Forum menu
What does that even mean?
One of the other weird things about this whole brexit debate is it's ability to make people forget how to interpret simple language. It's not like he's using big words or anything.
It was announced to the public a couple of weeks ago.
He’s a Brexiteer. Pure and simple. Deal with it and move on. Like so many of us, former Labour voters have…
With all due respect bud, dealing with it and moving on is not something you can remotely claim to have done. Though I rather wish you would.
One of the other weird things about this whole brexit debate is it’s ability to make people forget how to interpret simple language. It’s not like he’s using big words or anything
Another weird think about this Brexit debate is that people still can't see how simple language is used to be deliberately obscure. That statement doesn't really tell us anything useful.
It was announced to the public a couple of weeks ago.
Link?
I simply want him to say that a Labour government would hold a referendum with a Remain option
Yep, he just needs to say that. No need for a flowchart or any caveats. People who are Labour first and leave/remain second can then still support the Labour party on it's policies and intentions.
This Conservative government is too weak and divided to deliver a Brexit deal that meets the needs of our communities, already under huge pressure from years of austerity.
Labour has put forward an alternative plan to seek a close and cooperative relationship with the European Union, including a new comprehensive customs union with a UK say, close single market alignment, guaranteed rights and standards, and the protection of the Good Friday peace agreement in Northern Ireland.
All this talk of Labour's policy being so clear and well stated...surely a simple paragraph on the Labour Party website wouldn't be too much to ask. You know, explaining how they want a second vote, with remain options. So that the non 'politically astute' (like me) know who we should vote for...
Instead, we get the above..
kelvin
Subscriber
Well, why such interest in me shutting up and accepting that it is?
I've never said anything of the sort and not for the first time, it's really weird that this is what you manage to see in my post. Not being funny but I've taken a bit of time in responding to you, and you see what you want to see and then kindly tell me what I mean. The irony is pretty strong this time, and really does more to make my point than anything I can say, but I'm really not sure why I keep doing it.
Scotroutes. In a statement as above and also at pmqs
Scotroutes. In a statement as above and also at pmqs
so there will be a link to it?
Also, didn't Corbyn say there would be free pizza for everyone? In statement. Like one above.
it’s really weird that this is what you manage to see in my post
It's really weird that you manage to know that I "want to believe" that Labour policy isn't what TJ & Dazh say it is (and I would like it to be). Almost as weird as you saying that you think "Labour policy is clear"… so go on, If I and enough others vote Labour, and Labour go on to form a government before we have left, do we get a referendum with a Remain option? Is that what Corbyn will persue as PM? A link to the leader saying so would be fantastic… go ahead…
A link to the leader saying so would be fantastic… go ahead…
This getting beyond silly. He's been directly quoted on the record many times saying the above. Like I said, he could take a blood oath on live telly and it would still not be enough. If you don't want to vote for labour fine, but please spare us the bleating about how upset you are by it. If moral purity is your aim, vote green. They have better policies than labour and are enthusiastically pro-remain. It won't do much to stop brexit, but you'll probably feel better for it.
He’s been directly quoted on the record many times saying the above.
Link?
Should we really need archeology skills to get to the bottom of this? If he has said that a Labour government would hold a referendum with a Remain option, he just needs to state this, unequivocally, with clear language, in public, and millions of voters would return to voting for and supporting his party. He could even get himself a slot on a prime time current affairs programme to make sure we all hear him say it…
I totally agree with Kelvin here. I just went back and read what JC had said at PMQs:
"Whatever Brexit plan the new Tory leader comes up with, after three long years of failure they should have the confidence to go back to the people on a deal agreed by parliament."
That is clearly not a commitment for JC to take a labour-negotiated deal to a referendum. It refers only to a Tory leader taking their plan to a referendum.
On the subject of what is the referendum question, I also can't find a firm commitment to "remain in the EU" being on a 2nd referendum. "Options for both leavers and remainers" is not unambiguous and it is obvious that he could have made it crystal clear if he wanted. For example "a second referendum would contain an option to remain in the EU" or "a second referendum would contain options including 'remain in the EU'" would both be clear. As I said before I am a full on remainer and I would have been happy if Labour came out with a commitment to leave, but remain very closely aligned and with progressive policies. An example of an "option for remainers" would therefore be "leave the EU but remain signed up to FOM, SM, etc". An "option for remainers" is broader than "remain in the EU".
One more thing. I just saw this from Robert Peston. If Labour MPs are complaining there is no clear Labour position on this, I don't understand how people on here can claim it is crystal clear.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1143621419974168577
Have the Jezza fanboys produced their much hyped but rather mysterious Labour Ref link yet?
