Forum menu
That is perfectly clear and is the labour policy AT THE TIME OF THE ELECTION
Someone lost the keys to the website computer?
It's just cognitive dissonance on the part of many people glad that Labour has moved towards the left, but can see the damage Brexit will cause those that the left should be speaking out for.
until the end of the year although there are tories pushing for the rules to be changed so they can redo a internal party no confidence vote earlier (in some cases the same MPs who have said that the referendum is final and no second vote. That they not only want a second vote but to change the rules to make it earlier doesnt seem to have struck them as hypocritical). Also Labour could go for no confidence vote and tory MPs could back it/abstain to get her out.
Ah, there's always that option I guess. Cheers.
So Tory MPs now dont like the result of the vote they had and now want to change rules to have another go.
Oh. The. Ironing.
Let’s simultaneously defend Corbyn for his stated aims (and whipping of MPs) to get the UK out of the EU, out of the Single Market, out of the Customs Union, to end FoM… AND claim that he in no way wants Brexit to happen.
Well, the thing about politics is that you have to do what voters want, because that's how you get elected. So it's less about what Corbyn wants than what will work politically. Hence the fence-sitting. Which is of course why we have a remain voting PM pushing for Brexit.
Why would any Remain-inclined voter vote for Labour when their policy is so muddied and unclear?
Because there's much more to politics than Brexit, obviously.
One thing is for certain. Absolutely anything could happen in these EU elections.
Can't argue with that for a change 🙂
Why would any Remain-inclined voter vote for Labour when their policy is so muddied and unclear?
Because there’s much more to politics than Brexit, obviously
Yeah, but this Euro election seems to be regarded as a pseudo referendum. I'm not sure how much other policies will really be considered.
It certainly would be an interesting push on labour if they continue to try to sit on the fence and anti brexit parties make gains at their expense. I don't see that really happening tho ( apart from the SNP who will make gains) but the english anti brexit parties are ei8thyer badly damaged ( lib dems) or closet tories - the tiggers. I don't see labour voters voting for them in big numbers
I do not agree with the labour policy, I haven't voted labour in a decade. I just get fed up of folk on here completely misrepresenting them.
Labour policy is muddied and muddled.
However it is not "hard brexit at all costs" Its about minimising damage and electoral posiutiuoning
Well, the thing about politics is that you have to do what voters want, because that’s how you get elected.
It isn't what labour voters want, and any form of brexit damages the poorest and implements racism as a policy. Those are totally against labour values.
Besides, the referendum was totally corrupt from head to toe, even yesterday the information commissioner was asking parliament why they had ignored the recommendations about implementing rules that dealt with some of the clear interference.
BBC.COM Knowing that and still implementing it is like finding out your parents were being 419 scammed but telling them they must send the money to Nigeria because they have already agreed to. It is ****ing insane.
However it is not “hard brexit at all costs” Its about minimising damage and electoral posiutiuoning
It should be about protecting jobs and defending worker's rights from any future Tory government .
I have been in contact with both my CLP and the Labour Party membership team to fully explain my reasoning for quitting the party and to categorically state that I cannot be a member, canvass on their behalf or vote for them if they continue to ignore the 80% odd of members who voted Remain.
Until things change, I will regard the Labour Party in exactly the same way as I do the conservatives, UKIP and whatever party currently fronted by Farage.
Until things change, I will regard the Labour Party in exactly the same way as I do the conservatives, UKIP and whatever party currently fronted by Farage.
That's exactly how I feel. Voted labour all my life but there's no way I can vote for a party that supports Brexit - even a fantasy red one.
Brexit is a right-wing project, always has been, always will be. And it will damage the very people Labour claim to represent the hardest, as the rich profit yet further from the increased inequality it will fuel. And as barely needs pointing out; it's inherently racist and stokes up nationalism, so should be abhorrent to anyone claiming to be socially liberal
but the English anti Brexit parties are either badly damaged ( lib dems) or closet tories – the tiggers. I don’t see labour voters voting for them in big numbers
I think both you and your namesake might be in for a bit of a surprise there Uncle Jezza
In the big cities, who are liberal and overwhelmingly aren't anti-immigrant, the anti-Brexit vote will eat into both Tory and Labour pro-Brexit stances
It isn’t what labour voters want, and any form of brexit damages the poorest and implements racism as a policy.
