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As things stand, I do not want be represented by either a Conservative or Labour MP
Neither do I, I'd much rather have a Green MP, but that's not possible at this time.
so would vote LibDem in this seat
So what are the Lib Dems doing to end the austerity imposed upon the people who voted for brexit and change the system so that rich corporations like Facebook (who employed their former leader) pay the tax that normal people have to pay?
Do you not think that issues such as brexit cannot be solved until the system that caused it is reformed? The lib dems were cheerleaders and integral actors in the austerity imposed on the country over the past decade. They still defend it, which is ironic because it's the main thing that caused the thing they claim to be completely against. And they accuse others of wanting their cake and eating it!
Are you in a labour-tory marginal BTW?
I think the Brexit Party could win this seat, as it happens, as the vote will get split 5 ways, but I won't be voting Conservative (the most likely 2nd place party) to try and stop them.
I've said what Labour need to do to win my vote in a snap General Election. State that they would hold a referendum with a Remain option if they formed a government. I now think that even though that would win back millions of other voters as well, it won't be enough for them to win more seats than the Tories… I fear that now requires a change of leader… sadly… because they don't have the time or means to make that happen in time. What a mess. Deliberate time wasting and ambiguity hasn't proven to be some kind of masterful long game, unless the game was just about keeping control of an opposition party that is.
If we leave we're not going to have 2 old pence to rub together. You can have any number of policies that benefit the less well off, but if you can't afford to implement them, it's all so much pie in the sky. In the event of a general election this is the point I shall make to my labour mp. If Labour won't offer a people's vote and campaign in favour of remain it won't matter. The lib Dems are waiting with open arms for the votes of the majority of Labour voters disillusioned by Labour's 'position'.
If we leave we’re not going to have 2 old pence to rub together.
Maybe. But that's a problem in itself, because we're always being told there's not enough money to pay for schools, hospitals, humane benefits, investing in jobs, fighting climate change etc. But there's always money to pay off the DUP, to fight wars, to bail out bankers, to give tax breaks to the rich, and to pay for ill-considered political experiments like brexit. So it's little wonder that leave voters don't believe the politicians, civil servants and business leaders when they're told brexit isn't possible.
Brexit isn’t an ill-considered political experiment, it’s a far right coup
Brexit isn’t an ill-considered political experiment, it’s a far right coup
Enabled by the Labour party.
Enabled by the Labour party.
It's like a ritual chant from some weird cult. You'll all be burning effigies soon and speaking in tongues.
It’s like a ritual chant from some weird cult. You’ll all be burning effigies soon and speaking in tongues.
Well this is the #FBPE thread
It’s like a ritual chant from some weird cult.
What? Like, "Jobs First Brexit" ?
Still, at least you've stopped repeatedly telling people on here that Corbyn has already said that he has adopted as party policy what they, and most of the Labour movement, would like to see him backing.
Or even '80% of voters in the last election voted for a party pledged to respect the result of the referendum'
Have Labour changed tack yet? If they have did anyone send Len a memo?
Well this is the #FBPE thread
Hilarious that you felt the need to put an explainer in there. Keep up gramps.
we’re always being told there’s not enough money to pay for schools, hospitals, humane benefits, investing in jobs, fighting climate change etc. But there’s always money to pay off the DUP, to fight wars, to bail out bankers, to give tax breaks to the rich, and to pay for ill-considered political experiments like brexit. So it’s little wonder that leave voters don’t believe the politicians, civil servants and business leaders when they’re told brexit isn’t possible.
If we have a pot of cash to do all those things at the start of your rant, we have to divide that up and someone is always unhappy they haven't got enough, any clues how that fundamental problem should be fixed?
The bankers paid it back now, give or take.
If you don't give the rich some tax breaks they cheese it off to far flung principalities anyway.
Leave voters have believed some of our politicians, unfortunately that was Farage and the other nutters.
