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I'm not even expecting a quote from Corbyn saying that Labour will campaign for Remain. I just want to see this statement that Labour policy is now for a Remain option in any ballot.
27 hours and I'm still waiting...
everyone else’s fault, is itv
Lexiters, Brexiters...always blaming someone else.
So, the labour party making itself completely unelectable through the sheer rudderless ineptitude of Corbyn and co is everyone else’s fault, is it?
I'll take an inept labour party over the tories any day. I actually have no problem with people voting for the libdems, but doing so in the knowledge that in many seats it'll improve the chances of the tories winning is beyond the pale.
These aren't normal times Daz. As the recent elections have shown. The Lib Dems have taken a huge chunk of the Labour vote, and are now polling above them, and the Tory's are shipping millions of votes to the Brexit party who are now polling above them
So at any upcoming General Election actually voting for the party who represents your interests will count more than it ever has before, because the traditional to me/to you two-party duopoly is now totally borked!
So if you want to vote for an inept, incompetent pro-Brexit party then you have a choice of three. The recent polling shows that a fairly hefty chunk of the electorate won't be doing that (as the many voices on this thread prove). So the pro-Brexit vote is split between 3 parties, giving the Lib Dems an opportunity they have never ever had before
Thus the backwards-looking tribalism of previous elections looks even less fit for purpose than ever. So maybe you slavishly re=turning to an inept, pro-Brexit labour party actually makes you part of the problem that will deliver a Tory Government?
I’ll take an inept labour party over the tories any day. I actually have no problem with people voting for the libdems, but doing so in the knowledge that in many seats it’ll improve the chances of the tories winning is beyond the pale.
And there we have it. Not only will Labour blame Brexit and the resulting fallout on the Tories, it'll also be the fault of those dastardly LibDems for actually having a clear, pro-Remain policy.
These aren’t normal times
They're a lot more normal than everyone here thinks. Outside of this brexit obsessed bubble there are huge numbers of people who are sick to death of it and they will vote on the same issues they always have, and the additional one of once again not being listened to by politicians.
As with all other elections the main thing for people like myself will be removing or keeping the tories away from power at all costs. Even more so Farage. That's going to require the usual tactical voting. If you're lucky enough to be able to stop the tories winning a seat and voting with your first preference then all the better. For those who aren't there's a straightforward choice.
I'm not suggesting being tribal in voting labour, I'm suggesting being tribal in voting against the tories. In that respect the next election will be no different from any other, and given that a tory govt is the 100% certain method of delivering what we remainers desperately don't want, it's should be an easy choice.
Blimey! Even uber-Corbynite Owen Jones, in today's Guardian, has had enough of the nonsense:
‘Soft’ Brexit is dead. Now Labour must really embrace a people’s vote
The group now demanding that the party shift to a position of backing a referendum with remain on the ballot paper, no ifs, no buts, is far from restricted to Jeremy Corbyn’s internal rightwing opponents. It includes, in the shadow cabinet, longtime allies and leftist stalwarts John McDonnell and Diane Abbott as well as “soft left” members such as Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry. It takes in the pro-Corbyn Scottish and Welsh Labour leaderships, and the London mayoralty; key unions, such as Unison and the GMB; and Labour members, over half of whom didn’t vote for their own party in the European elections according to YouGov – which accurately predicted the results of the first and second leadership elections.
Did you read that last bit Daz? Over half of the labour party members voted for another party at the last election. That really is some achievement by Corbyn. Yet still, the position hasn't changed? And the express intention is that it won't change until September at the earliest? When we're due to leave the EU a month later.
Absolute blind, witless stupidity! And more pertinently: complete electoral suicide.
The group now demanding that the party shift to a position of backing a referendum with remain on the ballot paper,
Woah there. According to dazh and TJ, that's already the position. Have longtime allies and leftist stalwarts John McDonnell and Diane Abbott as well as “soft left” members such as Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry, pro-Corbyn Scottish and Welsh Labour leaderships, and the London mayoralty; key unions, such as Unison and the GMB; and Labour members, over half of whom didn’t vote for their own party in the European elections according to YouGov not been keeping up to date? - or are they also still waiting for the link?
Did you read that last bit Daz?
If you go back a few dozen pages you'll see that I said I was in complete agreement with Jones*, and always have been. My simple point is that voting lilbdem in tory-lab marginals is an exercise in cutting your nose off to spite your face.
*that was in a similar piece where he said labour were inevitably heading in a full-throated remain direction and it was pointless to resist.
The group now demanding that the party shift to a position of backing a referendum with remain on the ballot paper, no ifs, no buts…
Jesus, has Owen not been listening to TJ & Dazh…? That already is the position… Jeremy said so, in a clear and unambiguous way… oh… or perhaps Owen just "wants to believe" otherwise, for some reason, eh Northwind?