I think those are highly contentious statements.
They're not even remotely contentious. They're self-evident.
We're not saying everyone who voted for Brexit is racist, but every single racist voted for Brexit. For obvious reasons. It's isolationist and backward-gazing and entrenches divisions in society, and suspicion of 'outsiders' who its narrative blames for everything.
And every single economic study shows the results of any Brexit will be decreased incomes and rising living costs, so it absolutely will hit the poorest hardest
I don't see how anyone who classes themselves as socially liberal or internationalist can support any form of Brexit
which bit of them?
"the Labour position is for a better Brexit"
John Healey, Today programme, 24th April 2019
"We have committed ourselves to trying to deliver the referendum result... Labour is not a remain party now... "
Barry Gardiner, Today programme, 27th March 2019
Isn't there another thread running for whining about an ineffectual party that's not actually in power? It's all getting a bit tedious now TBH.
I think the "debate" about whether voting for Labour in the European Elections will be used as support for a "pro" or "anti" Brexit position is key to this thread. And it clearly isn't clear cut, so disagreement and discussion is very likely, even if perhaps repetitive and boring for most people. With the party leadership currently in discussion with the government about delivering Brexit, it's pretty relevant and topical as well. Talking about anything surrounding Brexit will become more and more "boring" over time… but that's because it is a long slow difficult process, not something that happened one day in June 2016.
Kelvin - I fully agree. Tedious but completely relevant.
Jeremy is trying to get his version of Brexit integrated into Theresa's WA. Whilst the majority of Labour voters don't want any Brexit, Jeremy's (or is it Seumas Milne's) version of Brexit is being offered to the UK Gov. And who voted for that?
Its not really clear if for the few hundred thousand people who actually make the difference whether a brexit labour or a remain labour does better.
Certainly a lot of labour MPs are very worried that any move to remain will lose them votes
Anyway, back to the right wing....
UKIP members worried as Rape and Racism platform fails to win over Middle England voters
Jeremy is trying to get his version of Brexit integrated into Theresa’s WA. Whilst the majority of Labour voters don’t want any Brexit, Jeremy’s (or is it Seumas Milne’s) version of Brexit is being offered to the UK Gov. And who voted for that?
They'll orchestrate a stitch up before the deadline for EU elections to get Brexit over the line. Serves both their interests best and **** the country!
Anyway, back to the right wing….
They are fools arent they? Should have realised the funny tinge party were going to triangulate them on that. How many candidates have they lost so far?
Serves both their interests best and **** the country!
Actually that is debatable but I will bow down to your great political knowledge.
They’ll orchestrate a stitch up before the deadline for EU elections to get Brexit over the line. Serves both their interests best and **** the country!
Dunno whare yo get this fantasy from. There is no chance of any deal between labour and the tories. I'll bet my house on that. they are far too far apart
They’re not even remotely contentious. They’re self-evident.
I could contend them, therefore they are contentious 🙂
Hearing the line "80% of voters voted for parties that want to implement Brexit" trotted out endlessly by brexiteers, makes me very wary of voting for labour.
I was told 84% last time. And that I'm a danger to democracy itself, because I supported something proposed by the deputy leader of the party they were a member of, and I had voted for.
You’re just being contrary Molls! 😉
I think Labour will see how local elections play out next week before deciding how to jump (or not) for Euros. Brexit obvs not direct Local Election issue but they are a useful test of dissatisfaction with Labour and politics generally.
I see the six extra months are being put to good use (not).
Labour and the Conservatives got you into this mess. Vote for someone else if you want to get out of it and don't want your part of the responsibilty for it all. Not that you'l have the chance to vote so I go back to my suggestion of nearly three years ago. Stop spending on anything but essentials, boycott anything or anybody connected to Brexit and get out on the streets.
I was told 84% last time. And that I’m a danger to democracy itself,
Who is telling you that?
