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Labour should be destroying the Tories
May fired her defence secretary the day b4 an election for leaking security info to the press!!!
But surprise, surprise John McDonnell & Brandon Lewis both tweeting that this result says voters want Brexit sorted (well called P-Jay)
Gardiner suns up labours Brexit position
https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1124097468185174016?s=19
John curtice on R4 this morning saying labours fence sitting cost them votes & more remain than leave...
Sunderland result is interesting. Labour lost 12 seats. 7 to Tory/UKIP. 5 to libdem/green. So in the most ardent leave part of England, there’s a strong feeling to stay... maybe wishful thinking.
Edit: ah ok I see. Read the above now
Good point here
The big swing to the lib Dems was inspite of their being no elections in remoaner capital London!*
*Didn't stop Johnson tweeting that he'd just voted, later deleting it when was pointed out there was no election!
I've had to turn the radio off… every take was "this is a message to both parties that we have to get Brexit done." Ie, as others have said here, press ahead with cooking up a deal and keep voters at arm length from the Brexit process.
Corbyn and those in his inner circle are all lifelong Brexiteers. And as we al lknow, they couldn't give a flying **** about anyone else's opinion. They just want Brexit
I know that lots of his incredibly naive and gullible supporters are in denial about this, but surely even these lot must be coming round too accepting this uncomfortable truth that Magic Grandad is just as keen to get us out of the EU as IDS, John Redwood or Rees Mogg.
That Barry Gardiner clip pretty much tells you everything you need to know about the labour leaderships position
A stitch up to get Mays deal through, involving Jezza 3-line whipping his MPs to get it over the line is surely pretty much nailed on now? In order that they can both avoid the humiliation and electoral wipeout that the EU elections would mean for both of them
Get ready to be sold down the river....
A stitch up to get Mays deal through, involving Jezza 3-line whipping his MPs to get it over the line is surely pretty much nailed on now?
He can three line whip as much as he likes, how many of those MP's will defy it?
Its going to be entertaining watching how both Labour and the Tories try and spin this today. We did shit but not quit as shit as we expected is a difficult line to sell
Some Conservative lady on thectelly said it's a clear message to get on with Brexit, then said we shouldn't draw conclusions when the interviewer suggested that the Lib/Green swing might indicate a public appetite for remain. I don't know who it was as my head exploded and it's only my subconscience imagining me watching that and then typing this.
Re Sunderland
26 seats up for grabs. Previously labour had 24? (There is a blue splodge in the map. Do some wards have more than one councillor?)
They lost 12 of them. Something like that. About half anyway. And the ones they lost have gone 58:42 to brexit. How strongly in favour of brexit was Sunderland in 2016? 61:39 apparently. What does that tell us?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eu-referendum-sunderland-result-vote-brexit-leave-live-latest-remain-a7098776.html
how many of those MP’s will defy it?
I don't know. I'm pretty certain that we'll be finding out next week tough, now these local elections are out of the way
I've just had a look at the bookies and the odds of a second referendum are 5/1, the odds of us leaving the EU this year are now 1.5/1, so it looks like they think a stitch-up to get Mays deal through, without a second referendum, is a done deal
how many of those MP’s will defy it?
Many. But that vote will be all about how a combination of Tory & Labour MPs will vote. Of course, afterwards, we still have a Tory government, with Brexit legislation all sorted, and a leadership election on the way. Their "fresh" face can take credit for the Tories getting Brexit through, and blame the other side for it not being everything promised. Corbyn similarly will be able to take credit for delivering the will of the people, but blame the other side for the damage. I still think that "strategy" will play out much better for the new Tory leader than the Labour leader, don't you? None of it makes sense… unless of course you actually listen to what Corbyn&Milne&Murray&co have been saying about the EU since before it was even called that.
Dazh is a...
You presume to know me from a few comments and links on an Internet forum? I don’t claim to be anything, and my various political opinions spread across a number of ideologies. Got anything to say on the actual subject rather indulging in personal abuse?
I’m out of this from now BTW, it’s got way too personal. Seems this place is infected with the same culture of petty abuse as other platforms.
I know that lots of his incredibly naive and gullible supporters are in denial about this
You may not appreciate this, but it is possible to hold a nuanced opinion about politics and politicians.
dazh -
I’m out of this from now BTW, it’s got way too personal. Seems this place is infected with the same culture of petty abuse as other platforms.
This makes me sad, although I totally understand - I think you've been a constant, balanced and logical contributor to this thread. I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said, but I do think, whenever I've popped in here (which has been less frequently of late), yours has been a reasoned and reasonable voice, and I'm sorry for what seems to have been the increasingly personal barbs slung your way.
