FFS
Have you had your fingers in your ears? Listen to Labour's shadow front bench and official spokespeople.
I linked to the words of one of them, direct from them, no editing, no dodgy MSM bias, just their words… what more do you want?
Labour’s preferred option is our proposed Brexit deal.
Red unicorns comrade?
And on voting intentions..
https://twitter.com/OwenWntr/status/1112367573902020610?s=19
So those LibDem votes might not be such a waste.
Listen to Labour’s shadow front bench and official spokespeople.
Cool lets listen to them.
Shadow front bench. Well its a tad confused. People are suggesting different things. Its worth noting some of those saying that no referendum were saying that before the vote last week where they were whipped for it. As such I would go with discounting them.
They are currently whipping for both their preferred approach and also a referendum.
The official spokespeople are currently saying it hasnt been decided for an election.
Well, that's that cleared up then. Thanks. Labour Party spokespeople are not to be trusted, therefore those saying they can not be trusted are, er… come on, help me here… this is your line of thought, not mine…
So those LibDem votes might not be such a waste.
Depends what constituency you live in. Tactical voting will be key if the Tories are dumb enough to call another election.
Key variable for me would be the impact of UKIP 'betrayal' voting in Labour vs Tory marginals, given that Labour MPs are more likely to be anti hard Brexit.
this is your line of thought, not mine…
No its not. Stop making shit up.
Which Labour spokespeople and front benchers should we be listening to then @dissonance?
Tom Watson seems to be on the ball about what Labour policy "should" be. Should I just ignore all the others telling us that Labour policy "is" to get a Labour Brexit without a referendum?
given that the libdems are going to get a new leader, they need to crack on with this in a very short space of time (although from what I remember of LD party rules, it's a right load of bureaucratic mess) and put a manifesto together. If they have a very clear statement on remain and how political reform looks like they could be a kingmaker for the next government and actually get those things - those numbers look like LD or whoever propping up a minority govt.
ChangeUK probably would do the same, be interesting to see how far apart their manifestos are
Labour policy is very clear and as stated above by scotroutes. It might not be what you want but its clear, plausible and possible
trouble with social media is much of it is an echo chamber so you only hear what other folk of similar views to you say thus reinforcing bias
Labours problem is the party is as split as the tories. 30 mps voted against a second referendum despite being whipped to vote for it.
just read that the government are going to have a big healing party ( no shit they actually wrote that) so we can all have a hug and make up our divided country
call me shallow but they’re going to have to supply the booze
It's getting very difficult to tell but I think that's an April fools.
clear, plausible and possible
We don't know that's the case as we've not heard which colour of unicorns the EU prefers or even if they would allow a delay required for (a) a GE and then (b) negotiations with a Labour government.
It might not be what you want but its clear, plausible and possible
It is none of those things. Mostly it isn't possible. Corbyns renegotiated/red unicorns Brexit proposals are as fantastical as anything Boris Johnson promised during the referendum campaign (as we've been over many, many times), and would land us in exactly the same place as we are now, when Brussels says 'Non!' after about 2 minutes.
The whole will we/won't we? 2nd referendum thing is just totally dishonest and disingenuous as Jezza is clearly adamant that under no circumstances are the public getting another crack at this. He wants Brexit but doesn't want his fingerprints on it
Hence the main policy being to sit back and let them get on with it, while occasionally popping up to call for a general election. He's not even bothered to do that lately. It is a busy time of year on the allotment though, so understandable
as Jezza is clearly adamant that under no circumstances are the public getting another crack at this.
Odd I could have sworn Labour is whipping for second referendum amendments.
Must be some confusion.
Jezza is clearly adamant that under no circumstances are the public getting another crack at this.
Its a weird world where a view that is expressed frequently is seen to be the opposite.
Hate Corbyn by all means. Stop inventing nonsense about him
Its what the referendum question is though. That keeps changing too. At the moment the proposed option is on Mays deal or Jezza's fantasy red unicorn deal. Remain is not an option.
We're being played for fools again
So we are clear; Is Labour policy a GE, then their Brexit with no Referendum?
Or is it a for a Referendum - and with what options?
Remain is not an option.
What special source are you getting your info from?
So we are clear
GE was preferred option although think that has been abandoned for now.
Currently it is whipping for both soft brexit options as well as a second referendum.
https://www.cer.eu/insights/cost-brexit-june-2018
Ooh look, astonishingly, we don't have a spare £350 million a week. It's actually costing us £500 million a week. If only there had been some experts to predict these things rather than a Michael Gove.
Remain is not an option.
I honestly believe that if we can faff around long enough it will become an option. It's already getting that way now. The nutters will become more marginalised and the remainers will start to look more and more reasonable (except binners 😉 )
GE was preferred option although think that has been abandoned for now.
Currently it is whipping for both soft brexit options as well as a second referendum.
Hence why indicative voting is a good idea, it allows us to explore the options without doing it in a knock out format.
Currently it is whipping for both soft brexit options as well as a second referendum
But the latter only if we don't get Labour's preferred Brexit - the one we don't know will be deliverable and which could only take place after another round of negotiations?
Currently it is whipping for both soft brexit options as well as a second referendum.
