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And it will work. The average person is not bright enough to work it out and the political parties are now taking more advantage of that than ever before. Doesn't matter how bad it gets, they will always believe the BS in the Daily Mail and from their mate down the pub rather than actually give it any thought themselves.
I think it is becoming a time where democracy is over and we need to better protect society from it.
By “some degree” I mean I agree totally apart from the fact it intensely annoys me that the people that didn’t vote for this will be made to go through this harsh, humbling experience too.
Just like those of us who have to go through the harsh, humbling experience of a tory government have to suffer when the other half of the country vote for them. I'm afraid that's how democracy works. I know many on here won't like it, but what's happening now with prorogation, Boris saying he'll refuse to resign if he loses a VONC, and the outrage of Gove this morning refusing to rule out refusing to implement legislation passed in parliament, these are all results of the original failure to implement the referendum result and the continuing effort to set it aside. This is what happens when you mess about with democracy. It doesn't dissappear overnight, it falls in increments, the first of which was the failure to implement the referendum result.
Flame away...
At this point, I couldn’t give a shit what they will or won’t accept.
Calm down man. Getting angry with people who don't agree with you, no matter the supposed quality of your argument is pointless. The idea that because we live in a representative democracy the views of the people are irrelevant is plainly ridiculous. We still have elections (not enough IMO), and representatives still need people to vote for them. Brexit is a f****** stupid idea, but unfortunately for us remainers we are in the minority. If we want to change that then we have to persuade the leavers to change their minds. It's the only way.
I think it is becoming a time where democracy is over and we need to better protect society from it.
I believe thats the sort of approach the brexiteer elite are fond of.
I think it is becoming a time where democracy is over and we need to better protect society from it.
The answer to the problems with democracy is more of it, not less. And by that I mean not just elections, but protections preventing undue influence by the media, complete transparency and accountability in party funding and interests of MPs, a ban on commercial lobbying, greater education of how democracy works, and yes greater accountability of MPs to uphold their promises and enact the views of their constituents.
Do you really want to live in a Chinese style dictatorship of technocrats?
In 1688 “…a fleet of 463 ships landed William and 14,000 men in Torbay on 5 November. As he advanced on London, desertions reduced the 30,000 strong Royal Army to 4,000…”
And the Dutch had earlier form in invading English waters and inflicting humiliations
“The Raid on the Medway, during the Second Anglo Dutch War in June 1667, was a successful attack conducted by the Dutch navy on English battleships laid up in the fleet anchorages off Chatham Dockyard and Gillingham…” and “burned or captured three capital ships and ten more ships of the line, and captured and towed away the flagship of the English fleet, HMS Royal Charles.”
Pretty humiliating I’d say.
One was a failed invasion, the other a raid.
Big difference.
They were also clearly not big enough failures to lodge themselves in the national psyche.
Just like those of us who have to go through the harsh, humbling experience of a tory government have to suffer when the other half of the country vote for them. I’m afraid that’s how democracy works. I know many on here won’t like it, but what’s happening now with prorogation, Boris saying he’ll refuse to resign if he loses a VONC, and the outrage of Gove this morning refusing to rule out refusing to implement legislation passed in parliament, these are all results of the original failure to implement the referendum result and the continuing effort to set it aside. This is what happens when you mess about with democracy. It doesn’t dissappear overnight, it falls in increments, the first of which was the failure to implement the referendum result
You keep parroting this but failed to respond to my earlier rebuttals. Again, classic fascist tactics there - blame the opposition for the destruction of democracy.
Slight aside, but will severing our EU membership open the door to imported Cornish Pasties and Cumberland Sausages from places like the US of A? As most of us know, the EU are selfishly ‘protecting’ us (trade-blocking us) from American-made Cornish pasties and other traditional UK products that could be made better and cheaper in America or elsewhere outside of the EU? Under current EUseless regulations Cornish Pasties must be made in Cornwall in order to carry the label. Is it any wonder that Cornwall is virtually poverty-stricken when if not for the unelected and unaccountable EUrocrats the Cornish could easily buy in frozen pasties from, say, China and sell on at a (say) 12000% markup? It beggars belief that these EUrocratic trade blockades have hammered British shopkeepers into near-defeat. Remove the blockade. Let the beef decide.
Cornish pasties “made in America” will NOT be coming to Europe September 21st, 2015 Number of views : 1955 There is absolutely no chance that the EU’s proposed trade deal with the US, known as TTIP*, will allow American products to be marketed in the UK or anywhere else in the EU as Cornish pasties, Cumberland sausage, Stilton or any other currently protected name**. Some 60 UK products are protected under three linked EU schemes that allow producers to use the name on EU markets only if they are making the products within the traditional production regions and/or using full traditional recipes."
