Started as a Leave but now undecided, the whole Euro thing is a disaster of financial management, rule application seems to only apply to certain countries, consensus amoung the huge number of member states seems impossible, Germany has created/exasperated the migrant situation, we are tied to EU trade deals, Stupid (IMO) EU Court Rulings (prisoner right to vote etc) BUT workers rights, 35hr week etc are good, safety standards of vehicles, free trade
Call me Dave has got very little from the recent summit so if we vote to say I can see us getting very little voice at any other negotiations. However a free reign Call Me Dave if we leave could be terrifying to the working class/squeezed Middle.
Is there anywhere that lists the for and against reasons without descending into argument?
Oh Farage boils my urine.......
@fin - we are the 5th richest country in the world, we only get back a fraction of what we put into the EU. We can fund our own projects. Also IF (and I have to agree with kimbers earlier post it is an IF) we take tough action to address tax avoidance embedded in the EU we'd have a few billion extra per anum on top for projects. BTW trail centres are paid in part by land owners for example npower in Wales. Did Lady Canning have EU money, I thought it was crowd funded by bods like me sending a donation. [i][/i]
But they wouldn't or couldn't be trusted to do so - ifs buts and maybes, to me in Wales the EU is that bit more independence from the Westminster gov't and something we benefit from as a certainty and as such I can't see any reason why I would want to vote to leave.
Dave made a major error in pretending the he was negotiating major change. Why? Because we already have a very good deal.
We already have opt outs on the €, Shengen and on many Issues of justice and home affairs. There isn't a lot more to call for. Hence the need to exaggerate red herrings such as child benefit.
We are in a really good position in relative and absolute terms.
We can fund our own projects.
So why don't we?
DrJ, Slovakians are on the hook for the loans, the money the Greeks have spent as I said. They guarantee them. Its just the same as we all in the UK as taxpayers are responsible for the money the Treasury borrows and the Government spends. Its smoke and mirrors to try and claim that the cash "comes from the markets" as if thats a magic pot of goodmwith nomcost or liability. Total Greek debt has spiralled by something like €100bn since the eurozone countries became the primary lender/financer - this is fresh money being spent on wages, benefits and pensions amongst other things.
Personally I think Dave's negotiations are a bit of a side show - Immigration is a tiny part of the Eu v Uk discussions at the mo, and that is all he seems to have had a little bit of movement on
As for Farage , what a dick, I loved the fact that he is going to ask people to claim for asylum in the last safe country before they came to us. So thats ok then, no-one will travel to us anymore cos Nige said so, and it will be in France's interest to keep them ....
Jamba, you wrote:
€ 2bn Slovakian taxpayers money, a relatively poor country, has been sent to Greece against the wishes of their government.
which was not true. This is why nobody can be bothered to debate with you. You say something, are shown to be in error, and then pretend that you said something entirely different. Boring.
fin25 - MemberNone of you outists gonna answer me then?
On the funding issue you mention in your last post?
Well you get that we are a net contributor, so we could continue funding and still have more money left over.
Win-win!
Of course there is no guarantee that this would happen, same as there is no guarantee that Europe isn't going to go further tits up if we stay in.
xxx
sbob.
Leaning to out, but being dragged back to in by fear.
🙂
That's kind of my point sbob. The out campaign can't offer any picture of a post exit UK, because no-one knows who will be in power. I might be tempted to vote out if there were certain guarantees regarding the replacement of EU institutions which actually benefit our citizens.
I'm with THM on this one. Using the Euro (which was always a ridiculous, unworkable concept) to then condemn the whole idea of the EU is just plain daft.
In fact it only reinforces the fact that in reality, we've the best of both worlds. We have the advantages of being in this huge free trading area, with all the economic and political benefits of that, but we do so without being shackled to the single currency. Sounds like a bit of a result to me, that.