Whipping was not for a soft Brexit, it was for an undefined Customs Union, but not for Single Market, or EEA, or The Customs Union or anything like that. And, referendum proposal is only for "this parliament"… if we get a general election before we Leave, Labour policy is that their Brexit plans WILL NOT be subject to a referendum. Watson is at the front of trying to get that last bit changed, and the barrage of abuse that the Corbyn faithful are giving him on social media is a depressing eye opener.
suppose they have to debate a50
even though everyone has said revoking it is not an option
waste of time?
But the latter only if we don’t get Labour’s preferred Brexit
It would depend on which amendments get passed but currently they are supporting both.
Labour policy is that their Brexit plans WILL NOT be subject to a referendum
The spokesbod position yesterday was that it hadnt been decided.
Your selective reading and listening is quite remarkable.
I dont think we can pretend that Labour are much less divided than the Tories, at least if you listen to their media interviews
Barry Gardiner & Kier Starmer seem to contradict each other at every opportunity
Odd I could have sworn Labour is whipping for second referendum amendments.
Must be some confusion.
They're trying to play both sides, there's a lot of Leave supporting Labour voters, the ones on the left of the Party.
He will always go for a GE if he can, why not, the Tories are in tatters and last week (and last week only) Labour appeared to be in the lead on the polls.
I really doubt he'll get it though, I mean why would the Tories do that?
Offering the 'Labour' deal has no downsides, it shows Leavers on the left that they're trying to achieve Brexit, but it's seems very unlikely to happen, it won't have the backing in the house and even based on last weeks polls a GE would likely end in a Coalition (with who, who knows - Sinn Fein?)
Not even "we know what's best, not the public" Corbyn can ignore 2m in London, 6m online votes and the polls - so Ref2 appeals to Remainers.
It will likely emerge as the least worst option with IV2 today.
It would be interesting to know what form Corbyn would like though, because he's not been clear (if anyone thinks he has, please provide a source from him, not Tom Watson). Labour Deal v Tory Deal, Deal v No Deal or heaven forbid - Remain v Deal.
Your selective reading and listening is quite remarkable.
Whereas your ability to confuse what specific MPs say with actual policy is even more impressive.
I dont think we can pretend that Labour are much less divided than the Tories
Yup. Whilst no real organised equivalent to the ERG there are the obvious divisions. Why its never been as easy as some have tried claiming for the Labour party to go hard one way or the other.
Yup. Whilst no real organised equivalent to the ERG there are the obvious divisions. Why its never been as easy as some have tried claiming for the Labour party to go hard one way or the othe
I would suggest that Momentum would be the closest equivalent of a party within a party.
Whereas your ability to confuse what specific MPs say with actual policy is even more impressive.
Again… which Labour spokespeople and front benchers should I ignore when they are stating what the Labour position is? I'm not talking about "specific MPs" stating their own position as to what policy "should be", I'm taking about those who are on the front bench, or appointed as spokespeople, saying what Labour policy "is".
Labour spokespeople and front benchers should I ignore when they are stating what the Labour position is?
Go with the spokesperson or Corbyn. Now which spokesperson do you think is stating clearly, as of today, that for a GE a second referendum is off the table?
Now which spokesperson do you think is stating clearly, as of today, that for a GE a second referendum is off the table?
Do I have to google this or are you going to tell us all?
If there is a general election Labour, I think, are in for a bit of a shock when they call upon the party faithful. My neighbours have been members for over 40 years and have always helped deliver leaflets and knock on doors.
Not this time.
They are remainers and fairly left of centre but just couldn't / wouldn't defend Corbyn on the doorstep. We have a great local MP but its very hard to separate the two. It's all getting very 'the wrong lizard'.
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/162557-it-comes-from-a-very-ancient-democracy-you-see-you
SpokEUMsperASon
Well, if we're ignoring things said only yesterday as old news that should be ignored… then you have me stumped @dissonance. And if only Corbyn and his non-elected inner team can state what Labour policy "is", and all front benchers should be ignored when they say what it "is", then fair enough.
If you are a member, be sure to vocalise your support for Tom Watson's approach… he could win people back to voting Labour (including me) if he succeeds.
This democratisation of the Labour Party and giving a voice back to the membership has been a roaring success, hasn't it?
Whats our Brexit policy today then?
We don't know... somebody best go and ask Seamus
ask Seamus
You mean 'ask Len'.
I thought I would make a short film to summarise the past 3 years of UK politics. I hope you think I have captured the finer nuances of the situation..
This democratisation of the Labour Party and giving a voice back to the membership has been a roaring success, hasn’t it?
Yes it has, best policies they have had for a long time.
And, on the topic of Brexit? Members in control of policy there?
Anyway, Labour not whipping for a "Soft Brexit" option (Norway style) today because, "Freedom of movement must end". What do members think…?
We can come back to this "no referendum on a Labour Brexit" mess if/when a general election is called. Pretty irrelevant 'till then. We can probably agree on that.
I would suggest that Momentum would be the closest equivalent of a party within a party.
Nope.
ERG are actually are public funded and sit within the Conservative party, and are MPs.
I don't think Momentum is made up of MPs.
when Gemma Collins starts espousing opinion on brexit is in the paper...it might be time to abandon ship sorry folks