I think it is becoming a time where democracy is over and we need to better protect society from it.
As long as I’m the benevolent dictator I’m all for it 🙂
Bah Cornish pasties at least they’ll be able to get pork pies :-),
(It’s even worse as they don’t like our current labelling regs and don’t want to have to label gm or certain colourings.)
Have a look at US vs EU eggs it’s eye opening how different our practices are to theres.
One was a failed invasion
History isnt your strong point is it? It didnt fail.
There is an interesting question about how invited he was. Did the Seven Lords and others just make the best of a bad deal or not? Certainly William was intending to attack anyway since the country was in disarray and vulnerable plus all the religious fun and games.
My understanding is the Dutch take on it is rather different to the British take. I do keep hoping a decent modern amateur level book comes out on it
As long as the Remoaners think they are getting their own way they are happy to give up living in a democracy
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
The idea that because we live in a representative democracy the views of the people are irrelevant is plainly ridiculous.
But it's true, because as you said,
We still have elections (not enough IMO), and representatives still need people to vote for them.
We vote for people. Not ideas. That is how our democracy works, always has. If it didn't, we could do away with parliament completely.
And sure, those people need policies and manifestos to win votes. Which is why, in theory at least, we have an opposition. You vote for the people / party most in line with your own views, so with competing offerings everyone should have someone they can get behind. Well, as I said, in theory.
Brexit is a f****** stupid idea, but unfortunately for us remainers we are in the minority.
"We" surely aren't. Even if no-one has changed their mind since 2016, people dying off and coming of voting age in the last three years will almost certainly have swung the majority in favour of remain by now.
If we want to change that then we have to persuade the leavers to change their minds. It’s the only way.
How do you propose to do that other than capitulating to bullies?
History isnt your strong point is it? It didnt fail.
There is an interesting question about how invited he was. Did the Seven Lords and others just make the best of a bad deal or not? Certainly William was intending to attack anyway since the country was in disarray and vulnerable plus all the religious fun and games.
My understanding is the Dutch take on it is rather different to the British take. I do keep hoping a decent modern amateur level book comes out on it
Ahh yes, invited weren’t they? Again, not much of a humiliation really was it? More like invited to an internal squabble.
The fall of Singapore was the closest re ever got to a humiliation, it invigorated Asian nationalism and set the tone for the end of the empire in the east. We managed to Comfort ourselves for a long time after because of our Pyrrhic victory against Japan.
More like invited to an internal squabble.
I love the way you seamlessly switched from "failed invasion" to this. No chance of admitting you were talking crap?
As for invited as I pointed out thats actually rather unclear as to how willing it was. After all the only known invite was from the seven lords and not parliament and the invasion was already being planned at that point.
It certainly fits the definition of invasion. If you want to use invited by some people in the invaded country then 1066 was an internal squabble as well.
It was an invasion but one with some good careful PR work although that was far less successful in both Ireland and Scotland.
Oh and I can think of several other humiliations for the British state. I will start you with an easy one of the American Revolution.
As long as the Remoaners think they are getting their own way they are happy to give up living in a democracy
I think as we (possibly) approach the end game it would seem those supporting Brexit (the government) are the ones seeking to sidestep democracy.
Oh and I can think of several other humiliations for the British state. I will start you with an easy one of the American Revolution
Again, not an era ending disgrace to the national psyche. The empire carried on as strong as ever. Singapore was.
Whether the glorious revolution was an invasion or not is an aside, it wasn’t a nation or empire ending event. Britain carried on with increased vigour, it didn’t reduce it’s standing in the world - if anything it strengthened it’s place.
It’s also been largely forgotten by the narrative that the British tell themselves.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Well you seem to think it means it's ok for MPs to ignore what the public voted for if they don't like the results so I don't think you're on very solid ground yourself.
people dying off
Oh honestly come on. When the tories (and it usually is the tories) try to gerrymander constituency boundaries after ever election victory to take advantage of demographic changes we quite rightly complain about it and oppose it. Yet now you're seriously suggesting ignoring the result of a vote because some of the voters will have died? And you wonder why leavers protest that democracy isn't being honoured?
How do you propose to do that other than capitulating to bullies?
WIth rational argument about the real issues which affect those who voted to leave, not technocratic loopholes and semantic tricks which seek to disenfranchise them.
Well you seem to think it means it’s ok for MPs to ignore what the public voted for if they don’t like the results so I don’t think you’re on very solid ground yourself.
I think that's exactly what they should do, yes.
you’re seriously suggesting ignoring the result of a vote
I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I'm suggesting that it was three years ago.