And I haven't heard a single even remotely convincing argument as to why we'd want to dump that arrangement, and how on earth we'd be better off if we did
I might be tempted to vote out if there were certain guarantees regarding the replacement of EU institutions which actually benefit our citizens.
That would be nice, but we'll probably just get a load of wishy-washy nothingness from both sides, much like the Scottish indy campaigns.
Thread tl;dr but done this one yet?...
If we vote out, we lose the free market that the EU provides and consumer protections. This would mean if we want to buy from other parts of the EU, companies can attempt to block the attempt if that works out cheaper than buying in the UK. In the EU this is currently illegal for companies to do and we've enjoyed being able to buy cheaper from another EU state. On top of that of course we don't have to faff with VAT & duty, though we do still pay VAT but it's at the local rate of the state we buy from.
Out of the EU and it all becomes the same as trying to buy something from outside the EU. VAT & import duty will apply, corporates will enforce market protection to ensure we pay the highest prices.
I'm no fan of the EU, but these are advantages which are worth keeping in my opinion.
You say something, are shown to be in error, and then pretend that you said something entirely different. Boring.
Cough apple v FBI :lol:*
* Joke only not doing a cross thread thing nor bearing a grudge to be very very clear.
And I haven't heard a single even remotely convincing argument as to why we'd want to dump that arrangement, and how on earth we'd be better off if we did
Have you not been watching the news? We're on a path to that utopian pre-war society where we can call on our friends(?) in the empire to keep us in the means to which we're accustomed, where the royal navy rules the seas, everyone was white with a parochial english accent, bankers wear bowler hats, and those jack-booted germans and arrogant french will be put back in their place. What's not to like?
Gove want us to be more like America what with the guns, god fearing and Trump its a vision I dont have admire
If it wasn't for EU, 1000's of pensioners would have lost all their private pensions.
The EU overruled and found the U.K. guilty for lack of fail safes; who did nothing to help the pensioners and tried to cover it up. Pensioners got back around 90% of their savings.
They would have suffered and be broke if it wasn't for E.U. overruling the U.K.
In.
For civil rights, trade, jobs, travel and unity.
Migration needs to be better controlled and fair.
DrJ instead of bullying others at least visit Google and see who is exposed to risk due to Greece. That is ongoing.
They need to keep meeting their debt commitments. What happens when they can't? Keep on fudging it?
Do you want to be part of that?
To all the yes people supporting the MEP gravy train. Do you actually know how worse off we'll be if we leave?
yes, £500 million pa in Wales.
To all the yes people supporting the MEP gravy train. Do you actually know how worse off we'll be if we leave?
On leaving the UK will not have automatic trade agreements.
It will have to comply with all the same EU rules to trade with the EU but have no say.
The people who currently do the jobs a large amount of Brits feel too good to do will have to leave.
All those cheap bike bits from the EU will have Import Duty slapped on them.
Movement in the EU will become harder for British Nationals
Thats just for starters
which was not true. This is why nobody can be bothered to debate with you. You say something, are shown to be in error, and then pretend that you said something entirely different. Boring.
#Jambafact
That would be nice, but we'll probably just get a load of wishy-washy nothingness from both sides, much like the Scottish indy campaigns.
Or the referendum on voting reform. It's unlikely we'll be given any more than emotive soundbites.
DrJ instead of bullying others at least visit Google and see who is exposed to risk due to Greece
Have a look in your wallet. Well... maybe not yours. We all know you don't carry cash. But if you look at the currency, you'll notice that it isn't the euro
DrJ instead of bullying others at least visit Google and see who is exposed to risk due to Greece.
Hora - please read what I wrote. Not one penny of Slovak tax payers money has been sent to Greece. If stating fact is "bullying" then so be it.
IDS playing a spurious terror card - what a crock
The quality will probable only o down from here too... 🙁
mikewsmith - Member
To all the yes people supporting the MEP gravy train. Do you actually know how worse off we'll be if we leave?
