I will still vote Labour over any other party as there are much more important things to me than a Brexit that will most likely never happen and the only party that comes close to having policies that provide those important things (and more importantly could even win) is Labour
This. Corbyn IMO should have led a proper pro remain stance and convince the poor and disaffected that their woes are not the fault of the EU. They may lose some voters to the Tories but will brinng back many remainers disillusioned with them as a party.
Corbyn is party before pragmatism though, just like the Conservatives.. He's no leader, and if there was to be a general election and he won, he'd be in the same dire straits as the Conservatives are right now.
The only reason labour haven't collapsed like this
You need to do the maths and then you will see. How marginal are the Labour leave seats, could they switch to Tory just to leave and on the flip side how marginal are the remain Labour seats and could they switch to Lib Den or the dodgy independent group.
And here lies the problem. We are so scared of coalition government and learning how to make one work we make stupid choices.
For any marginal seat it's a complex calc over remainers who will vote away to avoid the blah blah endorse out entire manifesto and some who genuinely can't see how Corbyn can get out of this. Some leavers will go a bit tory or Ukip but most will just tick the red box again.
If you want to fight this one on leave/remain you have to be solid on it.
I thought the image of the Leave march confirmed that what we are up against is not just Brexit per se but the re-emergence of the far right into the mainstream of British politics. That march was as close to a 1970's NF meeting as you can get in the 21st century. Given that, there is no way Labour should be pandering to these people. There is more to this than Brexit & at the moment Corbyn is positioning himself as a friend to bigotry & intolerance. There is no way he should be doing that even if he thinks it will make his party more popular (& I don't even think it will). Fight for what is right, not for political gain.
Personally my tendencies veer towards LibDem but my constituency is currently Labour although it did go Tory briefly. Fortunately my MP is a committed remained although seemingly hamstrung by the party whip.
I still fail to understand how either party seems not to recognise the enormous harm that the last near 3 years has done economically and politically to the UK.
That gif ^^
Has anyone sent it to Number 10 yet?
at the moment Corbyn is positioning himself as a friend to bigotry & intolerance
FFS don't be so bloody stupid. This developing narrative that not calling for brexit to be cancelled is somehow de facto support for Tommy Robinson and his ilk is utterly ridiculous. Not only that, it's also completely counter-productive as you need to get these people to change their minds to achieve what you want.
Fortunately my MP is a committed remained although seemingly hamstrung by the party whip.
How exactly were they hamstrung?
FFS. Pro-Brexit (but Brexit is bad) apologists.
Anyway, it's fine if you want whatever the Withdrawal Agreement ends up as. It's fine if Corbyn wants it as well. We should all get a say though.
We should all get a say though
While I agree it's probably the best way to break the deadlock we've had a say twice now and managed to **** it up. Do you have faith we'll get it right next time?
If, by "right" you mean what I want and believe is best for the country, then no, I don't have complete faith.
But I do firmly believe that the people who voted for this bit of a mess should now be asked if they really think this is what they want.
Indeed. Very likely that the result of another referendum would be to accept this mess and carry on. That should be "our" choice though. Currently, we are being told this has to happen, in a certain manner, because "we" choose it, and that is… well… a "bit" disingenuous.
Haha! A "bit"?!!!! 😅
There will be no election, Torries were stung last time, fixed term parliament act is a powerful tool for sitting government.
That said the erg are so mental, who knows what they might do if they don't get their way!
Not only that, it’s also completely counter-productive as you need to get these people to change their minds to achieve what you want.
They won't be changing their mind, why should they ? every paper is screaming 'brexit betrayal' today
It was the same with Toby young etc on newsnight, Brexit being a disaster; s the fault of remainers.
No one will accept responsibility for this mess.
And we've still got a decade(s) of ever more divisive negotiations to go....
You need to do the maths and then you will see. How marginal are the Labour leave seats, could they switch to Tory just to leave and on the flip side how marginal are the remain Labour seats and could they switch to Lib Den or the dodgy independent group.
But they majority of labour voters in marginal labour seats are remain voters. So they are just as likely, if not more likely to lose the seat by doing that.
I think Corbyn has just realised that remain voters are happy to walk out on the labour party over this just as much as brexiteers are and is now panicking at Labours haemorrhaging ratings and is now whipping for policies that have more favour with remain.
It's all too little too late.
"The people voted for this."
We have heard this line used by people in the same party espousing entirely opposite viewpoints as regards the current withdrawal Agreement, and as regards a No Deal exit… and sometimes the same politician has used that argument to defend both voting for and against the current WA within a matter of days! People are using the last referendum to push their own agendas that are miles from what was "suggested" back in 2016, in a "not entirely" consistent manner. That alone should be enough for any politician that makes claims about "democracy" and "integrity" to come around to the idea of putting any manner of leaving, whether it is one proposed by their opponents or by themselves, to the people.
In addition, anyone suggesting that the plans of "others" need public approval but "our" plans do not, can't be trusted. They will find people both in favour of Brexit, and against it, will be turned away by that attitude.
A bit gutted at the no confidence vote in Dominic Grieve by his constituency association. Under the leadership of the Maybot, he is the nearest the Tories have to a humanoid form.
I did like a commentators description the other day of May as 'LINO'. On the surface standing for Leader In Name Only, but also hard to nail down but easy to walk over.
