You know what, this whole mess is due to dickheads in the Conservative Party. Nine years of austerity, the UKIP entryism that is responsible for the deselections of One Nation Conservative MPs and the sneering bullshit from a few gobby charlatans have brought me to the conclusion that I'm perfectly happy to see the bastards lose as many seats as possible and to be consigned to the electoral doldrums for a generation.
Labour were still trailing behind the conservatives only a few days ago, wait until the next lot of YouGov data before rejoicing.
I'll just wait until the actual election thanks - when there are campaigns, policies fresh in the mind of voters etc,. and people are not solely going on the right wing presses view of events.
Johnathan Pie Brexit: What's the **** is going on? https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=-IL2XwSkFJQ
In UK elections in safe seats it doesn't matter how you vote. In marginal seats you have to vote for the party most likely to beat the party you hate most. So in the above example you have to hold your nose and vote labour
You have noticed that Labour have been whipping for second referendum
I've noticed they have said that if they get to form a government, they will push through Brexit and not hold a referendum.
and soft brexit havent you?
Well, the Single Market options were heavily defeated. I'd have to check, but I presume that meant Labour didn't whip for that at all. I do know they've whipped against it several times in the past few years. They are also still saying that FoM for workers has to stop, so Soft Brexit is not their agenda at all.
In UK elections in safe seats it doesn’t matter how you vote.
In safe seats, it's hard to change your MP. True.
As for voting in a way that does not get you the MP you want more generally … do you think that the time when UKIP was getting a big share of the vote, and splitting the vote in hundreds of constituencies, that still changed the course of this country, despite not electing MPs to parliament…? Voter share, and eroding the votes for MPs of the major parties, can shift the policy agenda of those parties drastically. If we have an election before we leave the EU, every vote for a party promising to deliver Brexit will help deliver Brexit. The last three years have shown us that.
In many seats that needs balancing against the issue that if you have a good MP, who also happens to not be toeing the party line on Brexit… we need them in Parliament… don't try and unseat them to change the mind of their party's leadership… that will be counter productive.
Not simple. Unfortunately.
To further confuse things… the chance of whoever you vote for changing party after the next election could well be bigger than ever before.
So not simple.
anti brexit candidate good, but it's a toughy when after the last election we're repeatedly told that 80% of voters voted for parties that pledged to respect the referendum.
No need to apologise though... Fined but 'Remain spent more' so that's ok then. Rules are for losers anyway.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47766407
Theoretically I’d love to vote Green but too many of their policies are not based on scientific evidence and they are against many of the necessary ideas and processes that will likely be required to get humanity through the next few years. Their hearts are in the right place but they still act like a one trick campaign group trying to appeal to a converted minority rather than a realistic party of government
Does that really matter. It's is extremely unlikely that there will be enough of a swing in voting for them to form a government of any kind so they don't need to be totally realistic. Ideas and principles are ok for now. Personally I vote for them because I feel it actually makes my vote count more. A few percent voting green makes the other parties consider green issues to minimise losing votes. Look how fear of losing voters to ukip has managed to steer the Tories.
No need to apologise though… Fined but ‘Remain spent more’ so that’s ok then. Rules are for losers anyway.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47766407/a >
"Our biggest problem was that we destroyed all our data and therefore some of the evidential basis people were asking for."
Hmmm.........
Don't you just hate it when you destroy the only thing that proved you did nothing at all wrong. I assume it was on the same bit of paper that implicated them in something far worse.
PhilO
Member
Here’s one for wider consideration: I’m currently unrepresented, after my long-serving MP died a few weeks ago. The by-election is this week. The constituency has AFAICT always been Labour apart from a single term with a Tory decades ago. I’m a natural Labour supporter, but like many here have been dismayed by JC’s lack of opposition to the current shower. The new labour candidate is anti-brexit.Last time round, I voted Labour inspite of their policy to ‘respect the referendum’ as the most important thing was to keep the Tories out. This time, I can’t see one MP either way making a difference in Westminster, so I’m pondering risking letting the Tory in by voting LD or Plaid Cymru, while Emailing the Labour candidate and the Party to explain why.
What does the panel think?
Keep the tories out.
Shackleton
Theoretically I’d love to vote Green but too many of their policies are not based on scientific evidence and they are against many of the necessary ideas and processes that will likely be required to get humanity through the next few years. Their hearts are in the right place but they still act like a one trick campaign group trying to appeal to a converted minority rather than a realistic party of government trying to get national support for a realistic program.
