a need to abdicate the responsibility for their lives to a higher power, whether it is a charismatic leader or god. Remember, universal suffrage isn't even 100 years old, peoples attraction to authoritarian rule is 1000s of years old.
Done under the cover of upholding democracy in response to remainers attempting to overturn the original referendum. You can’t have it both ways.
As has been said before we have a PARLIAMENTARY Democracy. It's one thing leaving the EU being in the Tory manifesto, it's another getting a manifesto pledge through parliament - but that's how it's supposed to work.
Now M. gove won’t rule out ignoring the law and boris is saying he might refuse to step down if he fails a VONC?
Forget brexit, if this is allowed to fly we’re living in a text book dictatorship
TBH I think they’re playing to their new base (Brexit party)who they need to come back, I’ve heard people full of respect fo Boris as he is getting stuff done.
(When in reality he’s doing nothing but preparing for an election and getting the blame lined up to everyone but the Tories)
I think Doms gave em an election play sheet and they’re sticking to it.
You only have to see the money being promised to everything, they’re playing the people for the oncoming election.
This lot said months ago that suspending parliament was bad now they’re all for it, anything for a ministerial car.
Led by the man promising to lie in front of the bulldozers.
Do you honestly believe anything they say ?
A mixture of classic herd-mentality groupthink and touch of anonymity driven internet bullying I’d suggest. Social media just can’t handle people who don’t completely conform to the majority view, and we all know what that is on here on this subject.
Hang around for a bit, they may get round to calling you a nazi in a few pages time. 🙂
Do get over yourself. You get a hard time because you're just plain wrong. HTH. (-:
The “anything but remain” is an idea that might prove popular with a lot of leave voters, but the democratic thing to do is not to cave into that – and instead make the case for why democracy requires another vote.
I agree. Another vote is the only option I feel. Blocking no deal via legislation whilst I agree with the outcome will only lead to more issues down the line.
This is all irrelevant though I feel now. No deal is happening, we must prepare the to turn things around after.
This is all irrelevant though I feel now. No deal is happening, we must prepare the to turn things around after.
I think the only thing we’ve learnt about Brexit is that nothing is predictable about it.
It's funny that remoaners are still getting the blame
The reason we haven't left yet is because the brexiteers had no plan
The backstop was an inevitable consequence of their idiotic red lines.
Now on top of the fraud & illegality of the ref itself Johnson has shut down parliament & Gove says they'll ignore the law.
Appeasing angry leavers by crashing out without a deal is pointless, when we leave & things get even worse they'll only demand a harder shift to the right, first it was Brexit-even farage was promising Norway, now that not enough it's got to be hard Brexit or bust... what comes next- rounding up EU citizens?
Blocking no deal via legislation whilst I agree with the outcome will only lead to more issues down the line.
No, it will be preveting more damage & a harder shift to the right
If Brexit has failed it's because the brexiteers had no actual plan for what follows (johnson still doesn't have one) if they did we'd be well on the way to sunlit uplands by now.
We need to make sure they get the blame
Making scapegoats of the EU, remainers, enemies of the people etc is taking the country down a dark path. We need to stand up to it.
Reading this thread and other debates online suggests that the Brexit debate is becoming increasingly polarised.
People who want to remain being called traitorous remoaners and people who want to leave being called morons. Objectivity appears to have gone out of the window.
I have to say that I agree with a lot of what dazh is saying and I think he’s getting a fair bit of unfair stick to be honest. I think it’s hard to have a sensible debate with so much at stake and the understandable high emotions that come with this.
While I would be very happy for a second referendum I’m not convinced the result will change, even if it’s a choice between no deal and remain. There’s so much misinformation about it’s becoming increasingly difficult for your average Joe to get their heads around what’s what.
In my view Maybot’s deal is the best solution and Labour should back this. It’s far from perfect but there is no perfect solution to this mess. It does, however, respect the result of the ref without sending us off a cliff.
PS
I am not Teresa May 😀
Objectivity appears to have gone out of the window.
I don't think it ever existed in the whole debate. If it did, there would be no question of leaving.
I don’t think it ever existed in the whole debate. If it did, there would be no question of leaving.
Not necessarily. Some would still be in favour since they would be able to profit.
Some whilst thinking they are objective would be misinformed and so in favour.
Many (I suspect) would accept they arent completely objective and informed but not realise how badly misinformed they are and also be in a position where they are so badly screwed they decide its worth a gamble anyway.
In the recent years a lot of people have lost out and are deciding sod it its worth a roll of the dice.
It does, however, respect the result of the ref without sending us off a cliff.
Apart from it doesnt. All it does is punt the issue a couple of years down the road. All the actual hard negotiations still have to made. Thats the bit which is often ignored.
Maybots deals was just an interim solution and gives pretty much total control to the government without them having to use interesting legal tactics like johnson the tosser is doing.
Shame Theresa didn't do this to Boris and the ERG nut jobs.
