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Surely the point of being a 'caretaker' PM is that you don't enact any policies?
Or at the most, only a pre-agreed set / agenda.
But of course anyone who refuses to join in with the hysteria and snobbery must be on the other side right?
I'm afraid that we're still in a situation where half the country refuses to listen to the other half. The difference now is that the "wrong" half is in charge, so those used to getting their own way in life don't like it very much. And I say that as a fully paid up middle class remainer.
Or at the most, only a pre-agreed set / agenda.
Watch the Channel 4 news Clarke interview … he made precisely that point … agreeing and setting out that agenda is what really matters.
This lot are at least consistent.
Steve Barclay seems to have the same comprehensive and highly informed knowledge of how international trade functions as Dominic Raab
The difference now is that the “wrong” half is in charge, so those used to getting their own way in life don’t like it very much.
“Half” the country are not “in charge”… a small group around Johnson, Raab, Mogg etc are in charge, and they are quite used to “getting their own way in life”.
the remain side of the argument has been trying for 3 years to overturn the result of a referendum which hasn’t yet been enacted.
If you aren't trolling then why do you persist in these lies?
No-one is trying to overturn anything. The referendum, and I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned before, was mandatory - it was established in court that May triggered A50 of her own volition. If the referendum was declared unlawful tomorrow it would change nothing. There is, literally, nothing to overturn.
There is, literally, nothing to overturn.
Why do you persist with this bollocks? You know perfectly well that the Cameron government was committed to taking us out of the EU in the event of a Leave vote, as were the May and now Johnson governments.
Yes, that is their political choice. With most of their voters being fervently anti-EU… and needing to win back voters currently supporting the Brexit Party, it makes political sense to ride that horse to stay in power. The referendum was advisory… but any Tory PM would be foolhardy to oppose Brexit at this point (and arguably foolhardy to oppose a No Deal Brexit).
Half” the country are not “in charge”…
Probably because they won't fit round the Cabinet table. But you knew what I meant.
Yes, that is their political choice.
To deliver on a clear promise? The bastards.
Exactly … their promise, their choice. Nothing to do with the Referendum being binding as regards any policy, on any government, or any parliament.
No-one is trying to overturn anything.
Is that the new trick in remainer logical acrobatics? That brexit never happened? Of course it didn't, what the hell has all the fuss been about, it was just a figment of May's imagination! And people wonder why the leavers are winning.
Nothing to do with the Referendum being binding as regards any policy, on any government, or any parliament.
Give it up man. The people were invited to vote for a govt which promised a referendum, and they did. The govt promised to enact the result of the referendum whatever it was, and the people made a decision. They now expect that promise to be delivered on. There were no caveats, no side clauses, no loopholes. They asked a question, they got an answer. It's that easy.
Exactly … their promise, their choice. Nothing to do with the Referendum being binding as regards any policy, on any government, or any parliament.
It had everything to do the referendum, because the subsequent actions were made perfectly clear to the electorate, and were confirmed at the last general election Arguing otherwise is pathetic whining from those who didn't get their own way.
There is a different and valid argument that no-one voted for No Deal.
Is that the new trick in remainer logical acrobatics? That brexit never happened? Of course it didn’t, what the hell has all the fuss been about, it was just a figment of May’s imagination! And people wonder why the leavers are winning.
You haven't drunk enough kool aid.
Is that the new trick in remainer logical acrobatics?
Yeah, it's to counter leavers' "fabricating things and presenting it as fact" tactic.
That brexit never happened?
It hasn't.
And people wonder why the leavers are winning.
I think most of us are well aware of why they're winning.
I think most of us are well aware of why they’re winning.
Because they won a referendum by a clear margin. Not what I or many others wanted, but that's the simple reality.
So @Dazh… are you now against Labour policy? Will you still be voting for them? Or are you now fully behind the Tories and their policy to deliver Brexit come what may with no further vote first?
are you now against Labour policy? Will you still be voting for them?
No, and yes. I think I've made my thoughts on a second referendum clear, it's a bad idea that won't solve the problem. But as many have said, it's not contradictory to ask the people to confirm their support for a deal once they know the detail.
