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Plenty of people who had campaigned for Remain then went on to propose a compromise position, rather than “remain or bust”… including in Parliament (where both main parties whipped against them). Some have now reluctantly moved to a position of wanting an extension and a second referendum, because all compromise is painted as “not Brexit” or even “treachery”… or “overturning democracy”.
What does your “position of mitigation” look like… with some detail please…? Not just “the benefits of the Single Market” or some such empty headline.
rather than seriously trying to mitigate the damage
what would you have remainers do, daz? the very people you might expect to prepare and attempt to mitigate are those most able to, yes, but they're also those whose views are most widely ignored. your tactic is at best compromise, but more accurately described as appeasement. it's never going to work. give them an inch and it becomes a mile. look at it. the once considered extraordinary, acts of madmen or rogue actors, are now commonplace. easy deal becomes may's deal becomes no deal. when the suspension of parliament was announced the other day i wasn't even that surprised.
those who are so widely ignored and sneered at for wanting remain, will now do their best to look after themselves. the disaffected will reap what they've sown, and the likes of cummings will shrug their shoulders and say 'what did they expect?'
i'm afraid there really is nothing else to be done, other than buy that chest freezer and stock up on tinned goods.
hope the demo goes off peacefully.
the disaffected will reap what they’ve sown, and the likes of cummings will shrug their shoulders and say ‘what did they expect?’
I’m not relishing it but I think the shit has to truly hit the fan before we can move on and begin the Rejoin movement.
This Remoaner an Brexiteer stuff really needs to end.
what would you have remainers do
Make a positive case for limiting the damage, while accepting the result. The drift towards no deal is a result of the hard right being able to argue that remainers were attempting to reverse or ignore the referendum result. It gave them all the ammunition they needed to promote their no deal fantasy as the only way to uphold democracy. It wouldn't have been appeasement, it would have been common sense to regroup and fight on another front, but unfortunately the remain side allowed themselves to be sucked into a binary argument which they'd already lost.
those who are so widely ignored and sneered at for wanting remain, will now do their best to look after themselves.
There's been a lot of that on both sides. But yes, the end result will be something almost no one wanted unless everyone pulls back from the brink. We'll see, I still think no deal won't happen, if only because it's completely unthinkable. I have zero faith in Johnson, but given his history I don't think he's the arch-no dealer he pretends to be. His only motivation is to come out of this as the hero and that's not going to happen with no deal.
Unfortunately, if Johnson does somehow avoid a no deal, the price will be him winning the subsequent election. We might have to accept that as the lesser of two evils.
Hmm… this idea that the push for No Deal from the right has been gaining ground because of a lack of compromise from those that campaigned/voted Remain is nonsense. Hundreds of MPs supported the Single Market, Customs Union, Common market 2.0 etc, when given the chance to vote in Parliament… but only a small handful of them were supporters of the Leave campaign. The lack of compromise has been from those using the referendum result to shut down any option that would facilitate a close relationship with other European countries after we have left.
The drift towards no deal is a result of the hard right being able to argue that remainers were attempting to reverse or ignore the referendum result.
No, because the reason leavers voted against the deal was that the deal was a compromise THEY didn't want either. To them, any deal is ignoring the result.
Make a positive case for limiting the damage, while accepting the result.
So you are saying by your admission that remainers should switch from a position which would not cause damage, to a position supporting damage limitation, because if we dont we are by the back door allowing serious damage to be done??
Is this a serious position??
Your belief above states that brexit of any form will be damaging to various degrees, so why are we doing it?
I am firmly of the belief that upholding the result of a referendum, where the quality of information and facts on offer was so weak, is not a good enough reason to go ahead with it.
I am firmly of the belief that upholding the result of a referendum, where the quality of information and facts on offer was so weak, is not a good enough reason to go ahead with it.
And I suppose you can't see any reason why leavers shouldn't just accept this? This is exactly the line of argument the no deal nutters are using to conflate a no deal brexit with upholding the referendum result. Most people who voted leave didn't want no deal, but they do expect the result to be honoured, and they prioritise that over having a deal if the alternative is no brexit at all.
And I suppose you can’t see any reason why leavers shouldn’t just accept this?
No, however either MP's have another go at sorting it out, or options go back to the public with more information.
After blanket coverage of the issue, if people wish to vote leave again, they at least know Ireland exists and that a border between Ireland and NI is not a figment of someone's imagination.
We can then vote on what you seem to agree are the options.
1) Damage the country a little bit.
2) Damage the country a lot.
3) Dont damage it at all.