No one you know. If you haven't heard the "we can't have another referendum 'till we enacted the last one… to do so would endanger our democracy" line from anyone, then you're lucky. If you haven't seen the attacks on Watson (and others) for calling for a referendum on any Brexit, then you're lucky. If you haven't had to listen to the "80%+ of voters voted for parties committed to leaving the EU, Single Market, Customs Unions and to ending FoM", then you're lucky.
Anyway, some loud mouths are coming around…
Leave the talks. Fight for a Second referendum. Wipe the floor with the Libdems/CUK. Forget Lexit. Sounds like a plan...
— Paul Mason (@paulmasonnews) April 24, 2019
T.CO Serves both their interests best and **** the country!
FFS I see we’re back to remain fantasyland. Let me reiterate a point I’ve made repeatedly. Any serious political party wanting to govern the UK must respect the referendum result. Deny it all you want but the simple reality is that any party that refuses to do this will not be elected to government. By all means vote for a party other than labour, but do so in the knowledge that you’ll be helping the tories stay in power.
Let me reiterate a point I’ve made repeatedly. Any serious political party wanting to govern the UK must respect the referendum result. Deny it all you want but the simple reality is that any party that refuses to do this will not be elected to government.
You can reiterate it until you're blue in the face, but it's an argument that's fundamentally flawed.
The referendum was non-binding and advisory, and whilst a small majority of those voting in the referendum voted to leave, 17m is not a majority of the British public by any metric. It happened nearly three years ago, and simply assuming nobody has changed their mind in the presence of a wealth of new information, the shifting demographic of voters (i.e. death of those >70 who voted overwhelmingly to leave vs teenagers who would have voted overwhelmingly to remain becoming eligible to vote) would mean that if it was re-run today the result would be reversed.
If you bring into consideration the fact that people have also changed their mind, the majority erring towards remain, and a re-run of the referendum would most likely see the result reversed, possibly by a large margin. Die-hard brexiteers know this, which is why they are so opposed to the idea.
So, in the absence of a second referendum, we have the imperfect metrics of the local and then European elections with which to judge brexit sentiment. Neither will provide a conclusive result, as in many cases just as with the first referendum itself, they will be treated as an opportunity to protest against the establishment.
Where to from here? **** knows. We can carry on down the route of huge political, economic and social self-harm and try to get the least-worst brexit that will be any metric see the UK seriously diminished. Or, we can head down a route that will cause significant short-term political and social harm, possibly via a second referendum, and try to explain why brexit simply is not worth it. The trouble with the latter is that even if Westminster politicians were up-front in explaining why they had lied for the past 40 years in blaming the EU for domestic problems, the people who need to listen to that information the most are those who are least likely to do so. The trouble with the former is that once we leave and the EU bogeyman can't be blamed any more, the problems will still remain, and will be compounded by the significant self-harm that brexit will bring.
[u]
Back to your final point, which is also fundamentally flawed:[/u]
1) At the local elections, a vote for the largest party for that ward that isn't the the Tories stands the best chance of keeping the Tories out. This probably won't be Labour in quite a lot of cases.
2) At the Euro elections it's proportional representation, so a vote for any party that isn't the Tories reduces their vote.
3) Neither of those elections have any bearing on their power in Westminster
Any serious political party wanting to govern the UK must respect the referendum result.
More than half the population now disagree with you. It's all a bit "must support the troops" in the Iraq invasion, and now Blair is now amongst the most discredited people in the UK with abut as much chance of being elected as me being made a mod on STW.
but it’s an argument that’s fundamentally flawed.
It really isn’t. I agree with all your points about how the 2016 referendum isn’t now valid. But the crux of the argument is that not enough brexit voters in marginal seats for either the tories or labour have changed their minds enough to enable either to win an election on a position of ignoring the referendum result.
Expecting labour to do otherwise is, to use a topical phrase, extreme unicorn thinking. The most we can expect is for them to support a confirmatory vote but right now even that is contentious. So more time is required to allow the sands to shift in both the public and parliament.
The referendum was non-binding and advisory, and whilst a small majority of those voting in the referendum voted to leave, 17m is not a majority of the British public by any metric.