Just because remain lost (sorry, they did), doesn't stop people continuing to make the case that it's a mistake. But it has to be done honestly and openly, not with these silly logical gymnastics or fringe manoevres. If people agree then they'll vote in a govt which promises to change things, and will vote in a new referendum to either continue with brexit or stop it. Labour offer that opportunity.
We should be clear though that there is no mandate for no deal, and the people never supported it. Remainers shouldn't confuse that though for not supporting brexit at all.
So… the referendum held in 2016 was advisory, it is not binding on this or future governments and parliaments, and it is now a political choice whether to plow ahead and leave come what may, or pause and have a vote on whether to do so.
While we're on advisory/mandatory nature of the referendum, it's worth repeating that the courts have judged that, due to the Leave campaign being a such bunch of shysters (I'm paraphrasing), if the referendum had been binding, the result would have been overturned.
The result would have been voided if it had been a binding referendum.
Because they won a referendum by a clear margin
nah- they lied, broke the law, stoked up fear & xenophobia that helped get an MP shot, theyve turned the country into a laughing stock, added years on to austerity, and set the country on a path to the hard right, theyve got their no deal brexit, next step- low tax, low welfare, slashing standards, opening up teh NHS to US pharma... and they are pulling the tinpot dictator move of shutting down parliament to make sure it happens
Ill 'fess up, I dont respect brexit
whats amazing is that you do
So… the referendum held in 2016 was advisory,
It was. On the advice of the result, parliament voted to invoke Article 50 and enshrined it into statute.
it is not binding on this or future governments and parliaments,
No, but the legislation they made off the back of it is binding until it's either enacted or repealed
and it is now a political choice whether to plow ahead and leave come what may,
No. It's a statutory requirement. See above
or pause and have a vote on whether to do so.
A vote won't cut it. Only a new law can stop it.
You need legislation to hold another public vote and/or to change our date of exit, or cancel our exit. We get that. Thanks.
Surely the point of being a ‘caretaker’ PM is that you don’t enact any policies?
Yep, but Corbyn's biggest issue with many people is trust. His words and actions don't always match up and many fear that they might get rid of one wannabe dictator only to replace him with another willing to play hardball politics.
Will he call a GE straight away, or decide to run till the end of parliament to "see us through" would he call a 2nd Ref straight away, or offer a Socialist Brexit with or without agreement with the EU?
I think a caretaker PM should be as non-partisan as possible, yes Ken Clarke is an old-school Tory, but he really doesn't care about what Tories think of him, he's no interest in being PM for real and a joint cabinet with members from all the major parties should work short-term.
They have won
Johnsons already let it be known if hes voted out in a VONC he wont leave
what happens then? - we get told its just the 'will of the people' and how dare we object to it?
We should be clear though that there is no mandate for no deal, and the people never supported it.
i'm pretty sure that a proportion of those who voted leave, voted for precisely no deal. if you accept that this is not what the majority of leavers voted for, then you have to accept also that any version of leave has little mandate.
remainers are very clear what they want. it's a travesty that so little regard is paid to that single block's wishes.
voting for a labour party that won't win an election and promises to press ahead, just like the tories, is just repeating the experiment of 2017 and expecting a different result.
whats amazing is that you do
There's a difference between respecting brexit and respecting the mechanism that instigated it. All elections are subject to lies, misinformation and external influences. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have them though or respect the results of them, because the alternative is not having them, and that is a much more scary and dangerous thing than any single policy or government which results from them.
They now expect that promise to be delivered on. There were no caveats, no side clauses, no loopholes. They asked a question, they got an answer. It’s that easy.
And 17 million are still waiting, they haven't gone away just because their not engaging in internet discussions, going on marches or signing pointless online petitions. But they do expect the result of the referendum to be delivered in some form at some point. If it doesn't happen they'll just vote for whatever bunch of wack jobs who will.
It'll be this political change that'll break Britain not leaving a trade/economic union.
What kimbers said.