F me, I cannot fing believe it.....BOTH Lab & Con are calling the results an endorsement of Brexit! How the F do you come to that conclusion when you’ve just been handed your ass to you on a plate?!
Fing deluded both of them..
F me, I cannot fing believe it…..BOTH Lab & Con are calling the results an endorsement of Brexit! How the F do you come to that conclusion when you’ve just been handed your ass to you on a plate?!
Fing deluded both of them..
This+++
F me, I cannot fing believe it…..BOTH Lab & Con are calling the results an endorsement of Brexit! How the F do you come to that conclusion when you’ve just been handed your ass to you on a plate?!
Don't worry, our national media will hold them to account. Oh, LauraK is singing the same tune. Colour me surprised 🤨
I cannot fing believe it…..BOTH Lab & Con are calling the results an endorsement of Brexit!
And thats why, next week, they'll engineer a stitch-up to get Brexit through. Their own self-interest will unite both main parties in scuppering any EU elections taking place.
The Socialist who sold himself as Mr anti-establishment will do a behind-closed-doors deal with the Tories to nod through a hard right, anti-immigrant, neo-liberal capitalist project
BBC's front page headline is
"Main parties hit by Brexit backlash in polls"
And Laura says:
"But at this stage of the morning, there is one message to both of the main parties at Westminster from this enormous set of elections - it's not us, it's both of you."
Where does she say it's an endorsment?
This from the BBC:
“Brandon Lewis, Conservative Party chair, said voters had given his party a very clear message they were "fed up" with the Brexit deadlock and "they want us to get it done".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48142181
Radio4 this morning was Tory and Labour voices lining up behind the "the voters are telling us we just need to get this done" narrative. And "journalists" were repeating not challanging that line. Predictions on Wednesday, by the same journalists, was 400+ gains by Labour. LibDem&Green gains instead hasn't seen their chatter move away from a "the people just want Brexit done" line one inch.
This makes me sad, although I totally understand – I think you’ve been a constant, balanced and logical contributor to this thread.
Until he called the EU a dictatorship.
"voters have turned away from the 2 main parties because they have failed to deliver on Brexit"
Hello. Is anybody listening? People have turned away from the 2 main parties because they have failed to consider a rethink over the whole Brexit debacle. What will it take for the blinkers to come off.
The commentary and responses in line of 'get brexit done' makes my blood boil. total arrogance and assumpiton everyone is too stupid to see past their crap. Even the academic poll statician was at it.
This is a verdict on the competence of Westminster's biggest parties - on the mess of handling Brexit.
Yeah, hello Laura.
Hello. Is anybody listening? People have turned away from the 2 main parties because they have failed to consider a rethink over the whole Brexit debacle.
That is one guess. The other guess i that they just want it done. No telling which guess is right or if a bit of both. Some have turned away (the remainers) while others haven't (the leavers). Same old split and associated mess.
There's a Conservative-Labour Brexit enabling stitch up coming in the next week.
I would say it is a dead cert.
I'll welcome you back any time, Dazh. I've deleted a number first draft posts in reply to you and stuck to playing the ball rather than the man. You seem to have taken my "A" in the good-humoured spirit it was intended.
When you're outside of group think you have to expect some flack, it's just a result of flying a raid over heavily defended territory. If people get personal don't take it personally, you're getting stick for a train of thought which whilst personal and unique to you is also representative of a wider train of thought, and it's irritation and annoyance with that wider train of thought people are expressing.
Question the fundaments of people's belief systems and when they fail to silence you by fair means their instinct (which can be resisted) is to go to foul. On political threads I usually manage to self-sensor to some degree, on petrohead threads, less so. I had some thought provoking and amusing quotes from Nietzsche in reply to some of your posts but deleted them before hitiing submit as I didn't want to join the gang against you. With hindsight I should have left them in the hope you'd see the humour rather than just posting the cold factual counter argument.
That is one guess. The other guess i that they just want it done. No telling which guess is right or if a bit of both.
Totally appreciate that I'm looking at this as an ardent remainer, but really struggling to see how it can be seen as a "let's get Brexit done" message.
Well, we know how to stop "guessing"… the two main parties cook up a deal together they think the majority will back over keeping EU membership… and then they ask us in a referendum.