WIth rational argument about the real issues which affect those who voted to leave
Tried that. Project fear two world wars and one world cup doo dah.
I think that’s exactly what they should do, yes.
Well the vast majority of people don't agree with you. In fact we probably wouldn't be in this mess if MPs hadn't completely eroded faith in our policital system and democracy by doing exactly what you suggest on a regular basis.
Anyway, an interesting, and accurate take on this very subject in the grauniad today.
WIth rational argument about the real issues which affect those who voted to leave
As said that's been done. I already asked what new reasoned arguments would sway a dogmatic leave voter. Still waiting.
That article is hardly supportive of your position dazh, it is railing against direct democracy and bemoaning the downfall of representative democracy if anything.
It places the blame for the attack on democracy with the right and calls for a renewed defence of representative democracy.
Something that you like to bash repeatedly on here.
That article is hardly supportive of your position
As if you understand what my position is.
Bah Cornish pasties at least they’ll be able to get pork pies :-),
On food regional protection, as well as opening up the UK to imported American Cornish Pasties, does this mean that within the UK itself this will also be a free for all. Could we have Arbroath Smokies made in Devon or is there regional protection in UK law?
people dying off
Oh honestly come on. When the tories (and it usually is the tories) try to gerrymander constituency boundaries after ever election victory to take advantage of demographic changes we quite rightly complain about it and oppose it. Yet now you’re seriously suggesting ignoring the result of a vote because some of the voters will have died? And you wonder why leavers protest that democracy isn’t being honoured?
This is a rubbish argument as in your mind the votes of 2 million dead people is more important than the 3 million EU citizens currently living in the UK whose life is going to get really shitty?
WIth rational argument about the real issues which affect those who voted to leave
Incidentally, it amuses me greatly that the last three times we had this argument I suggested this to you as the "compromise" you're so desperately keen for and you roundly ignored it, and now you're putting it forward as your own cunning plan.
People Dying off + the new of age voters.
his is a rubbish argument as in your mind the votes of 2 million dead people is more important than the 3 million EU citizens currently living in the UK whose life is going to get really shitty?
I disagree with nearly all of what dazh says, however I dont agree with you on this.
Do you know that 2 million leave voters have died since the referendum?
How many of the electorate die between general elections? You cant remove a government mid term because you reckon most of the people that voted for it might now be dead. The same with the referendum result.
Well the vast majority of people don’t agree with you.
Hyperbole aside, this is part of the problem. Those screaming loudest about "democracy" either don't understand or don't want to accept what that word actually means. It's been hijacked to mean "do what we say" and that. is. not. how. our. democracy. works.
The people who disagree with what I said back there don't actually want democracy, not really. They just want their own way.
does this mean that within the UK itself this will also be a free for all.
Nope, it’s (the EU GI scheme)a popular scheme and in the event* of a no-deal withdrawal the Gov will copy and paste it from the EU and slap a new logo on it ‘unless and until’,ie
In the Withdrawal Agreement, the protection of EU GIs in the UK will continue unless and until the future economic partnership determines otherwise
*hur, hur, wink, wink 😉
Do you know that 2 million leave voters have died since the referendum?
I don't have figures to hand but statistically the older a voter was, the more likely they were to vote leave (and vice versa). Sure, not everyone who's died since the referendum will have been a leave voter - or even a voter at all come to that - but they will certainly be a majority over remain voters.
How many of the electorate die between general elections? You cant remove a government mid term because you reckon most of the people that voted for it might now be dead. The same with the referendum result.
True, but, we have general elections on a regular basis. Why might that be, hmm?
Here you go.
Cougar, I get your point, and there are many good reasons not to leave, but I dont think arguing that we shouldn't because leavers are dying off is a great one.
If people become more right wing as they get older, then perhaps there are now leave voters from those that voted remain on the basis that they are now 3 years older.
I’m not suggesting anything of the sort. I’m suggesting that it was three years ago.
I'm suggesting that you're trying to have it both ways. You may think it justifiable to ignore the result, but at least be honest about it rather than engaging in ever more acrobatic logical gymnastics.
As long as the Remoaners think they are getting their own way they are happy to give up living in a democracy
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
It tells me that he gets his opinions and "facts" from the Daily Mail, which I believe claims to have invented the word.
I find it quite useful, as it means I can immediately discredit and ignore anyone who choses to use it.
Nope, it’s (the EU GI scheme)a popular scheme and in the event* of a no-deal withdrawal the Gov will copy and paste it from the EU and slap a new logo on it ‘unless and until’
But the U.K. can stop it at their whim thou whereas if it was EU they’ed have to work harder.