If Labour MPs are complaining there is no clear Labour position on this
Have another read of TJ's comments above. They're not arguing over whether there will be a new referendum with a remain option under labour as they've already comitted to that (at least they have if you're not a pedant). They're arguing about whether labour will campaign for remain in that referendum. That is still up for debate. I suspect Corbyn, as he has already hinted, will go down a Wilsonian route of allowing his MPs to campaign according to their consciences.
“Options for both leavers and remainers”
It's easier to say "option to remain" so I'm +1 on the ambiguity is deliberate front.
its almost as if Corbyn wants to stay in opposition!
https://twitter.com/HackneyAbbott/status/1144120589340356609
What's netting on a straight remain v no deal shoot off in a 2nd ref it's getting too polarised for anything else now
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1143932663008583680?s=19
Why is Diane Abbott worried? Send TJ & Dazh around to see her and set her straight…
And the warnings about the fall out from a no deal are often exaggerated… mostly by people wanting the warnings to be ignored.
I don’t understand how people on here can claim it is crystal clear.
Good question. Possibly one for Binners or kelvin amongst others to answer since they seem absolutely certain.
I am only certain that it is far from clear. Constructive ambiguity has others certain that things have been said that haven't.
Good question. Possibly one for Binners or kelvin amongst others to answer since they seem absolutely certain.
Binners does seem very certain of Corbyn's views on all sorts of things and it's no more helpful than people telling me the Labour party's position on brexit / 2nd ref remain option is obvious. I just don't see it either way because I don't hear a clear message either way.
there will be a new referendum with a remain option under labour as they’ve already comitted to that (at least they have if you’re not a pedant)
Maybe I am a pedant? Or maybe I just missed the commitment, if someone could just put it here I am happy to be corrected.
I just don’t see it either way because I don’t hear a clear message either way.
There isn't a clear message either way. For the last 3 years Labour have been trying to dance the line between leavers and remainers in the hope of keeping them all happy. Clearly hasn't worked and that has become more obvious than ever with recent results.
I can see why they couldn't say they are a remain party but they could easily be clear on 2nd ref (want one or not), options in 2nd Ref and that 2nd ref applies to any parties brexit deal (including their own)
8 hours and no link. Has TJ flounced again?
For the last 3 years Labour have been trying to dance the line between leavers and remainers in the hope of keeping them all happy.
+1, and in this day and age it just doesn't seem like a winning tactic. I certainly can't vote for a party that doesn't have a stance one way or the other on Brexit. If they're not for Remain, I just can't vote for 'em.
This has the potential to be entertaining - can't wait for all the Brexiteers to jump to Nigel's defence. I wish I had mates who'd give me £450k...
They'll spin it so it's the evil, unelected EU parliament picking on poor man-frog of the people Nige.
They’re not arguing over whether there will be a new referendum with a remain option under labour as they’ve already comitted to that (at least they have if you’re not a pedant)
No they haven't, you must be extremely naive to think otherwise.
I pay attention to politics. Not as much as some, but I do read lots.
I do not know what Labour's policy on Brexit is. I have read about it, but I don't understand it. It seems obfuscated and has weird caveats in it.
To be fair, I don't know what the Tories position is either. Though I don't think they know.
I do know what the Lib Dems, DUP, SNP and Greens policies on Brexit are. The DUP one doesn't make sense (as any Brexit policy cannot), but at least they know what it is
It seems Labour Brexit policy is whatever you want it to be.
Simply project your wishes onto it and they will magically become reality
24 hours and no link. TJ and dazh must have gone on their summer recess.
24 hours and no link.
Sent a link yesterday. If you choose not to believe it that's up to you. There's no point sending anything else because this issue is not a matter of evidence any more for you guys, it's a matter of belief. If Corbyn himself came to visit you and told you he intended to hold a referendum and support remain you wouldn't believe him.
They've announced their intentions regarding holding a second referendum. They're still debating the position on how they will campaign in that referendum, and you'll have to wait a bit longer for that.
For my money I think they'll follow Wilson's example and suspend collective responsibility and the party whip to allow MPs to vote with their consciences. It's the only way to keep the party together. Of course they've got to win an election first to get a referendum but many remainers seem hellbent on preventing that so the whole debate is a bit pointless.
Sent a link yesterday. If you choose not to believe it that’s up to you.
Where is the link to his statement that Remain will be on any proposed ballot? Come on, it's your chance to shut up the naysayers and swing the sceptics. You should be jumping on the opportunity.
If Corbyn himself came to visit you and told you he intended to hold a referendum and support remain you wouldn’t believe him.
He could tell me anything he likes, he's clearly got no intention whatsoever of actually doing it. That should be screamingly obvious to all but the most terminally deluded by now. Isn't the latest line "we'll look at it again at the party conference in September", as the can gets hoofed down the road yet again?