No telling which guess is right or if a bit of both
It will be a mix of both, but the swing to LD & Green who are both anti-brexit would suggest that the 'just get it done' lot are not the major reason for the reduction in Red/Blue wins. It will be interesting to see the actual counts - has the Red/Blue vote colapsed or are there more 'others' coming out to vote this time
Mogg now has a LibDem councillor. I suspect that he’ll now be one of many MPs now considering a snap General Election a very dangerous thing (for themselves).
Turns out that it's not just Mogg's own ward that flipped to LibDem in his area…
https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/1124226356554928129?s=21
we are doing well where we are facing the Tories, thanks to their vote collapsing, but badly in the Remain wards against Lib Dem’s & Greens, losing a seat to the Greens for the first time, because of our ambivalent national position on #Brexit & a #PeoplesVote
This was the first Electoral test of our policy of “constructive” ambiguity on Tory #brexitshambles. It showed that when you cower in the middle of the road on the biggest existential crisis facing Britain for generations you get squashed. #FinalSay #PeoplesVote
My Labour MP on twitter. Some of them get it.
and then they ask us in a referendum.
The one thing we can be absolutely certain of is that whatever they're presently cooking up certainly won't be put to a referendum. Not a chance!
Labour is definitely upping the 'this is a vote to get on with Brexit' narrative today. Which means Mays deal with some non-committal blather attached about remaining in a form of customs union and workers rights will be whipped though the commons next week.
I agree with you Binners. Weirdly. And sadly. You've called it much more accurately than any of us so far, even if you do do it in a way that winds people up!
Newsthump are on the money today, though it applies equally to the Labour party as the Tories
This for context from Labour:
“Ian Lavery, the Labour party chairman, told BBC News this morning that the Labour leader of Sunderland council was blaming the party’s support for the option of a second referendum as the reason for it losing nine seats on the council. “People want to see Brexit over and done with,” said Lavery, who is one of the shadow cabinet members most hostile to a second referendum.”
I despair, I truly do. It makes me wonder how far up ones own arse you have to have your head to come to this conclusion? Some kind of contortionist with a side line in proctology???
Sorry that dazh is leaving thread, but his EU dictatorship comment was unqualified & foolish.
I think a lot of people who've been defending Labour & their Brexit Stance are having to face a plateful of humble pie for breakfast,what's Owen Jones said? so flounces aplenty
Obviously the likes of 'Bailout Barry' Gardiner & Ian Lavery refusing to let anything derail their dream Brexit
The one thing we can be absolutely certain of is that whatever they’re presently cooking up certainly won’t be put to a referendum. Not a chance!
Word.
The Tories won't even use the word and Labour, whilst talking about a confirmatory vote, are vague about (and we know what that means) whether it will even have Remain as an option.
I'm looking forward to the EU elections, we didn't get local elections here, but we've had our cards for the EU election.
I think a lot of people who’ve been defending Labour & their Brexit Stance are having to face a plateful of humble pie for breakfast
Not me. I would expect a lot of remainers to move their votes from Tory or Labour and I would also expect a lot of leavers to continue voting for Labour and Tory. Both parties were bound to lose votes. The fact the tories have lost a lot more than Labour is the telling thing here though.
Still think Labour's Brexit stance is fine if Brexit is to happen. Nobody knows what the result would be if Labour were a 100% a second ref party unless we rerun the vote. Everybody is just making it up and guessing.
Keeley , Preliminary analysis by John curtice & others says that labours stance is hurting them.
The Tories fired their defence sec for leaking secrets the day b4 this election (46th minister list in 2 years!!!)
Labour should be wiping the floor with Tories right now.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1124270222184275970?s=19
Countdown to next weeks Brexit stitch-up...
https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellmp/status/1124210656146862080?s=21
Still think Labour’s Brexit stance is fine if Brexit is to happen
Barnier has reuled out Labour's Brexit stance so it's a pure piece of fiction. As is often the case the foreign press has a better grip on what's possible than British politicians.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/01/world/europe/customs-union-brexit.html
Edit: Yhre link doesn't work, it's and article in the NYTimes headlined: A Customs Union for Britain: How One Brexit Idea Might Work
That bigger loss in Sunderland (and subsequent lib dem gain) is interesting, that was a pro brexit area. Wonder if they fancy a second referendum?
The Sunderland vote is a little misleading. There's been a real uproar there about the Labour councillors and some, lets say, strange spending habits - costs of new Civic Centre, expenses claims etc. so whilst there could be some noise about Brexit I susppect its more a local issue.
I susppect its more a local issue.
Yup, a great big car plant owned by Renault (who have competing factories all over the place) and Nissan (who under the new EU trade deal can import direct from Japan).