Copy and pasting laws over means fk all tbh.
the Daily Mail, which I believe claims to have invented the word.
Ah, I was referring to "democracy," not "remoaner."
If the majority of the population don’t want a No Deal Brexit… and a majority of the MPs they elected don’t want a No Deal Brexit… but the government pushes ahead with it anyway… then all the arguments about public will vs the judgement of MPs is irrelevant… both are being ignored in that scenario… actually, more than ignored… subverted.
Cougar, I get your point, and there are many good reasons not to leave, but I dont think arguing that we shouldn’t because leavers are dying off is a great one.
You could actually go to the people and ask them what they want thou in lieu of the MPs being unable to reach consensus.
And after the easiest deal ever that may have been mentioned mutating into no-deal(that was never mentioned before the result thou) would that be a bad thing ?
Cougar, I get your point, and there are many good reasons not to leave, but I dont think arguing that we shouldn’t because leavers are dying off is a great one.
I'm not holding that up as a reason to leave, rather that we're working from out of date information. The claim is that leave is the majority position, I'm positing that this is untrue. Which kinda puts "the will of the people" on shaky ground, doesn't it.
Look at it this way. All the vocal leavers are dead against having another referendum. Why do we suppose that might be? They should be all over it like a tramp on chips, an opportunity to silence the pesky remoaner minority for good.
Not only is leave a minority opinion now, deep down they all know it is.
If people become more right wing as they get older, then perhaps there are now leave voters from those that voted remain on the basis that they are now 3 years older.
Perhaps, or perhaps the older you are the more likely you are to have always been right wing. I honestly don't know. I doubt however that many people have changed their political leanings 180' in the last three years.
You may think it justifiable to ignore the result, but at least be honest about it rather than engaging in ever more acrobatic logical gymnastics.
I don't know how often I have to explain that I'm not saying we should ignore the result. We've spent three years trying to honour it, that's one pretty un-ignored result right there. What I'm saying is that as time goes on it becomes less and less relevant.
In any case, there are plenty of ways of honouring the result without driving us off a cliff edge. But this is a page 2 argument.
Just a reminder of what the government has been up to in the last three years. I'm not sure remoaners thwarting democracy because things haven't gone their way is entirely the issue.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1168108396605857792.html
We’ve spent three years trying to honour it, that’s one pretty un-ignored result right there.
Not forgetting that in 3 years the greatest question in this thread has never been answered.
What will you be able to do once we’ve left that you couldn’t do now?
Even outside this thread I’ve not seen an answer part from er blue passports or tread grapes.
I’m not holding that up as a reason to leave, rather that we’re working from out of date information. The claim is that leave is the majority position, I’m positing that this is untrue. Which kinda puts “the will of the people” on shaky ground, doesn’t it.
Look at it this way. All the vocal leavers are dead against having another referendum. Why do we suppose that might be? They should be all over it like a tramp on chips, an opportunity to silence the pesky remoaner minority for good.
I agree with this. Although I am sure we agree that this is largely down to having more accurate information, facts and knowledge consequences of brexit than we had 3 years ago.
I am just suggesting that this is a better argument to take back to the people rather than having another referendum because people have died off.
I’d like that to be true… but, with many notable exceptions no doubt (I know some septuagenarians who voted Leave and now want another referendum in which they say they’d vote to stop Brexit in any of the forms currently being proposed), surveys suggest that the rise in support for EU membership is more to do with all the new young voters being counted, rather than older supporters changing their minds. Sadly. Whether all those that have come of voting age in the last three plus years should have a say now… well, I’d argue they should… someone else can try and make the case for why they shouldn’t. Arguing that their wishes are less important than those of people who are now dead is even more tricky… but I’m sure someone will try…
Just a reminder of what the government has been up to in the last three years.
https://twitter.com/wmarybeard/status/1168037270194012160?s=21
What I’m saying is that as time goes on it becomes less and less relevant.
Ah, so we should leave quickly. Boris is doing exactly what you want.
Despite a change of PM, this government has been held in contempt of Parliament.
That seems to have been brushed aside.
That alone is astonishing to me.
Now M. gove won't rule out ignoring the law and boris is saying he might refuse to step down if he fails a VONC?
Forget brexit, if this is allowed to fly we're living in a text book dictatorship.
Forget brexit, if this is allowed to fly we’re living in a text book dictatorship.
Done under the cover of upholding democracy in response to remainers attempting to overturn the original referendum. You can't have it both ways. Either we stick to democratic principles and conventions, however weak they are in our 'constitution', or we don't. The public understand this simple point which is why there isn't wider outrage at what Boris is doing, and why he will probably get away with it.