As the saying goes, lots of turkeys have voted for Christmas. On the back of a load of lies and racism. And now the vultures are in charge, figureheaded by an grinning idiot, steered by a psycho.
Brexit is all the wrong answers to the wrong question.
I would love A50 to be binned, however realistically the only way forward has always been a second referendum.
voting for a labour party that won’t win an election and promises to press ahead, just like the tories, is just repeating the experiment of 2017 and expecting a different result.
Quite!
I think a caretaker PM should be as non-partisan as possible, yes Ken Clarke is an old-school Tory, but he really doesn’t care about what Tories think of him, he’s no interest in being PM for real and a joint cabinet with members from all the major parties should work short-term.
I agree - he doesn't seem to want to be PM which would make him ideal.
Does no deal mean no deal ever, not even a really ,really good one?
Should the mainland be struck off the map and no one allowed to visit there?
At some point a deal will have to be made, how is that going to be sold to the braying masses?
It's only the memory of those good people marching upon London that stops me absolutely hating this country.
I think we need a general strike. See how that ****er manages with no taxes from his despised businesses.
Nobody knows what no deal means.
However, "they" do keep saying that when we've had no deal, we'll be free to negotiate our own trade deals.
I would expect the UK starts with trying to secure a brilliant deal with the largest and nearest block of our trade partners. Maybe as part of this trade deal we could call ourselves part of this nearby block, help them decide what to do, give and take financial and military and political support, have some mutually beneficial border policies to allow any UK nationals to work over there and any folk from there to work here, etc etc.
THM promised the adults would take charge? Any sign yet?
I would expect the UK starts with trying to secure a brilliant deal with the largest and nearest block of our trade partners. Maybe as part of this trade deal we could call ourselves part of this nearby block, help them decide what to do, give and take financial and military and political support, have some mutually beneficial border policies to allow any UK nationals to work over there and any folk from there to work here, etc etc.
I think this is true, the drift back in is inevitable. However, *maybe* the outcome of the UK leaving would be to trigger other countries to leave and that might force the EU to abandon the federal Europe project.
So the organization we drift back into might be very different to the one we're leaving. That outcome might please some people (....and displease others!).
However, *maybe* the outcome of the UK leaving would be to trigger other countries to leave and that might force the EU to abandon the federal Europe project.
I don't think anyone's going to be envious of our position.
However, *maybe* the outcome of the UK leaving would be to trigger other countries to leave and that might force the EU to abandon the federal Europe project.
Naah. They'll use the EU army (that will be full of Turkish people and immigrants) to oppress any doubters.
However, *maybe* the outcome of the UK leaving would be to trigger other countries to leave and that might force the EU to abandon the federal Europe project.
what country would look at the UK shutting down its own parliament & think, teah leaving the EU looks like a good idea?
(apart from the proto-fascits like Orban & Salvini- even they know the economic costs would be too great)
However, *maybe* the outcome of the UK leaving would be to trigger other countries to leave and that might force the EU to abandon the federal Europe project.
The obvious self-defeating, foot-shooting stupidity of Brexit has completely killed off any similar separatist movements throughout the whole of Europe. Even the most hardline nationalist nutters like Marine Le Pen don't even mention the idea of leaving the EU any more.
They know full well that absolutely nobody would be stupid enough to vote to end up in the political and economic chaos the UK presently is mired in
That should tell you everything you need to know about the 'wisdom' of Brexit
However, *maybe* the outcome of the UK leaving would be to trigger other countries to leave and that might force the EU to abandon the federal Europe project.
Arguably… an EU with fewer countries could more easily become more rather than less integrated (I’ll ignore the “Federal” descriptor) … not that any country is going to look to recreate the UK position, as it is likely to be in the 2020s, by giving up EU membership without moving into an EEA orbit akin to the EFTA countries.
The latest news ...
This looks like PM BoJo is full steam ahead for now.
BBC: Judge rejects temporary ban on Parliament shutdown ahead of full hearing
Nice headline. Read up on how it is actually progressing.
It’ll be this political change that’ll break Britain not leaving a trade/economic union.
I'll wager you are wrong there.