He's like a teenager telling his mum he'll definitely tidy his room tomorrow
These are the the word as used by Corbyn
“I have already made the case, on the media and in Dublin, that it is now right to demand that any deal is put to a public vote. That is in line with our conference policy, which agreed a public vote would be an option, a ballot paper would need to contain real choices for both leave and remain voters. This will of course depend on parliament"
I wouldn't want to go to a bookies with a fiver on Labour having a "we'd like to stay in the EU please" as an option on any ballot based on that statement. It says to me; there will be a public vote and the questions on it will vary according to whether it's a Labour or Conservative Govt, and that there will be choices.
I'm not so naive as to suggest that it's a resounding clarion call for Labour to back a remain option.
I have already made the case, on the media and in Dublin, that it is now right to demand that any deal is put to a public vote. That is in line with our conference policy, which agreed a public vote would be an option, a ballot paper would need to contain real choices for both leave and remain voters. This will of course depend on parliament
Well at least it now says "Any deal" which includes a Labour deal. However "real choices for both leave and remain voters." is not clear enough as his definition of a real choice may differ from mine.
Should England simply leave the UK for a "clean" Brexit?
As the inevitable draws closer, speculation grows as to what will actually happen to the components of the UK.
In some Conservative circles it is being suggested that England leave the Union so that it can have a "clean" Brexit, thus leaving a rump UK still in the EU. Some wags have suggested the Scottish govt would refuse them permission to do so*.
As far as England and Scotland are concerned, they are united by an international treaty between the 2 countries. So just as the UK can leave one union (EU), so can either of the parties leave this union.
Now bear in mind the Act and Treaties of Union is a Union of 2 EQUAL PARTNERS.
It is also a condition of Union that one partner cannot subjugate the will of the other. (That would mean they are NOT equal, which is clearly the opposite of the Act's Wording).
So could the Scots really stymie a "clean" Brexit for an independent England?
.
.
.
*Not at all likely unless Scottish Labour, Conservatives, and LibDems united and managed to make the SNP and the Greens disappear. 🙂
If Corbyn himself came to visit you and told you he intended to hold a referendum and support remain you wouldn’t believe him.
I would believe that he had said it, if I heard him say it. It wouldn't have to be in person, a press conference would do just fine. But he hasn't said that yet though, has he? Will he? Hopefully. Maybe. Possibly. We wait…
Well at least it now says “Any deal” which includes a Labour deal.
Does it? "Demands" suggests the act of the opposition. Where have you seen him say that a Labour government would hold a referendum?
Should England simply leave the UK for a “clean” Brexit?
In the event of the Tories pushing through a no Deal, that would surely signal the end of the union. It'd have too. There's no way that the Scottish and Irish are going to just allow themselves to be pushed out of the EU by a bunch of posh-boy, xenophobic, far-right racists in Westminster.
The main factor in that would be that, ultimately, I really don't think an ERG-led Tory government would actually care if they left. Everything must now be sacrificed on the altar of Brexit, and I think they'd see Ireland being reunified as simply solving the problem of the backstop, and they've never really given a toss about Scotland or NI anyway (or Wales, the Midlands, the South West or the north, if they're honest.)
I mean... what are they going to do? Send the troops in?
There was a good article on this in the Guardian the other day
Boris Johnson’s full English Brexit could rip the union apart
Does it? “Demands” suggests the act of the opposition.
Which is exactly where they'll stay if remainers split the anti-tory vote by voting for the libdems in seats where they have no chance of winning. Just as in the 2010 election, vote libdem, get the tories, and ironically a no deal brexit.
The lib Dems are now the anti Tory vote. It's voting labour that will split it.
I mean… what are they going to do? Send the troops in?
No need. Mark Francois was in the TA don'tchaknow
vote libdem, get the tories, and ironically a no deal brexit.
So, the labour party making itself completely unelectable through the sheer rudderless ineptitude of Corbyn and co is everyone else's fault, is it?
They'll bear no responsibility for us being landed with another Tory government?
As many, many people have said, over and over again on this thread, we won't vote for a pro-Brexit party, as we'll have the '80% of the electorate voted to honour the will of the people' bollocks thrown back in our faces by the Tory's and Labour, so **** the pair of them!
That's not our fault. That's the fault of Corbyn and his pitifully dithering 'constructive ambiguity' and his total and utter inability to actually oppose the government or build any kind of consensus.
I don't know if you missed the recent election results or the even more recent polling, but former labour voters are deserting the party by the million, and that exodus is only going to continue while 'constructive ambiguity/wishy-washy fudging' continues
Given the amount of Tory voters who are going to vote for the Brexit party, my vote will be going to a party that is unambiguously anti-Brexit. And that certainly isn't the labour party. Not under its present shambolic leadership anyway.
The lazy, complacent arrogance of Labours 'they've nowhere else to go' attitude to its voters makes it even less appealing