I wonder if Boris even knows the meaning of 'hypocritical bastard'...
Oh well time for some tories to stand up and be counted - interesting times.
We are only where we are because we have a minority government without the votes needed to win a vote in the commons for its path. If May hadn’t needed DUP votes, the backstop would have stayed an all Ireland one, rather than an all British Isles one, and the Withdrawl Agreement could probably have been backed by her MPs eager to deregulate and diverge England from the rest of Europe. Now Boris also finds he doesn’t have the numbers to get what he wants through Parliament. There should be only two courses of action here… and both require going to the public for a vote… there should be no third option of shutting down parliament. Imaging what would be said if Corbyn was PM and tried such a move.
I think/hope No10 efforts to threatened MPs who are against No Deal may backfire…
https://twitter.com/rorystewartuk/status/1168266343793221632?s=21
I think/hope No10 efforts to threatened [Conservative] MPs who are against No Deal may backfire…
Backfire? I get the feeling there is strategy unpinning all of this. All of the reactions to the Government's actions have so far been entirely predictable. BoJo is just working through a game plan...
I get the feeling there is strategy unpinning all of this.
Of course there bloody well is. There always was.
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I think/hope No10 efforts to threatened MPs who are against No Deal may backfire…
He’s got a majority of 1 and he’s threatening to throw at least 3+ away.
Get your pens ready.
He’s got a majority of 1 and he’s threatening to throw at least 3+ away.
Get your pens ready.
That's his plan, I suspect. He'll rely on Remainers' refusal to compromise which will split the Labour vote, return with an increased majority, and push through whatever he wants.
Remainers’ refusal to compromise
What is this compromise? The Tory rebels have made it clear they will accept any Withdrawl Agreement that is put before them. It is just a No Deal Brexit that they wish to avoid. What is the compromise that they are refusing to accept?
Alternative arrangements…
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/02/irish-border-after-brexit-all-ideas-beset-by-issues
What is this compromise?
It was obvious from my post that I was talking about voters in a general election. If you and many other posters in this thread are typical of the mindset of Remain voters, then we can look forward to a Johnson government with an increased majority.
What is the compromise that they are refusing to accept?
Voting for a Labour party led by Jeremy Corbyn and getting a "jobs first Brexit" at a guess.
Loving this quote from that Guardian article:
the report said: “DExEU [the Department for Exiting the European Union] has been considering whether a paper consolidating the findings from all of the advisory groups should be published in late September/early October.
“However, we and other departments have cautioned against this given the potential negative impacts on the renegotiation with the EU and we understand No 10 are in agreement …”
Lies lies lies.
It was obvious from my post that I was talking about voters in a general election.
So what is the compromise that voters are refusing to accept?
I live in Mid Worcestershire. Even I was prepared to vote Labour it won't help as the Tory majority increased 8.3% in 2017. We are Gammon central.
you and many other posters in this thread are typical of the mindset of Remain voters, then we can look forward to a Johnson government with an increased majority.
A very good point, it's sad to say, but Corbyns failure to understand that Brexit has changed the political dynamic and very likely let Johnson in
I think the “typical of the mindset of Remain voters” barb was aimed at me. I’m voting Labour in my seat, when the inevitable general election happens. But I still think Corbyn completely dropped the ball by not calling for a VONC before the summer, and before we fell into this pre-exit period where the Johnson government holds all the cards as regards the parliamentary timetable and the timing of any election.
But I still think Corbyn completely dropped the ball by not calling for a VONC before the summer
I think too many Tory MPs were on the fence that Boris was going to capitulate at the last minute that they would of sided with him. Even now a successful VONC is hardly guaranteed.
What's striking is that Johnson has a clear policy regards Brexit*
Labours policy still requires a flow chart to figure it out
*Brexit being the deciding issue in the forthcoming election
Even now a successful VONC is hardly guaranteed.
It is far less likely to be successful now… because back then it could be supported and result in a general election before we leave. Supporting it now could well result in a post No Deal Brexit election… so Tory MPs would be asked to commit harikari without it even stopping No Deal. So VONC is now incredibly risky ‘till A50 is extended or cancelled… neither of which the current government is willing to do. Legislation is the only way forward now… and it is, sadly, quite easily neutered by a government willing to do anything.
But I still think Corbyn completely dropped the ball by not calling for a VONC before the summer,
The chances of tory MPs supporting it then was minimal. Might be one or two exceptions but most wanted to go through all the other options first before going nuclear.
As such it would have helped Boris. Plenty Labour can be criticised for but not going for the VONC early isnt one of them.
because back then it could be supported and result in a general election before we leave
But that would have relied on Tory MPs voting against their own government when it wasn't almost certain (as it is now) that we'll end up with a no deal Brexit. No chance they would have done that before. But yeah a VONC is pretty much pointless now, in terms of avoiding a no deal Brexit anyway.