There could be a complaint from voters that the 'damage the country vote' could be split, handing victory to the no damage side. I can live with this though.
Most people who voted leave didn’t want no deal, but they do expect the result to be honoured, and they prioritise that over having a deal if the alternative is no brexit at all.
In that case how do you expect any reasonable argument to win over dogmatic belief?
Reason has been exhausted long ago, other than retreading old ground I'm at a loss as to what you actually expect would sway a leaver.
dazh
Subscriber
And I suppose you can’t see any reason why leavers shouldn’t just accept this? This is exactly the line of argument the no deal nutters are using to conflate a no deal brexit with upholding the referendum result. Most people who voted leave didn’t want no deal, but they do expect the result to be honoured,
Maybe, maybe not. But the thing is, it's not important what "most" leave voters want- because practically all of them have to want it to retain the majority. If even 4% of leave voters don't want no deal brexit, then that's the difference between "the people's will" and not.
So do 96% of leave voters want no deal, or any brexit as long as it's brexit? Incredibly unlikely.
A majority of a majority can be a minority. And there is the rub… they know they are pushing through something with only minority support (in the country at wide, as well as in parliament) which is why another referendum or a vote of MPs to get a mandate for No Deal (or any particular deal) isn’t their way forward… “interpreting” the 2016 vote is. But, that minority is very likely to reward them with a general election win… so from their point of view, their logic is sound.
^^ Bunch of hypocritical scumbags eh?
And I suppose you can’t see any reason why leavers shouldn’t just accept this?
You know what?
At this point, I couldn't give a shit what they will or won't accept.
I'm getting bored of saying this now because it doesn't seem to ever penetrate your skull, but the UK is a representative democracy, not a direct democracy. What they want doesn't matter. What you want doesn't matter. What I want doesn't matter. Parliament are our representatives, not our delegates. It is LITERALLY their job to best serve the country, not cowtow to the whims of its populace.
And I could explain, again, why your "compromise" is no such thing because it's something neither side wants, and propose a compromise that actually is a real compromise, but remind me, what's the definition of insanity?
You make some good points about why people think what they think and why things have panned out the way they have, but your conclusions are deeply deeply flawed and if you did, genuinely, vote remain and still stand behind that now then your leaver apologist schtick is an embarrassment to yourself.
Because as much as you try to get people onside with your "hey, Theresa's brexit is better than no deal" you're convincing precisely no-one, and if you think we're going to just roll over and go "yeah, OK then" then you're barking.
Christ, at this point I don't even know why I'm bothering to reply. You don't acknowledge or engage, you don't want a discussion, you just keep trotting out the same deceit.
Theresa's Brexit means nought what she negotiated was a withdrawal agreement, we don't know what terms we will interact with the EU on in the future even if TM's WA was to be voted through. Its crazy really, we're not even half way through this whole fuq-up.
I absolutely do not want a second referendum. I think the MPs should just wear there mistake and revoke A50.
A lot of people are just wanting Brexit over with and Boris seems to be the man to get it done but if these same people realised No Deal is just the start of a clusterfuq of more negotiations etc maybe A50 might be tolerated
I absolutely do not want a second referendum. I think the MPs should just wear there mistake and revoke A50.
Problem is that revoking wouldn't be legitimate in the eyes of leavers. That's why it needs a referendum, with no deal or remain on.
Cougar
Subscriber
It is LITERALLY their job to best serve the country, not cowtow to the whims of its populace.
And there it is. As long as the Remoaners think they are getting their own way they are happy to give up living in a democracy; pretty hard to get a better example of the nonsensical Remoaner thought process.
Sooner we leave the better. Dragging this on any longer just makes the Remoaners more entrenched in their bizarre views.
I absolutely do not want a second referendum. I think the MPs should just wear there mistake and revoke A50.
Then the Brexit party will gain serious ground in the following election and split the Tory vote possibly reducing the party to a political insignificance or enough that labour gets a majority over them.
Boris and the Tory MPs won’t let that happen as the Tory party’s the vehicle that’s paying their wages so er we get shafted so they get to keep a job.
Sooner we leave the better. Dragging this on any longer just makes the Remoaners more entrenched in their bizarre views.
Oh aye. Not wanting to run your country into the ground is bizarre now is it?
And there it is. As long as the Remoaners think they are getting their own way they are happy to give up living in a democracy; pretty hard to get a better example of the nonsensical Remoaner thought process.
But Cougars right, I’m not seeing your point.
In the 18th century the philosopher Edmund Burke argued that MPs should not be beholden to their constituent’s wishes, and be free to exercise their own judgement in Parliament:
“His unbiased opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion."