If you don’t give the rich some tax breaks they cheese it off to far flung principalities anyway.
Not if they have to pay the difference in tax between what they pay in the tax haven and what they would at home. The Americans have it right on this point. If you have an American passport you either renounce your citizenship or pay your tax.
Those able to avoid tax ****ed off to tax havens long ago and it's not reduced taxes that will get them to pay at home, it's the threat of losing their passports.
The first thing I'll do when I'm dictator is put and end to non-dom status of this bunch of ****s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_non-domiciled_status_in_the_UK
Have Labour changed tack yet? If they have did anyone send Len a memo?
TJ is writing it as we speak.
oh daz is back. Wonder if he's got that link for us yet?
To be fair to Magic Grandad, he has actually changed position
He’s gone from disengaged bystander, happy to sit back and let the Tory’s get on with Brexit, facilitating when necessary*, to now being actively hostile to anyone within his own party trying to stand in the way of it, and being as obstructive as possible, so as to stop anything being done by the Labour Party to prevent us leaving the E.U. in October.
If you still think Corbyn is anything other than a rabid Brexiteer, then you’re clearly in the advanced stages of denial. If you look at the journey he’s taken, he’s gone consistently in one Farage-esque direction. He might as well just join the ERG and have done with it.
* whipping his MPs to trigger Article 50, leave the customs union, and the single market
Just check the quote on the previous page, This is labour policy. A second ref on any deal with leave and remain options. announced but ignore by the press several weeks ago. I posted the direct quote.
Post it again. The bit where it says there is a Remain option on the ballot. Also send a link to longtime allies and leftist stalwarts John McDonnell and Diane Abbott as well as “soft left” members such as Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry, pro-Corbyn Scottish and Welsh Labour leaderships, and the London mayoralty; key unions, such as Unison and the GMB; and Labour members, over half of whom didn’t vote for their own party in the European elections according to YouGov, because they all missed it too.
4 days. Show us the quote.
Lol TJ, stop blaming the media for any on-going lack of clarity on Labour's position.
Have a look at Labour's own web-site: https://labour.org.uk/issues/labours-plan-brexit/
The ONLY time that page mentions a referendum is "respecting the referendum result" i.e. it's pro-Brexit and then just the usual fantasy of they'd negotiate a good deal.
You really expect to be taken seriously saying their position is absolutely clear and they fully support a second referendum? Rather than just making statements just to try and appeal to both sides of the electorate?
This is labour policy.
> sigh <
"All the right words, just not necessarily in the right order."
And you missed out "Demand a…" and "real choices for…" for a start… but thanks for your caveat free interpretation.
Yes because that is clearly what was said!
I am not the one making up fantasy positions here.
that it is now right to demand that any deal is put to a public vote
And what happens if we vote Labour into government? Do we get a referendum then? With a Remain option?
"A real choice for Remain and Leave voters" isn't the same as "a Remain option on the ballot paper". This must surely be clear to you.
Are longtime allies and leftist stalwarts John McDonnell and Diane Abbott as well as “soft left” members such as Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry, pro-Corbyn Scottish and Welsh Labour leaderships, and the London mayoralty; key unions, such as Unison and the GMB; and Labour members, over half of whom didn’t vote for their own party in the European elections according to YouGov also making up fantasy positions?
Labour respects the result of the referendum, and Britain is leaving the EU. But we will not support any Tory deal that would do lasting damage to jobs, rights and living standards.
From Labour's web-site. Are you telling me Labour is so disorganised that they can't update now supposedly out-of-date information on their own web-site when it concerns the single biggest political issue of our generation? They're either grossly incompetent and not fit to govern (any more than the Tories) or they're deliberately muddying the waters with conflicting statements about their Brexit position in order to maximise their voter appeal. That's not a bad strategy in a way but stop defending that position to those of us that only want to back a party with a clear pro-Remain or at least pro-second referendum position.
