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Keeley , Preliminary analysis by John curtice & others says that labours stance is hurting them.
Yep, it obviously will be. Labour remainers will not like what they are doing. My point is, if Labour had a different stance (i.e second ref) nobody knows what the impact would be to the vote. What if votes also went down, what stance should they tale then. Should we have council elections every week to see what stance the voters like the most?
Both parties were bound to lose votes. The fact the tories have lost a lot more than Labour is the telling thing here though.
Kerley's take is no surprise. Full on ostrich. Remember, these results are compared to 2015, when the Tories were flying high, getting their first majority government for decades at a general election held at the same time. The shit show since is bound to lose them support in all directions (Bath & North East Somerset results I posted above being a lovely example)… but for Labour to be doing worse than they did in that election year, after which they replaced their leader, is quite something. Something major. It is not a step towards government. And their Brexit policy is key to this, nationwide. Not only does the majority of country as a whole think Brexit is a mistake now, those inclined to vote Labour are far more likely to think so than those inclined to vote Tory.
what stance should they tale then.
Remain, like over 60% of the people who voted for them and a large pool of potential voters.
Posted by Kimbers, yesterday, before the local elections results…
Somebody is awake today..
Speaking in Greater Manchester, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said he "wanted to do better" and conceded voters who disagreed with its backing for Brexit had deserted the party.
Remain, like over 60% of the people who voted for them and a large pool of potential voters.
Yep. And how do you know that would have got better results? The labour voters who don't want to remain would have then voted elsewhere. Again, you are all just guessing and making it up. Nobody knows what is going through the mind of each voter and what would cause them to vote for any particular party and a thing that wins some will lose others.
Full on ostrich.
Stop with the insults please. Just because you don't agree with me or see my viewpoint.
Head.
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What kind of ****ing moron is John McDonnell? Message received - wtf?
I suppose I have personally now got labours message - they definitely no longer want my vote. Fair enough.
We are not guessing, remainders voted for parties supporting remain. It is as simple as that.
What I am guessing is that leavers were more at a loss for who to vote for. Ukip is full on racist and they have lost faith in Tories and Labour to deliver Brexit.
If eu elections happen, Farage party will do very well from Leavers and Remain parties will do well out of Remainers.
Nobody knows what is going through the mind of each voter
Hmmmmmmm if only there was consistent polling show whether labour voters where overwhelmingly opposed to Brexit....
I must admit, if you do hold a different view on this thread, you tend to get ostrichcized
ostrichcized
Birds of a feather?
My point is, if Labour had a different stance (i.e second ref) nobody knows what the impact would be to the vote.
I think the massive swing away from pro-Brexit parties to anti-Brexit parties is in some way indicative, but that might just be me being naive.
I'm not sure you can call the anti-con/lab vote a full anti-brexit vote until you analyse the swing in the NOC councils.
Sure CON have lost loads (28 at the moment, sure to be more? ) and Lib Dem have gained, but NOC have gained more.
Lots of data on general sentiment hidden in those NOC figures.
Ostracised! Daz got sent to the gulag for daring to compare our dear EU to a dictatorship FFS. His resignation letter clearly forged - he will be missed.
He flounced because the results made a mockery of the conclusions he had constantly repeated. Laughably trying to play the victim card on the way out was frankly embarrassing (or should have been).
And called anyone who voted TIG a Tory.
Which I personally find deeply offensive, along with calling the EU a dictatorship.
Nothing has been concluded yet. I think despite what Labour are saying they will take heed of the Lib Dem increases.
I think he said the EU is a bit like a dictatorship- offensive?!
EDIT I get it - you were offended by the TIG thing not the EU thing.
despite what Labour are saying they will take heed of the Lib Dem increases.
Yes, they will. By ensuring there is no EU election or referendum.
We shall see...
he said
The way the EU works now though is barely distinguishable from a dictatorship
maybe if he'd tried to qualify that with some examples of how this is the case, he wouldnt have been mocked
if you talk nonsense you'll be mocked,
funnily enough it doesnt make this list !
PLANETRULERS.COM Head.
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And called anyone who voted TIG a Tory.