In doing so MPs are freed to act in the national interest, rather than simply fighting to improve the lot of those in their constituency.
I’m not agreeing with it but this ‘trustee model of representation’ is a thing.
Dragging this on any longer just makes the Remoaners more entrenched in their bizarre views.
Best expressed by that notorious remoaner MP Edmund Burke in his speech Speech to the Electors of Bristol
It's pointless arguing the toss with fervent brexiteers, they deal in emotion, not facts, reason and logic. I think it comes from years of being fed bile every morning by the right wing press, that shit will screw you up
And there it is. As long as the Remoaners think they are getting their own way they are happy to give up living in a democracy.
Of course! Democracy best served by suspending parliament in case they disagree with the executive's chosen course of action! Nothing says democracy like literally stopping it in it's tracks!
Jesus Christ on a bendy bus! You'd think you couldn't make this shit up, however...
It’s pointless arguing the toss with fervent brexiteers, they deal in emotion, not facts, reason and logic. I think it comes from years of being fed bile every morning by the right wing press, that shit will screw you up
This +1.
This is how stupidity is made into, first a virtue, then a weapon.
“You’ve worked hard for your suburban semi with its superb little lawn, but if Labour get in they’ll give it to a drug addict or an asylum seeker”.
Little England.
Here's the cold hard reality that Brexiteers need to understand and need to be told.
We need immigrants. In fact, if their post brexit utopia actually happened and we turned into some manufacturing powerhouse, we'd need even more immigrants.
We have very, very low unemployment. We don't have enough skilled or unskilled local nationals to fill all the jobs if we slashed immigration.
Immigration will not go down post brexit. EU nationals will not want to come to the UK at the same levels they have done. We will therefore need to look beyond the EU and that most likely means the Indian sub-continent, Africa etc.
In very crude terms (that I don't like) were going to need a lot more "brown people".
Start hammering that message and the swivel eyed loons will change their tune.
Net immigration will not, and cannot, go down.
We've already seen talent flight from the NHS. We can't magic up British doctors, nurses etc overnight, or in any realistic time frame.
ctk
A lot of people are just wanting Brexit over with and Boris seems to be the man to get it done but if these same people realised No Deal is just the start of a clusterfuq of more negotiations etc maybe A50 might be tolerated
You bring up something that is crucial and needs to be screamed from the rooftops.
There it's a huge part of the country so tired of Brexit that they just "want it done" genuinely, genuinely thinking that once we leave that's it and things can go back to normal. That needs to be corrected and widely recognised.
That ignorance and apathy is working well for Leave but could swing a massive amount of people to ending Brexit entirely. They just need too know that leaving is the start, not end of the process!
People need to be made to understand that leaving is the EASY bit and the years of negotiation to come will make the last 3 years seem like a mere blink of the eye in comparison.
People need to be made to understand that leaving is the EASY bit and the years of negotiation to come will make the last 3 years seem like a mere blink of the eye in comparison.
They will not understand that. They believe the WTO nonsense, yet do not understand what that actually means. They believe we, as a nation of 1, will be able to get better deals than as part of the EU with no downsides. Facts and logic will not change their view.
I'd say we actually need to adopt the tactics of the leave campaign. Terrifying them that were going to be over run with immigrants if we leave etc
^^ Yeah. I'm probably giving the populous too much credit here.
What a sad, sad situation.
I’ve missed quite a bit of this thread over the past couple of days, but poor dazh seems to be getting some stick. He is not responsible for this mess, as far as I can tell he doesn’t want Brexit any more than anyone else. Remain have, barring a miracle - lost, no deal is inevitable. The time for all these arguments was before the referendum. I have heard of nobody changing their mind recently, just become more entrenched.
Somehow my YouTube recommendations have had pro Brexit videos and I have watched a few. They are hugely depressing. The arguments are weak, but the name calling is familiar, as is the passion.
I see little to provide any hope, the best remain could possibly wish for is the highly unlikely chance of a second referendum - we would lose that too!
The time for all these arguments was before the referendum.
But… way back then… the discourse was between people saying we could be like Norway, or Iceland, or Switzerland… and those saying that our existing unique terms of EU membership were preferable. A long forgotten set of arguments… the comparisons were not between membership and the UK shunning any kind of deal with the EU. Those arguing for Remain could not put forward the reasons why membership was better than No Deal… because if they tried they were derided as scaremongers… because No Deal was never going to happen (as far as those arguing for a Leave vote maintained).