Indeed. There's a big difference between a 'Remain option' and 'options for Remain voters'.
Indeed. There’s a big difference between a ‘Remain option’ and ‘options for Remain voters’.
Even if there shouldn't be . . .
Whether there's a difference or not, the ambiguity is still there, which I what still concerns many of us I think...
the ambiguity is still there
And seems to have done its job as it has suckered in both dazh and TJ.
I have not been suckered. It's not me who cannot read simple words
Some of you so hate Corbyn that it blinds you.
I don't "hate" anybody. I struggling to believe you really can't tell the difference between what he said and what you want him to have said.
Do longtime allies and leftist stalwarts John McDonnell and Diane Abbott as well as “soft left” members such as Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry, pro-Corbyn Scottish and Welsh Labour leaderships, and the London mayoralty; key unions, such as Unison and the GMB; and Labour members, over half of whom didn’t vote for their own party in the European elections according to YouGov all hate Corbyn too, because they are also calling for a clear commitment to a Remain option in any ballot proposed by Corbyn.
reading words is not the same as understanding them.
I neither hate nor love Corbyn. But I can read, understand context and do notice when people and parties present woolly language in the hope that it will be interpreted as going further than stated without committing them to anything.
I have not been suckered. It’s not me who cannot read simple words
Some of you so hate Corbyn that it blinds you.
So the Labour party web-site is an attempt by right-wing media to discredit Corbyn? FFS listen to yourself, can you not read the simple words on their web-site?! Their position is STATED clear as day on their web-site yet all you're referring to is a quote (not directly to the media) that absolutely uses ambiguous language. You're so determined to believe JC is actually the second coming you're the one that's blind. I don't hate Corbyn at all, I'd vote Labour at the next general election if they unambiguously supported a second referendum with a remain option, they don't currently so I won't be voting Labour until that changes.
Some of you so hate Corbyn that it blinds you.
No we just don't trust politicians when they use ambiguous language where plain speaking should be. This phrase can easily be construed as weasel words prior to a bait and switch and their lack of clarification on the matter speaks volumes.
The trouble is that for remainers, Brexit is binary, the only suitable compromise is to revoke A50 or doom. The compromise being to enter into a process of trying to reform the EU.
^ that.
The FBPE/anti-Corbyn cult is out in force today I see. Have you all been coordinating on twitter or something? 😀
Brexit is binary
And that’s the problem, because if it is it means you’ve already lost because the decision on that was made 3 years ago. (Yeah I know, the poor little voters didn’t understand blah blah)
As I said along time ago, this will not be resolved from extreme binary positions. At some point compromise will be necessary. if compromise isn’t possible the no deal nutters are in a much stronger position to achieve their goals than remain.
'poor little voters'? Odd. ' there we are now, you've had your day, now get back in your box' seems to be more the order of the day. We're in a situation where the two candidates for pm are trying to say that their brexit is longer, thicker, and harder than the other guy's, and the choice we have now really had boiled down to a binary one, whether you like it or not. Either way if we leave the country is on it's arse for the foreseeable. At that point you may just as well let the architects of this have at it, and burn it all down. At least somone will be making some money.
I was (still am?) a believer in Corbyn-shaped labour, but I do agree that the "constructive ambiguity" has perhaps reached the end of its usefulness. IMO the country is now firmly split into 3 camps: "must have Brexit", "no Brexit ever", "bored of Brexit, don't care, can we make the country less shit please". And very few people going to be persuaded out of those camps.
However I still trust that Corbyn will do what he commits to; that's the reason for any ambiguity, he doesn't want to commit to a position and row back on it. And that means there isn't really any other option other than maybe the Greens (I have a very hard time trusting the Lib Dems given their track record)...
Meanwhile, on the first day of European parliament post-election, our anti- and pro-brexit MEPs have taken slightly different approaches.
As I said along time ago, this will not be resolved from extreme binary positions. At some point compromise will be necessary.