They must be pretty close to being a tory. Many of TIG were in the tory party for quite a while so would have tory "values". They just didn't like the Brexit bit but must have been fairly happy with the rest of the tory shit.
I think the massive swing away from pro-Brexit parties to anti-Brexit parties is in some way indicative, but that might just be me being naive.
There is quite a but of naivety to it yes. It is not that straight forward.
Yes, they will. By ensuring there is no EU election or referendum.
We shall see…
The narrative is being pushed hard by both parties that these results prove 'the people have spoken and told us to get on and deliver Brexit' when in reality they say the polar opposite. They're doing the groundwork with that one though. Both equally. Labour has got very Brexity indeed, with its language today
This is off the back of not a peep out of either of them with regard to how the cross-party talks are going.
Neither party want the EU elections to take place, for obvious reasons, so are preparing a stitch-up for next week
Expect Mays deal to be back in the commons next week, along with some vague wishy-washy, noncommittal nonsense about customs unions and workers rights, and a Corbyn 3-line whip to get it through.
There is quite a but of naivety to it yes. It is not that straight forward.
Well, thank you for the clarification, I now feel far more worldly-wise.
Not quite barely distinguishable but Yannis Varoufakis says this:
This European cartel and the bureaucrats who administered it feared the demos and despised the idea of government by the people, just like the administrators of oil producers Opec, or indeed any corporation, does. Patiently and methodically, a process of depoliticising decision-making was put in place, the result a relentless drive towards taking the “demos” out of “democracy”, at least as far as the EU was concerned, and cloaking all policy-making in a pervasive pseudo-technocratic fatalism. National politicians were rewarded handsomely for their acquiescence to turning the commission, the Council, Ecofin (EU finance ministers), the Eurogroup (eurozone finance ministers) and the European Central Bank into politics-free, democracy-free, zones. Anyone opposing the process was labelled “un-European” and treated as a jarring dissonance.
Yannis just wanted all of European politics to change on the back of a populist vote in his country. Fair enough, but all his comments should be read with that in mind. He's well thought out, a clear speaker and writer… but always keep one eye on his bias. Worth reading what he has to say though… always interesting and thought provoking.
My point is, if Labour had a different stance (i.e second ref) nobody knows what the impact would be to the vote.
If I had to hazard a guess, they'd do better, but it would be far from a all-win type deal.
Take Bolsover, who have elected Dennis Skinner as their MP for all-but half a century. It's a Labour heart-land and they also voted Leave almost 2 to 1. Would they suddenly vote Tory? No chance, the Tory face of Brexit is JRM and BoJo, they couldn't win a raffle in Bolsover if there was only 2 tickets. They got battered there last night, it's hard to be sure because they lost votes to Indies who don't seem to have a website etc to really show what they're about that I can find, but given the state of the Lib Dem vote, it would seem to me the good people of Bolsover just want to "get on with it".
But whilst 'the Beast of Bolsover' is pretty closely aligned to Corbyn's style of Labour, he's usually at odds with more progressive MPs, which is pretty much all of them bar a few.
In reality, I don't think, even if Corbyn promised to revoke A50 he'd reap enough of a benefit to win a GE, Maybe, just maybe a coalition with LD and SNP but fundamentally the damage is done with the people who voted 'New Labour' in 3 times on the bounce.
Saying that, if someone like Tom Watson was leader they could.
Let not forget that the Blair / Brown Labour party was one of the most popular governments in decades, and yeah the war was a terrible mistake - but it was the great recession that ended it. I think someone like Tom Watson riding a pro-remain manifesto could win a GE, Corbyn has failed to gain a following big enough on a national level, he's had a GE, he's had local elections and he'll have EU elections to try to prove he's got what it takes, but he hasn't.
I think he knows he couldn't win on a pro-remain manifesto, he probably knows deep down he can't win at all - I mean, if you can't run circles around a government as bad as we've got now, you're going to get blown away by a organised, united Tory which, which, by hook or by crook they'll have post-Brexit.
Yanis makes some good points but unquestionably parroting a man who failed utterly to do what he set out to & in just 6 months of finacial stewardship cost the greek state dearly, the blame game between him & tspiras was childish & gave insight into why he really failed
I've read Global Minotaur but nought else apart form odd articles like above. Always good on the T.V!