🤷🏻♂️
Heres an interesting article, with some even more interstinger graphs.
Could explain Corbyns position somewhat.
That is interstinger…
It should be noted that under all scenarios this pro-Brexit Labour defectors group remains roughly the same.
Which is what I've been saying for ages. Labour's Brexit policy can not win back many voters who support us leaving, no matter what they do. There is however still the opportunity to win back millions of voters who support us remaining (but not as many as if they had changed policy before the local & European elections… any policy shift now is too late for many… unless, as that article suggests, there is also a change of leader).
Blimey! Even uber-Corbynite Owen Jones, in today’s Guardian, has had enough of the nonsense:
Owen Jones has always been remainer that accepted the result.
It's possible to like one thing and not another at the same time.
And Binners the polls are changing all the time you are weeks behind.
20 years of talks to get to a deal today. They must have not believed hard enough.
https://twitter.com/dw_europe/status/1144614042880925698
Edit @ rone.
Well, if you have one that shows leavers aren't going to vote brexit party, and remainers haven't f'd off to parties with clear remain positions, let's have it.
The vote isn't only against the Tories now. I don't know how daz can reference farage and not acknowledge the party and their likely participation in any ge. The Tory's vote, as is labour's, is split with brexit party. Remainers will vote for parties with a clear remain message. If you plan to vote tactically, as things stand, vote in such a way that the vote is not split between green and lib dem.
From the New-statesman article that mattyfez linked (great find, thanks for sharing)
Between Boris Johnson, Theresa May, Jeremy Corbyn, Keir Starmer, Jo Swinson, Tom Watson, Nigel Farage and Jeremy Hunt, Corbyn is the least trusted to do what he says on Brexit by the general public as a whole (73 per cent do not trust, 17 per cent trust).
That's pretty damning
Bbc news now. 8 tories nutters being interviewed...dear god I work with one of them 🤣🤣🤔
Meanwhile the English Independence movement seems active.
Who's behind it?
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Meanwhile the English Independence movement seems active.
Who’s behind it?
You!
athgray
You!
🙂
I don't believe in interfering in another country's democracy,
But you must admit, it makes sense.
36 hours and no link. I'm beginning to think that TJ has gone up the allotment and not returned.
I don’t know how daz can reference farage and not acknowledge the party and their likely participation in any ge.
I've acknowledged them many times, in fact I'm more worried about them than the tories as 1 brexit party MP is too many as far as I'm concerned. Farage is on record as saying he'll work with the tories and even go into coalition with them. The tories + Farage are in pole position to win another election. If a Boris + Farage coalition taking us to no deal isn't enough to scare remainers into voting tactically for labour and the lib dems where it makes sense then I don't know what is. As I've always said, we get the government we deserve, and this current obsession and unthinking polarisation around brexit will be no different. I'm sure PM Boris and Chancellor Farage will be a price worth paying for ideological purity.
I don’t believe in interfering in another country’s democracy,
But you must admit, it makes sense.
Your earlier link assumes Scotland wishing independence from the UK is absolute fact. The most recent national vote on the issue said otherwise. All we have at the minute is an opinion poll.
Also, I assume there would be massive legal issues regarding a country leaving the EU and breaking up, leaving a much smaller portion within it. Are there any credible links to say this arrangement is legal and acceptable to the EU.
In reality it's a pipe dream and an awful idea.
athgray
...I assume there would be massive legal issues regarding a country leaving the EU and breaking up, leaving a much smaller portion within it. Are there any credible links to say this arrangement is legal and acceptable to the EU.
In reality it’s a pipe dream and an awful idea.
Well I'm neither Engllsh nor a Conservative so I'm not going to dig too deep into their business.
Nonetheless it's obviously an idea being bruited about.
leaving a much smaller portion within it. Are there any credible links to say this arrangement is legal and acceptable to the EU.
I’d wager there nothing credible, in as much as it hasn’t happened already, to suggest the EU would be ok with the scenario you’ve outlined. However, small nations are part of the EU, so assuming the UK, excluding England, met EU entry requirements then I wouldn’t see them having a problem. If anything, they would love it just to really put the boot into England, which less face it, is the source of the issue at hand
epicyclo
Subscriber
Meanwhile the English Independence movement seems active.
Who’s behind it?
Dunno but none of those things in the link are arguments for English independence, they're just arguments for having better governments.
allow themselves to be pushed out of the EU by a bunch of posh-boy, xenophobic, far-right racists
Are you sure? The referendum pointed to large areas of left wing, working class, ill-educated Farage-ites voting to leave.
No it didn't. Mostly older, financially stable people voted for brexit. Survey results were posted a few pages back.