And as I said an equally long time ago, your concept of compromise is nonsensical. Yet here we still are. It's like divorcing parents arguing over child custody and deciding that the best compromise would be to carve the child in half and take half each.
(I have a very hard time trusting the Lib Dems given their track record)
Makes sense. I have a hard time trusting Germany because of the war.
As I said along time ago, this will not be resolved from extreme binary positions. At some point compromise will be necessary
But there's only really 4 options:
1). Brexit (no deal, parliament has already voted against this so would either need a General Election + majority government first or parliament to be ignored which would likely have some follow-on issues...)
2). Brexit (May's deal, another parliamentary vote?... would need to be a General Election + majority government first)
3). Brexit (new deal that in reality is probably a non-option at least within the next year or so)
4). Remain
So for a pro-Remainer what's the compromise position you meaninglessly allude to? 1, 2 or 3 both end up with Brexit, just differing levels of chaos immediately after followed by a huge unknown of what happens mid to long term.
The fact remains the 1st referendum was fundamentally flawed in how it was constructed and therefore should be voided. The 1st referendum should have been "Remain" or "Start Brexit and have another vote once a deal is agreed with the EU and the implications of Brexit better understood". There should always have been a 2nd referendum with a "Remain" or "Brexit with the deal (or no deal is one can't be agreed)" options.
Unfortunately we can't rewind time and get the Remainers in government to wake up to the fact people voting for some sort of Brexit was an actual possibility they needed to factor in when agreeing to the terms of the 1st referendum. So we're left sorting out the mess and the only way to do that without any hope of an agreed way to Brexit is via a second referendum, which also gives people who were lied to regarding the benefits of Brexit a chance to change their vote.
for a pro-Remainer what’s the compromise position you meaninglessly allude to?
There is actually a compromise to be had (I've said this before too). Analyse why people voted leave - which has already been done - and address those concerns. Ie, tackle the problem at its source. I do this daily at work, people come to me wanting something which is a solution that they've pulled out of their arse but on investigating what they're trying to do there's often a better way to resolve the issue they're facing.
Despite today's narrative, many people (both leave and remain) had no real idea how to vote and made their decision based on a single policy or idea. This was readily apparent from exit polls and interviews directly after the referendum.
Many people voted for tighter controls on immigration. We can do this, and make those people happy.
Many people voted for more money to the NHS. We can do this, and make those people happy.
Many people voted for a change - any change. This has arguably already occurred, the two-party politics race is as dead as a Norwegian Blue.
Many people voted out of a belief that they don't like the way the EU operates. We can propose to reform this - but only from within.
Many people voted because they believed the lies that the media have been peddling for years (bendy bananas and such codswallop). This is simply an education issue.
And so on and so on. You can give a lot of leave voters what they wanted without resorting leaving the EU. That's your compromise right there. There will always be the "brexit at all costs" gammons but there's no reaching those people, they'll never be happy as what happens. But many leave voters - I'd guess a very large majority even - are just normal people who don't fall into that category.
No we just don’t trust politicians when they use ambiguous language where plain speaking should be. This phrase can easily be construed as weasel words prior to a bait and switch and their lack of clarification on the matter speaks volumes.
It's very obvious what Corbyn is doing. He's between a rock and a hard place.
I was watching some programme years ago talking to I think a philosopher. The question was about politics, specifically why politicians always seem to lie. The chap gave an example. He said imagine that you are in a bar, and you get chatting to two beautiful women. You're getting along really well, then one of them asks 'which of us is more beautiful?' I think very few people would give a straight answer to that. The point is that it is perfectly possible to create an apparently simple question that answering either way would cause problems.
What we need is a second referendum with a options of Remain or a "real choice for the Brexiters".
Ooh, is that "if you hate Europe so much, why don't you **** off to Australia?" (-:
@Cougar - not sure if you're being serious or not... you can't possibly think it's as simple as that?