Not much worse off but at least you are the "king of your own castle". Any large organisation that leave BritLand will only give more opportunities to their competitors so I doubt many will leave coz that's just a myth. If they blame BritLand for their loss, assuming OUT wins, then they are themselves to be blamed coz they have a failed business model to begin by having the rules (protectionism) to probe up their business unfairly.
On leaving the UK will not have automatic trade agreements.
It will have to comply with all the same EU rules to trade with the EU but have no say.
With your current BritLand bureaucratic mind set that is hardly a problem at all to comply or to deal with rules. Besides, business can deal with them easily. Yes, easily. You will be surprised how good business react to their environment when money is concerned.
The people who currently do the jobs a large amount of Brits feel too good to do will have to leave.
Nothing last forever but I bet they will still be much better off then you working class lot in BritLand.
All those cheap bike bits from the EU will have Import Duty slapped on them.
You buy bikes from EU? Crikey.
China is your new neighbour so whatever import duty you slap on China you cannot compete with them. EU ya right let's see if they can compete with China ...
Movement in the EU will become harder for British National
Not much different by comparison to you lot traveling to out-side EU innit? How many of you Brits holiday outside EU or the far east? Difficult movement? I mean even all me mates with non-EU passports can travel freely in EU without much hassle so what is your problem?
🙄
edit: I bet most people on this forum has long decided "IN" or "OUT" so the debate here on STW is merely propaganda vs counter propaganda for the mind of the indecisive or the ignorant and naïve.
I certainly make up my mind long time ago coz I see them coming ... 😛
To all the yes people supporting the MEP gravy train. Do you actually know how worse off we'll be if we leave?
At least you accept we will be worse off
WIll make the scottish one look like it was fact basedThe quality will probable only o down from here too...
Its strange how these debates pan out.
It will be interesting when :
Spain starts deporting all our pensioners who are sponging off their state
We start paying higher airfares in Europe.
Our chalet staff are all locals as the English aren't given work permits.
No English MTB guides in Europe.
Sorry, just some of the arguments to trot out.
andyfla - MemberIt will be interesting when :
Spain starts deporting all our pensioners who are sponging off their state
We start paying higher airfares in Europe.
Our chalet staff are all locals as the English aren't given work permits.
No English MTB guides in Europe.Sorry, just some of the arguments to trot out.
If they want to deport them I see no reason why you should worry or stop them if they are considered as spongers.
Higher airfares you say? Try travelling to the Far East and I can assure you my ticket is much more expensive then you lot traveling in Europe. Stop whinging.
Work in BritLand rather than their chalet.
English MTB guide in Europe? Why English/Brits? Can't you use sign language etc? I much prefer their local MTB guide.
Our chalet staff are all locals as the[s] English[/s]british aren't given work permits.
No [s]English [/s] british MTB guides in Europe.
FTFY
IDS playing a spurious terror card - what a crock
Well, CMD has been happy enough to use that well-thumbed card against Corbyn, so he cant really complain.
What is now absolutely getting right on my tits is the whole pathetic press obsession with the Boris Johnson in/out shake it all about bollocks. Seriously.... who ****ing cares?! Is he the only person being given a vote?
Boris is like a needy attention-seeking teenager. He's not ruminating over the future of the UK in or out of the EU, he's trying to work out which position will best further his ambitions as a future leader of the Tories. Are these people seriously thinking it's about anything other than that. The only thing Boris cares about is Boris. I'm genuinely mystified as to anyone being fooled by his amiable buffoon shtick any more. If anyone can't see through it to the ruthless ambition and terminal narcissism, they really are morons!
I'm complaining not Dave.
Difficult movement? I mean even all me mates with non-EU passports can travel freely in EU without much hassle so what is your problem?
Standard visa to UK costs £85 and lasts up to 6 months? If true, my visa costs would have been pretty big over the last 5 years as I have family in the EU who visit regularly. In some cases, those visits were over 6 months and could be a hassle to sort out. Not sure in cases of ill health etc. how easy it is to sort out quickly.