But they majority of labour voters in marginal labour seats are remain voters. So they are just as likely, if not more likely to lose the seat by doing that.
Are they, how do you know? Who will they be voting for in place of Labour who is remain. Lib Dems will have a candidate, Independence group probably won't.
I still can't see how Corbyn would be in a better position now if he had gone full remain, against the will of the people, traitor, anti democracy etc,. You do see the media and the impact of it don't you?
Saying that, if I was Labour leader I would have gone full remain and spun Leave as a Tory fantasy but it would be very risky and I may have screwed it all up.
I'm liking this new *shock* poll that puts Labour 5pts ahead.(delta poll)
Let's see what the newspapers, Binners and Rachel Riley drag up this time.
Are they, how do you know? Who will they be voting for in place of Labour who is remain. Lib Dems will have a candidate, Independence group probably won’t
There's too much - "we know exactly the outcome of that" in this thread.
I would say we are very much uncharted waters for pretty much everything.
Economy is on a precipice, and has been for a while but stills seems to avoid my expectations of a collapse.
I think Labour's GE policy would be - negotiate a different deal with customs unions etc and test in a 2nd referendum against remain.
It would lose some leave and remain voters - but the Tories will be losing voters too. The potential voter movements are so multi dimensional I think it's a difficult game for even the pollsters to claim any sort of accuracy of prediction
It still baffles me that the common veiw is that there are only 2 choices in a general election. Hopefully the last few weeks and growing awareness of bigger issues being faced by society will help to change that. It is time for a change in perspective
https://www.greenparty.org.uk/political-programme.html
Because with a first past the post system you are lucky to get the opportunity to vote for more than one party that has a realistic prospect of winning your constituency
Although I can see there being a bit of a resurgence for LDs and minor parties getting the odd seat. But as I said above, predictions are a bit of a mugs game
With PR ukip would have picked up some seats .
What does the forum think the situation of the country would be now?
all doom and gloom in the right wing sundies
If UKIP had mps then those mps would have to abide by parliamentary standards and UKIP policies and actions would be subject to closer scrutiny. Also, the present assumption is that many /some UKIP votes are protest votes. With pr there is no need for protest votes so apparent support for UKIP could actually reduce.
Also the big two parties are funded far more than any others, they get to dictate the narrative because of that. If both those parties run on a brexit ticket (even despite their membership views) then it is lie to pretend that the electorate has been given a choice on brexit.
The choice is distorted massively by campaign funding and supposed free choice becomes nothing but an illusionist's card trick .
Theoretically I'd love to vote Green but too many of their policies are not based on scientific evidence and they are against many of the necessary ideas and processes that will likely be required to get humanity through the next few years. Their hearts are in the right place but they still act like a one trick campaign group trying to appeal to a converted minority rather than a realistic party of government trying to get national support for a realistic program.
First time revoke & 2nd ref have led in polls, even if it is the mall
https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1112203648623407104?s=19
Depends what you mean by a hard border. Switzerland isn’t in the CU
From a couple of pages back, Switzerland is signatory to Schengen (2005 referendum won by 10%).
Here's one for wider consideration: I'm currently unrepresented, after my long-serving MP died a few weeks ago. The by-election is this week. The constituency has AFAICT always been Labour apart from a single term with a Tory decades ago. I'm a natural Labour supporter, but like many here have been dismayed by JC's lack of opposition to the current shower. The new labour candidate is anti-brexit.
Last time round, I voted Labour inspite of their policy to 'respect the referendum' as the most important thing was to keep the Tories out. This time, I can't see one MP either way making a difference in Westminster, so I'm pondering risking letting the Tory in by voting LD or Plaid Cymru, while Emailing the Labour candidate and the Party to explain why.
What does the panel think?
Would you prefer an anti Brexit labour MP to a Tory? If so, you know what to do, unless the pleasure of a bit of self indulgence outweighs that.
Not great i know, but hey...
Nice piece by Margaret Beckett in the Guardian today.
I thought her speech last week was very good. She was a leaver and now a remainer.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/31/margaret-beckett-brexit-public-vote-dangerous-theresa-may
Re above PhilO
Just vote Labour. Sometimes you have to compromise for the greater good - Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori and all that. Chin up.
Phil - If I was in your constituency (I'm actually in a neighbouring one) I'd be trying ascertain how likely it is that the new lab candidate would follow through when it comes to actions/votes etc. If I didn't think they were likely to really represent me, I think your proposals are sound...
6 million signatures.
PhilO don’t vote for Matthew Evans, he is pretty far right and hasn’t an original idea in his head.
So hands up everyone that still thinks Corbyn's Labour is unelectable?
Theoretically I’d love to vote Green but too many of their policies are not based on scientific evidence
But the people are sick of experts apparently. So on that basis the Greens should be a shoe in.
Oh and about UKIP and PR. Yes they would pick up seats but they would be swamped by the seats picked up by "moderates".
What does the panel think?
You have noticed that Labour have been whipping for second referendum and soft brexit havent you?
For the more drastic options eg revocation its gone for no comment as opposed to whipping against.
I would welcome UKiP getting some MP’s it would hilight that they have absolutely nothing in their locker, would expose them as the intellectual pygmies they are. It wouldn’t be like being an MEP, they would be humiliated.
Labour were still trailing behind the conservatives only a few days ago, wait until the next lot of YouGov data before rejoicing.