I dont think we can pretend that Labour are much less divided than the Tories
Really - take a look at this again …
https://twitter.com/MShepheard/status/1112671939615698944
Looks to me that the Tories are much more divided.
just to clarify - labour party policy as stated from their conference (which wanted a full-on referendum but weren't given the option to vote for this without a gen election bundled in) is for a general election and if it can't get that, a 2nd ref.
when this put to the HoC there was no chance of getting a gen election, they had a no-confidence motion fail - so the whips order labour to abstain against the policy they said they would be pushing for.
https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-second-referendum/
just proves my point that we need electoral reform because there's disconnection between party execs and party members (red and blue) as well as the disconnection between voters and parties.
A note of caution: Conservative party members are STRONGLY in favour of a no deal exit, and other things that most Tory MPs are against. The population as a whole has to be considered by politicians when setting policies, not just members. It's never simple, is it…
I'd agree though (if you are saying this) that it's time for more voices in parliament, in the form of fewer MPs for the main two parties… but LOTS has to change to support that. The two overly broad coalitions of the two big parties isn't working.
This democratisation of the Labour Party and giving a voice back to the membership has been a roaring success, hasn’t it?
Are you arguing for less democracy in the labour party? That would seem to be a very strange position for someone who claims to be a slightly left of centre social democrat.
He's arguing that the gap between the rhetoric and reality suggests a lack of (much lauded) integrity at the top.
Are you arguing for less democracy in the labour party?
Not at all. I'm advocating they just remove the little asterix at the end of every policy that says in 5 pt type at the bottom of the page *unless Jeremy disagrees with it
“Freedom of movement must end”.
When they mean;
Dogbone's freedom of movement must end. So yeah **** you.
Well, if we’re ignoring things said only yesterday as old news that should be ignored
From whom? Lets see the exact quote from the spokesbod. since the only one I can see is them being, deliberately, vague on it. Which whilst admittedly unhelpful doesnt support your claim.
and yes you should treat what individual MPs say as being their own opinion unless they are clear it is otherwise. Otherwise you would be getting rather confused when listening to Kate Hoey for example.
so the whips order labour to abstain against the policy they said they would be pushing for.
They abstained from that since, along with peoples vote lobby group and others, they thought it was the wrong time.
They have whipped for it last week when it was seen as the right time and will, almost certainly, whip for it again.
They are currently whipping for any brexit deal, including their own, should be voted on.
Well, if we’re ignoring things said only yesterday as old news that should be ignored
Its worse than that. Far worse. Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secratary, has just been on the World at One. After much questioning about what Labour were actually going to table or whip to support this afternoon, she said that as she'd not been in touch with the leaders office for an hour or so, she didn't actually have a clue. And what they suggested this morning might well have all changed by now
They are literally making it up, scrawled on the back of a fag packet, as they go along.
No rush though, eh? Plenty of time....
In other news, the Germans pointing out the bleedin' obvious...
UK 'silver spoon' cabinet will escape Brexit fallout, says German minister
UK politicians “born with silver spoons in their mouths, who went to private schools and elite universities” were responsible for the current impasse in parliament, but were unlikely to suffer the direct consequences of their actions, he said.
Just a pity 52% of the electorate couldn't see what was staring them in the face 2 years ago
so labour will be whipping for Norwayish common market 2.0*, & therefore presumably not 2nd ref
(*tho it still doesnt get round NI border problem?)
Just a pity 52% of the electorate couldn’t see what was staring them
52% of the electorate wouldn't notice a bus bearing down on them.
Charles I was all like:
Democracy is the power of equal votes for unequal mind
& therefore presumably not 2nd ref
It isnt clear but it doesnt rule them out supporting both. I suspect it will be the case since the stated plan is to avoid no deal or Mays option so best to keep all options open.
so labour will be whipping for Norwayish common market 2.0
But CM2.0 includes FoM?
But CM2.0 includes FoM?
Yes.
Yes
That can’t possibly be true. DannyH and his ilk have repeatedly told us that labour are a racist party which hates immigrants.
CM 2.0 doesnt fix the NI border though?
CM 2.0 doesnt fix the NI border though?
Apparently it would since thats the addon on top of the Norway model to allow that to work. Whether it will actually pass all the relevant parties is an different matter though.
And it doesn't seem to feature in what the EU says is acceptable...
(appreciate the whole "different red lines gets a different EU response thing... )
Edit: sorry, not really thinking - this is all about proposing new red lines, yes?
the daily fail website are going with "Anarchy in the UK" at the top of the page.
CM 2.0 doesnt fix the NI border though?
Yes it does. CM2.0 includes FoM but allows exceptions in unusual circumstances. It also exempts us from CAP and CFP. Seems to me a perfectly sensible and acceptable solution, and is the soft brexit we were all talking about straight after the referendum.
So can the usual suspects please now stop all talk of labour/Corbyn/whoever else being hard brexiters who support the ERG? Some of us said all along that labour would back a soft brexit solution, but it would take time and patience to get there due to obvious political issues they have had to deal with. Seems to me that's exactly what is now happening.