How 'was' it not a majority by the definition of the vote's outcome?
Would you have been saying that if it had been the other way around?
And irrespective, Parliament has enacted the result (badly).
More than half the population now disagree with you.
Which 5000 people have been surveyed now?
You have noticed polls do change daily and don't ways reflect actual voting. So do us a favour and stop passing stuff like this off as fact.
But the crux of the argument is that not enough brexit voters in marginal seats for either the tories or labour have changed their minds enough to enable either to win an election on a position of ignoring the referendum result.
If you're sure about that get down the betting shop. I'm not, like the Iraq war, the public are slowly realising they were duped and Brexit was the wrong decsion:
WHATUKTHINKS.ORG Edit: when the facts are uncomfortable ignore them eh, Rone... .
But the crux of the argument is that not enough brexit voters in marginal seats for either the tories or labour have changed their minds enough to enable either to win an election on a position of ignoring the referendum result.
I disagree. There is a hardcore on both sides, yes. But for the vast majority of people, brexit is three year old news that they'd rather just went away so the country can move on. Fundamentally, the UK will be better off on just about any metric aside from wealth generation for the top 0.1% by choosing to remain, so as a consequence, any party that campaigns a GE on a platform of a second referendum and more agreeable domestic policies will likely win over one that vows to commit to the first referendum result come what may but has less well-received domestic policies, whichever side of the left/right divide they fall. The qualifier to that argument i guess is that if Brexit is enacted, a government's ability to do much beyond being told what to do by just about any other state we wish to trade with is probably pretty limited.
any party that campaigns a GE on a platform of a second referendum and more agreeable domestic policies will likely win over one that vows to commit to the first referendum result come what may but has less well-received domestic policies,
You are flattering the average voter. They don't tend to look as far as the actual policies.
Go and talk to some and find out.
How ‘was’ it not a majority by the definition of the vote’s outcome?
I'm not defining it by the vote's outcome. There are about 65m people in the UK, only 17.2m voted leave. That's not a majority. But, if you define it by the vote's outcome alone, as I explained above if you re-ran that vote today and nobody had changed their mind, enough brexit voting oldies will have been replaced by remain voting 18 and 19 year olds to change the outcome.
Would you have been saying that if it had been the other way around?
Farage was
And irrespective, Parliament has enacted the result (badly).
On the one hand, in agreement with you it has I guess. Which means it's not at all undemocratic to ask the question again (the counterpoint to the "we must enact it before we can ask again" trope). On the other hand, all parliament has done is largely abdicate its responsibility to serve in the best interests of the UK's population for the last three years.
Which 5000 people have been surveyed now?
You have noticed polls do change daily and don’t ways reflect actual voting.
Most reputable polls will give a statistical margin of error. Interpreting trends as opposed to point-in-time results leads to a pretty sound conclusion that sentiment has turned against brexit. Interpreting these data, particularly over the past 6 months since we got to the pointy end show a preference for remain.
So do us a favour and stop passing stuff like this off as fact.
#irony
You are flattering the average voter. They don’t tend to look as far as the actual policies.
So by extension, their policy on brexit should matter little
So who to vote for in the EU elections? (I'm a labour party member ffs.) Who's the anti-Farrage?
I’m not defining it by the vote’s outcome. There are about 65m people in the UK, only 17.2m voted leave. That’s not a majority. But, if you define it by the vote’s outcome alone, as I explained above if you re-ran that vote today and nobody had changed their mind, enough brexit voting oldies will have been replaced by remain voting 18 and 19 year olds to change the outcome.
It doesn't matter what benchmark you use, or think may happen.
Tiring. Get a time machine.
Most reputable polls will give a statistical margin of error. Interpreting trends as opposed to point-in-time results leads to a pretty sound conclusion that sentiment has turned against brexit. Interpreting these data, particularly over the past 6 months since we got to the pointy end show a preference for remain.
More than half the population now disagree with you.
I'm not debating how good a poll might be I'm debating the fact that someone specifically said something that is not true because we haven't voted again yet.
No need for irony, as you're buckling under logic.