****
You believe that Tory or Labour policies are based on unbiased independent scientific studies and they are going to get humanity through the next few years?
I would like to know what these are.
Con/lab are not one trick ponys?
They sell an impossible dream of wealth and peace to a desperate majority while really delivering economic slavery built on a long term unsustainable model of continual growth.
Their programs realistic? No, they are absurd.
Keep the tories out
'80% of voters voted for a party that pledged to redirect the referendum result'
It'll be a two-party system as long as folk think they should only vote for one of the two parties. Taking the example of the SNP, it took years/decades before they became a realistic vote-winner in many seats. To get there, many folk voted for them knowing they'd lose but might put in a decent showing. That attracted more voters and eventually a tipping point is reached. We often castigate governments for not being able to past the next election but voters need to do likewise.
Labour still at it. Who can you trust?
https://twitter.com/spittingcat/status/1112406048122589186?s=21
Something from Tom Watson to balance that out…
I think Labour should embrace European elections just as we should welcome a General Election that might get rid of this broken government. If we go into either contest with a positive policy on Brexit and say any final deal must be put back to the people, I am confident Labour can win.
Make that Labour policy instead. Win people back. Including me.
From here:
https://www.tom-watson.com/how_we_get_the_healing_done
80% of voters voted for a party that pledged to redirect the referendum result’
Typo or not?
Must admit after this line being trotted out endlessly by hard brexiters makes me very uneasy about voting Labour again, even if I think/hope they might try and end the whole farce
Presumably PhilO lives in Newport West. I was reading about this by-election today. According to the Guardian, there is a pro-remain EU party campaigning hard and we'll (apparently well funded) and winning some people over. It would be fascinating if they emulated UKIP and took enough vote share to influence main party policy. Certainly could be an interesting result.
Molgrips - that will probably be the Renew party - candidate is a friend of mine, and is very passionate and extremely well educated and informed.
I fear that they're a bit "one-policy" over Brexit, but you make an excellent point about influencing main parties if they do well. I wish I'd suggested her when I replied above, now!
I see there was also a party called "democrats and veterans" very much the language of the American alt-right. Stinks to me of external influence in UK politics, nothing more than mouthpieces for bannons network. I hope the other parties point this fact out. These scum claim to be proud patriots but are really in thrall to foreign interests.
There really should be laws against it, but with so much of tory finances coming from non doms and similar dodgy sources, it is never going to be dealt with while they are in power.
The pro-Brexit Labour leadership (the word is used figuratively etc....) are playing us all for fools.
It worked last time when they were flirting with their deliberate ‘constructive ambiguity’, but to quote The Who: we won’t be fooled again
I’ve voted Labour all my life, but I can see that if they’d won the last election, we’d still be where we are now. I won’t vote for this shower. I don’t care if it’s a wasted vote. I’ll be voting for a pro EU Party because Brexit is the only game in town right now and absolutely everything else hinges on it
Magic Grandads policy, such as it is, is a fag paper off Mays, because he’s a rabid Brexiteer. Simple as that. He wants Brexit. Always has. Barry Gardiner gave it all away last week in one sentence he inadvertently blurted out...
“we are not a remain party”
No shit? We’d kind of noticed
Well your voters, membership and MP’s actually predominantly are. its just your leader and his cabal who aren’t
He’s as bad as May. Entirely complicit in this shambles. If we crash out with no deal I’m sure he’ll raise a glass of tomatoes juice. Job done!
If you look at any Labour pages on any social meedya you’ll see countless lifelong labour voters expressing the same sentiment in their disgust with Corbyn’s pro-Brexit, Tory-enabling stance.
Not that he cares. He’s got his No Deal Brexit in sight.
Any party that can articulate a pro-Eu stance will cause mayhem at GE. I wish the SNP were fielding candidates in Engerland. I’d vote for them Every time
I fear that they’re a bit “one-policy” over Brexit, but you make an excellent point about influencing main parties if they do well.
Yes, as per UKIP.
Any party that can articulate a pro-Eu stance will cause mayhem at GE. I wish the SNP were fielding candidates in Engerland. I’d vote for them Every time
Is that not the LD stance, right from the outset...?
Yep, I do hope the Lib Dems make a serious resurgence in the next election. I'd probably see Lab/Lib/SNP collation being the more sensible outcome from this
Yes, as per UKIP
Except somewhat more aligned with what I think is best for the country!