All well and good, however Norway won't let us in to the agreement that they have with the rest of the Union, and Norway still requires border controls for goods. It's not a solution, as it's not agreed with the EU, and if it were, it would be a shit one.
I assume we've asked Norway if we can join EFTA for CM 2.0 before we start putting forward all these 'alternative' plans - I distinctly remember them not being keen...
Will the gammons now be clamouring for a second referendum?
the daily fail website are going with “Anarchy in the UK” at the top of the page.
I know what I want, but don't know how to get it?
I don't see why we need to ask Norway . If the EU want to deal with us in the same way as them that's the EU's perogative.
so labour will be whipping for Norwayish common market 2.0
You go for a ride, and the position swaps 180%. If true, very welcome.
it would be a shit one
If you mean vastly inferior to our current position, then yes. If it's instead of the current WA, or the WA + a CU in PD, or no deal… it's better for most people than any of those. Still not was promised and voted for in 2016, so the argument for a referendum should be unchanged really.
presumably not 2nd ref
Why?
Why?
Given that CM2.0 is basically remain, I'm not sure the electorate would understand or accept a new referendum without a no deal option. What's the point in having an expensive and disruptive public vote on remain vs almost remain?
Given that CM2.0 is basically remain,
erm, it really, really isnt
Given that CM2.0 is basically remain,
Sigh - it is a form of Brexit. Once we have "one way of leaving" decided by parliament, why shouldn't the public decide whether they prefer it to keeping our current EU arrangements?
Sigh – it is a form of Brexit.
Of course it is, but it's the least damaging and disruptive form of it. If this is passed then people in the UK and Europe will see almost no change to their daily lives as a result of it. It's also the only option that preserves most of the status quo whilst still satisfying the referendum result. I know you don't think that's important but a huge number of people will disagree.
I can see why it is Brexit option that you prefer (so do I)… but why does that mean that everyone else shouldn't get a say over choosing it over EU membership? This whole "referendum on your Brexit option but not mine" smells so off. How does that win the trust of anyone?
If this is passed then people in the UK and Europe will see almost no change to their daily lives as a result of i
unless they live in NI....
How does that win the trust of anyone?
For the simple reason that it honours the original referendum result. Even then many, perhaps most, leavers still won't accept it, but it at least provides the opportunity to claim that the result has been enacted. A poorly turned out 2nd vote (as a result of a boycott by original leave voters) would do more damage than good I think by casting doubt on the outcome.
Nice to see the support of what Yanis Varoufakis said last week coming home to roost.
Basically do this; and then figure it out long-term. Without the clock ticking.
unless they live in NI….
It would help a lot in NI compared to other Brexit options. A sensible compromise that shouldn't have been whipped against in the past. I said years ago that putting SM+CU against EU membership to the people in a referendum would probably result in us leaving in that fashion… lots of Remain voters back then would have backed that.
For the simple reason that it honours the original referendum result.
Says who? I expect millions would argue that it does not. But anyway, the 2016 referendum has set policy for government, parliament, business and individuals for years now. Why does that preclude the country having a vote on the straight choice of one form of Brexit chosen by parliament against keeping what we have?
My MD was over from Belgium the other week, and couldn’t understand why our “educated politicians” were in favour of a Norway arrangement, as he said you still pay into Europe, you have FoM, but no say in what happens.
Joanna Cherry amendment to stop no deal… Labour whipping to abstain…
It would help a lot in NI compared to other Brexit options.
Cm 2.0 doesn't include a custom union tho, does it?
CM2 has got potential to be a very close one. Assuming SNP and those few (35ish) Tories go for it, it might just clinch.
Lots abstained last time...
) would do more damage than good I think by casting doubt on the outcome
doesn’t include a custom union
No, there is a seperate vote on that. Ken Clarke has just explained why they are not mutually exclusive, can be rolled in together if both get support, and is voting for both.
Get your lols ready…
https://twitter.com/samcoatestimes/status/1112746689960513539?s=21
Richard Drax happy to change his mind on the subject since Friday, yet is against the commoners having a change of mind 3 years later.
Are these people too stupid to see the hypocrisy in all this, or do they simply not care?
I’m not sure the electorate would understand or accept a new referendum without a no deal option.
So the electorate should only vote on things they understand? If only we'd established that three years ago.
I know you don’t think that’s important but a huge number of people will disagree.
So what?
Is UK politics really now reduced to "who can shout the loudest?" Does that sound like a representative democracy to you?
Moreover, does it sound like the sort of thing we should be giving in to? At the risk of playing a brexie card: isn't it exactly why we had two world wars, to quell the rise of fascism?
I'm getting increasingly tired of this "what people want" propaganda. It's long past high time that everyone who's been banging on about sovereignty since 2016 actually found out what it meant.
So what?
Because whatever happens at the end of this infernal process, people still have to live together. A soft brexit is a sensible and practical compromise which doesn't make things worse. Any other option will only divide people further. We need to move on and minimise the damage from this nightmare, and the CM2 option is IMO the best/only way to do that.