Try travelling to the Far East and I can assure you my ticket is much more expensive then you lot traveling in Europe.
The far east is further away, hence why it's more expensive. Europe will not be moving further away, but will be getting more expensive. Do you see?
Standard visa to UK costs £85 and lasts up to 6 months? If true, my visa costs would have been pretty big over the last 5 years as I have family in the EU who visit regularly. In some cases, those visits were over 6 months and could be a hassle to sort out. Not sure in cases of ill health etc. how easy it is to sort out quickly.
If we can visit the USA and Canada without the need for a visa, and they us, then I am sure we can arrange a reciprocal agreement with Europe... Like we had before.
RichPenny - MemberDifficult movement? I mean even all me mates with non-EU passports can travel freely in EU without much hassle so what is your problem?Standard visa to UK costs £85 and lasts up to 6 months? If true, my visa costs would have been pretty big over the last 5 years as I have family in the EU who visit regularly. In some cases, those visits were over 6 months and could be a hassle to sort out. Not sure in cases of ill health etc. how easy it is to sort out quickly.
Choices:
1. Move to UK.
2. Move to EU.
3. £85 per pop - £170/yr - If you don't have that kind of money you are not meant to live in UK or EU.
4. Regularly go for health check.
If a 3rd world person can manage to deal with all that why can't you? Are you from the 3rd world? If not yours are not a concern.
RichPenny - Member
Try travelling to the Far East and I can assure you my ticket is much more expensive then you lot traveling in Europe.
The far east is further away, hence why it's more expensive. Europe will not be moving further away, but will be getting more expensive. Do you see?
Choices:
1. Travel less to EU.
2. Travel more to the far east (could even be cheaper cost per mile comparison in future).
3. Don't travel.
4. Travel locally.
...to me in Wales the EU is that bit more independence from the Westminster gov't and something we benefit from as a certainty and as such I can't see any reason why I would want to vote to leave.
Agree with this but Wales will remain completely invisible during the whole process. Saw it this morning on the Marr show - Sturgeon, Farage and Cameron.
ninfan - MemberIf we can visit the USA and Canada without the need for a visa, and they us, then I am sure we can arrange a reciprocal agreement with Europe... Like we had before.
With this government, with its commitment to reducing immigration, its demands for tighter border controls, and a proven track record of using spiralling visa costs and difficulty to deter even those immigrants who make the biggest positive contribition?
Chewy, Choice 5, the status quo of free travel, is preferable to all of those thanks.
RichPenny - Member
Chewy, Choice 5, the status quo of free travel, is preferable to all of those thanks.
No such thing as free things in this world I am afraid coz someone got to pay for it ...
With this government, with its commitment to reducing immigration, its demands for tighter border controls, and a proven track record of using spiralling visa costs and difficulty to deter even those immigrants
Sorry, I thought we would have a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn very soon, so obviously none of those problems would apply (no problem with Gibraltar either, as Jezza wants to hand it back to Spain)
Laura K at the BBC reporting Boris will campaign for Leave, thats a massive boost for us 😀
Hugely popular, high profile politician whomhas charisma and is a formidable speaker. @binners, if true its huge news for the Leave campaign. Boris can amd will convert wavering voters and bring large numbers if Tories into the Leave camp.
Visa. There will absolitely NOT be visa requirements to visit other EU countries post a Leave vote. It will be business as usual with free movement with our passports just like it is now. What will disapear is the automatic right to love and work in an EU country. That will require a visa
Cheap bike bits from Europe ? They all come from Asia anyway. The German online sites are cheaper as they have some kind of VAT avoiding wheeze.
Laura K at the BBC reporting Boris will campaign for Leave, thats a massive boost for us
Not bad for Dave either. He's got his own man in the other camp.
It will be business as usual with free movement with our passports just like it is now
So no restrictions on criminals then they will just be allowed in freely #jambyfact