I'm in the massively fortunate position of being able to ride this out OK - but I'm really pissed off for those for whom it could make the difference between carrying on with a relatively difficult time of things, or complete financial ruin.
Not to mention that I have several friends who are EU nationals and still don't know what their future holds, despite contributing massively to this country for years (decades in at least two cases) and no longer feel particularly welcome here
It stinks.
Not that he cares. He’s got his No Deal Brexit in sight
Did you really just say that?
If you look at any Labour pages on any social meedya you’ll see countless lifelong labour voters expressing the same sentiment in their disgust with Corbyn’s pro-Brexit, Tory-enabling stance
And if you look on the same social media you will find every opinion going.
So , in order to save the ship from sinking we need a GE. Now .
Then we need a bootload of cash to set up our own political party of candidates called 'Revoke'
Revoke candidates only need to sing one song Vote for us, we will reverse out of this mess and bolster the economy and not give the odd billion pounds to the DUP
Even if revoke stood in say 500 seats it wouldn't cost much in real terms and they might win enough to get a majority in parliment
Then we can start sharpening the knives
EDIT : Ah crap. something not working with the forum software (again!)
Is that not the LD stance, right from the outset…?
You're wasting your breath, metaphorically speaking.
But yes.
But something something tuition fees.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-47768884
And not an April fool mash style article the gov whip lays into cabinet and others.
Also bbc 6 news seem to have got the memo that indicative vote were not all a failure
I can see the Lib Dems picking up a lot of the politically homeless now that the Labour leadership has stopped its will we/won't we 'creative ambiguity' nonsense and has last couple of weeks voiced where it really stands - resolutely pro-Brexit, with no intention whatsoever of doing anything to prevent it, ie: a second referendum
Mind you... it seems some people are as happy to believe in red unicorns, as blue ones, so maybe not?
Whichever way you look at it, if there was an election tomorrow, seeing as politically there's only one game in town, at least 48% of the population have no representation by the two main parties and are essentially politically disenfranchised and ignored.
Until the TIGgers get their act together, the Lib Dems it is then...
Liz Truss is presently n Radio 4 talking the usual fantastical unicorn-based nonsense, as if the last 3 years had never happened.
God help us!
Binners - its a real shame that you keep on with this canard. labour policy is not what you say it is.
Well its certainly not what they say it is. If they even know what that is
Its a combination of outright lies (2nd referendum - we'll have one, but not really) and unicorn-based fantasyland (we'll go back to the EU and they'll give us everything that they wouldn't give Theresa, because...erm... Jeremy)
If you're a remainer your choice between the two main parties is would you like your huge shit sandwich on brown or white bread?
just read that the government are going to have a big healing party ( no shit they actually wrote that) so we can all have a hug and make up our divided country
call me shallow but they're going to have to supply the booze
Binners – its a real shame that you keep on with this canard. labour policy is not what you say it is.
What is it?
It's whatever you want it to be. The secret is that you just have to BELIEVE!
Are you still ranting on about Corbyn? Just get over it and vote for the Independence group (better known as another Tory party whose only difference is that they are anti Brexit). Who cares what you vote.
Not the labour party, clearly...
So another round of indicative votes
Which will be different, Because MPs will just vote for something different this time????
Then a play off tomorrow between MV4 & whatever the winner is today?
Maybe a way forward will be found, but I'm not convinced, surely some sort of ranking system is needed to narrow things down?
With PR ukip would have picked up some seats .
What does the forum think the situation of the country would be now?
They would have had seats, but there would be more of other parties two, who would quite often have different opinions. lib Dems would in increase massively as there support is not clustered as required to win in the current situation but more a good solid level in large parts of the country.
labour policy is not what you say it is.
We're all waiting…
.
.
.
I'll help you…
Pro Brexit. No referendum if Labour gets the Brexit it wants.
(Obviously every Labour voter, member and councillor I know is dead against this policy… but, you know… Corbyn has made great strides in making the party more democratic, hasn't he).
Have you been reading sixth form social media pages binbins?
Or the words of Labour front benchers?
Anyway, at least Tom Watson is actively pushing for the policy his members want (see earlier post).
I’ll help you…
Kind of you to help out. now if you can source your claims that would be even more helpful.
Current policy is to whip for a second referendum, alongside other positions.
If it went to general election the policy hasnt been decided.