But…
I agree, you’re right. But, I fear that whatever is said or done now it is essentially too late. No petition or march will change anything. Corbyn going on hunger strike will not change anything. Also, whilst what you say may well be true, the remain side were rather lacklustre/complacent before the referendum.
^^ So essentially, give up and go with it?
^^ Yeah. I’m probably giving the populous too much credit here.
What a sad, sad situation.
The Brits need a good disaster to learn, they have never had a French Revolution, the last time they were invaded and humiliated was 1066, they have never had a cultural revolution, they have never been a-bombed, they have never been liberated by the United States of America.
Brexit will hopefully give them a taste of what a good hard ****ing feels like.
It’s good for the stupid ****s, enjoy it for what it will be.
raybanwomble
The Brits need a good disaster to learn,
I do see where you are going with that and to a degree I agree.
By "some degree" I mean I agree totally apart from the fact it intensely annoys me that the people that didn't vote for this will be made to go through this harsh, humbling experience too.
That really boils my blood.
The ones that voted for it and still stand by their vote,sod them in all honestly.
In reality of course, we are all buggered.
It's horrible to be essentially tied into a death pact with someone you don't even want to even stand next to let alone jump off a talk building with.
Brexit will hopefully give them a taste of what a good hard * feels like.
It’s good for the stupid *, enjoy it for what it will be.
Indeed. I do wonder that if we leave on no deal,and the inevitable happens, who will they place the blame on.
The rose tinted view of somehow winding the clock back to a simpler/happier time (in their eyes) completely ignores the fact life has moved on. As a country we are no longer the industrial/ manufacturing country we we're, but generally prosperity and living conditions are vastly better than they were "back in the day" and people are wealthier and healthier generally.
The stark reality is we're not going to start mass producing iPhones,TVs etc here unless we're willing to pay much more for those items. Like £9k for an iPhone! Yet these people think that's what's going to happen.
I do see where you are going with that and to a degree I agree.
By “some degree” I mean I agree totally apart from the fact it intensely annoys me that the people that didn’t vote for this will be made to go through this harsh, humbling experience too.
Well, at least we haven’t had to put up with the same crap that the voices of reason in Germany and Japan had to put up with.
Silver lining etc.
The stark reality is we’re not going to start mass producing iPhones,TVs etc here unless we’re willing to pay much more for those items. Like £9k for an iPhone! Yet these people think that’s what’s going to happen
Well that could've been our economy if we'd not stuffed our faces on cheap junk from China and elsewhere.
Which we all know is based on low wages.
Not a Brexit point but 1100 lorries a day crossing the channel with car parts is not 100% a good thing is it? It's ****ing crazy we do this really.
This is more like it
Not a Brexit point but 1100 lorries a day crossing the channel with car parts is not 100% a good thing is it? It’s **** crazy we do this really.
We should stop doing that and sign free trade deals with our friends in America, Australia and other nations on the opposite side of the world. Then we can bring them across thousands of miles on eco friendly airplanes and cargo ships.
Not a Brexit point but 1100 lorries a day crossing the channel with car parts is not 100% a good thing is it? It’s **** crazy we do this really.
An awful lot of these come from the furthest reaches of the EU - Romania, Turkey, Poland, even Morocco has seen a large increase. You can all guess why this is.
There is a drive to get some of this supply chain back into the UK and currently a huge manufacturing park is being built right next door to Nissan. So far not many suppliers have signed up as they can't make the sums add up, maybe this will change post-brexit but whether it changes enough to encourage Nissan to stay depends entirely on the tariff environment they find themselves in.
raybanwomble
...The Brits need a good disaster to learn, they have never had a French Revolution, the last time they were invaded and humiliated was 1066...
This sounds like a humiliation and invasion to me:
In 1688 "...a fleet of 463 ships landed William and 14,000 men in Torbay on 5 November. As he advanced on London, desertions reduced the 30,000 strong Royal Army to 4,000..."
And the Dutch had earlier form in invading English waters and inflicting humiliations
"The Raid on the Medway, during the Second Anglo Dutch War in June 1667, was a successful attack conducted by the Dutch navy on English battleships laid up in the fleet anchorages off Chatham Dockyard and Gillingham..." and "burned or captured three capital ships and ten more ships of the line, and captured and towed away the flagship of the English fleet, HMS Royal Charles."
Pretty humiliating I'd say.
Indeed. I do wonder that
ifwhen we leave on no deal,and the inevitable happens,who willthey will place the blame on The EU, remoaners, immigrants, foreigners, descendants of immigrants, lefties, etc.
ftfy