P-jay look at how much Dennis Skinner's majority was cut in the last general election and how the Tories won the neighbouring constituencies of NE Derbyshire and Mansfield all similar ex mining communities and very pro-leave.
This was primarily to do with Brexit - with voters going Tory via UKIP.
However given current state of Tory division on Brexit I doubt they would repeat the gains - but I can't see Labour winning back the voters either.
He flounced because the results made a mockery of the conclusions he had constantly repeated.
Yes of course I did. Wasn't at all anything to do with at various points on this thread being called a nazi sympathiser, a bellend, a f***ing idiot, and then the final straw of being labelled a communist. TBH it wasn't any of them as I have a rather thick skin, but when people start talking about me as if I'm subject under discussion as rayban did then it's probably time to get out. I suppose I could have retorted with a deconstruction of his persona on here but then I try to stick to the subject.
If you want my opinion on the election results I'll happily give it but after seeing you lot indulge in a day of seeing what you want to see circle-jerking I'm not sure there's much point 🙂
See dazh, it was great when you said you were playing devils advocate. That's a very useful role in any social bubble, especially given the bans and departures we've already had. It's just that you seemed to over-play it and you've become increasingly deaf to what other folk are saying. To then come out with the "dictatorship" thing just pushed it over the edge and now I can't give you any credibility. There was no need for personal abuse though. Hope that makes some sense.
I think someone like Tom Watson riding a pro-remain manifesto could win a GE, Corbyn has failed to gain a following big enough on a national level
Agree. Corybn is part of the problem as many people can't look past him and see the policies which would actually be good for them. Tom Watson with the same policies would be more successful.
ctk
Member
I’ve read Global Minotaur but nought else apart form odd articles like above. Always good on the T.V!
I agree, hes very charismatic
you never hear a bad word said about him, which always makes me wonder..........
in many ways he was very like May, the troika told him that they wouldnt accept his plans for debt relief without agreeing to cutting greek pensions & other reforms. but he endlessly tried to do just that, putting a tweaked version of the deal up again & again. He says he may have well been singing the swedish national anthem,
but the Troika view was that he was just pointlessly running down the clock
and as a minister this champion of democracy never partcipated in parliament (infact initially the plan was for him not to be part of syrzia- that he won election with a huge number of votes eclipsed that tho)
all swings in Leave voting seats
Barnsley: 17.3% swing from Labour to LDs
Coventry: 2% swing from Labour to Greens
Derby: 6.2% swing from Labour to LDs
Dudley: 1.4% swing from Labour to LDs
NE Lincolnshire: 2.7% swing from Labour to LDs
Oldham: 2.8% swing Labour to LDs
Peterborough: 6.9% swing Labour to LDs; 2.7% swing Labour to Greens
Sunderland: 13.4% swing Labour to LDs; 10.9% swing Labour to Greens
In particular read the section under "But in other areas, majorities are enough. Under the new system for majority voting, a law has to pass two hurdles" and this:
"Member states representing 65% of all the people in the EU have to vote for a law before it passes".
I think I would quite like to see that in our parliament. Along with a minimum requirement of the population represented by "the government" which would inevitably mean coalition even with our FPTP voting system.
Take Bolsover
Yes interesting result. Tories UP 2 seats. What's that all about?
P-jay look at how much Dennis Skinner’s majority was cut in the last general election and how the Tories won the neighbouring constituencies of NE Derbyshire and Mansfield all similar ex mining communities and very pro-leave.
This was primarily to do with Brexit – with voters going Tory via UKIP.
Aye - and us in Bassetlaw (69% Brexit) where we have gained Labour councillors last night.
Yes interesting result. Tories UP 2 seats. What’s that all about?
It's Barlborough. The very upmarket end, farms etc. The traditional Bolsover vote is still Labour with bits and bobs of independent.
Jess Phillips talking sense, yet again
And greeted with the usual predictable wailing from Corbyn’s disciples
And greeted with the usual predictable wailing from Corbyn’s disciples
Isn't she just talking Labour out of a GE? Same old sound bite stuff from that gob.