I’d wager there nothing credible, in as much as it hasn’t happened already, to suggest the EU would be ok with the scenario you’ve outlined. However, small nations are part of the EU, so assuming the UK, excluding England, met EU entry requirements then I wouldn’t see them having a problem. If anything, they would love it just to really put the boot into England, which less face it, is the source of the issue at hand
Since the UK is at an impasse on Brexit, using the logic above, the vote could be re-run but having the remaining EU countries vote on Brexit rather than the UK in the positive, forward looking democratic hope to have them 'put the boot in'.
48 hours and no link.
Perma-flounce in progress?
Project fear is in full effect.
How very ****ing dare a future leader of this country suggest that a no deal brexit will deliver anything but gold plated unicorns?
No one will need bailing out everything is going to be amazing.
I'm even thinking hunt might be a bigger **** than dumbojo.
Tory leadership: Hunt proposes £6bn no-deal bail out for farmers and fishing industry - live news
At least he seems to have a plan of some sort.
Tory leadership: Hunt proposes £6bn no-deal bail out for farmers and fishing industry – live news
Thank god for the magic money tree. Also why exactly are those two industries on the list for the bail out considering how many of their members were in favour of leaving.
Thank god for the magic money tree. Also why exactly are those two industries on the list for the bail out considering how many of their members were in favour of leaving.
Because this whole adventure is for the benefit of the people who voted leave. If they don't get what they want, it's undemocratic, remember? Remainers are the enemy of the people.
Er… why spend billions bailing out fishing and farming if we are leaving because being outside the EU will benefit these industries?
Does anyone know why we are leaving?
Er… why spend billions bailing out fishing and farming if we are leaving because being outside the EU will benefit these industries?
You traitorous remoaner Kelvin!
Asking these questions of logic and common sense. There's no space for people like you in Brexit-ville where the sun always shines. 😉
Says it all really. They don't just own the media, they own our politicians with their "donations" and directorships...
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Well, if this all ends up with Tate&Lyle & Belize farming exporters paying higher import taxes (rather than the zero tariffs they have spent millions buying politicians and campaigning to try and achieve), I'll enjoy a small bit of the fallout. If we're going to go full in on becoming a more protectionist and subsidy driven economy, we should specifically target those that have pushed us into this corner. Tighter regulation of anyone with a controlling interest in an insurance company should be part of that as well. Let's push on with Brexit, and at the some time set out to ruin those who pushed us into it to try and make gains for themselves at the cost of the rest of us. If all this misplaced nationalism and anti global nonsense results in a draconian approach to a UK owned and controlled media… bring that on as well. Make them all pay… take back control.
Does anyone know why we are leaving?
Come on Kelvin, you know why. We're leaving because for decades normal people, both working and middle class, on left and right, feel they have been ignored and f***** over by a system which is only interested in a tiny few. They got a chance to strike out at that system, which they did. Instead of blaming the people who voted for it, you might want to think about that graphic above and then ask how it got to be like that and who is proposing to bring in fundamental economic and political reform to redress balance. Clue: It's certainly not the liberal democrats.
Instead of blaming the people who voted for it
Who blamed the people who voted for Brexit? Not me. I blame the super rich (including those who became Belize ambassadors to avoid scrutiny, or own their own island to avoid tax) who campaigned for us to Leave, and now claim that we shouldn't be allowed another vote, because they fear people may not vote the same way.
I blame the super rich
We agree then. Apologies I had you down in the blame the racist gammons and thick northern oiks crowd. So which parties capable of winning power are looking to tax the billionaires and corporations and use that money to reform the market fundamentalist economy so that it answers to the people instead of a tiny few shareholders in the city of London?
Which parties are prepared to point out what Brexit really means, and allow us to stop it, if we vote to? And as for "capable of winning power", as things stand, I don't see any party forming a majority government if we have a snap election… so none of the parties look capable of winning power on their own.
And as for “capable of winning power”, as things stand, I don’t see any party forming a majority government if we have a snap election
Yes an overrall majority is looking very unlikely. However, despite the fantasies of many remainers and leavers our winner takes all electoral system means it's still very unlikely that anyone but the tories or labour will form the next govt. So which of those would you prefer? Or to put it another way, which one guarantees the result you don't want, and which one still holds out the possibly of it happening?
you might want to think about that graphic above and then ask how it got to be like that and who is proposing to bring in fundamental economic and political reform to redress balance. Clue: It’s certainly not the liberal democrats.
They can propose all they like, not going to get anywhere until a change of leadership.
So which of those would you prefer?
As things stand, I do not want be represented by either a Conservative or Labour MP, so would vote LibDem in this seat (SNP or Green if I lived elsewhere). Now, if Labour say that any government they were part of would hold a referendum with a Remain option, and the local candidate was behind that, they would win my vote in a snap General Election. Hopefully that is what will happen. Eventually. Maybe. Possibly. We wait…