[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Jambalaya,

I get that we're a net contributor, that's not really what concerns me.
What I am most concerned about is that, at present, a very large amount of EU money is invested in a very large amount of projects, businesses and social enterprises in the UK (and by the UK, I mean all of it, not just London and the South East). Many of these projects are being funded by the EU largely because our own government won't fund them.
Do you really think that Dave and his mates will continue to fund all of these projects with the money saved from leaving?
My bet is that they will squander it all away with vote winning drops in VAT and tax breaks for their mates.
Every time I ask any of the "out" group about anything remotely specific, all I seem to get is the same old "net contributor", "ever closer union" and migration bollocks.
We are part of a massive administrative system that works on many complex levels. Please can one of you explain to me (like I'm an idiot if you like) what we would actually do to replace all the current good that parts of our EU membership actually do for us?

@Growie, it was the first one that came to mind. How about an EU army and one that can be deployed to police the borders of member countries without their right of veto - note this was discussed as the EU wanted to be able to OPEN the borders to migrants of countries who had sought to slow/divert migrants. Armed forces of another country on your land with no right to prevent it ?

How about the €300bn gift to Greece which now acts as a rope around Europes neck, Greece will default, the EU will be forced to put even more money in against the wishes of many countries as they've been outvoted ? € 2bn Slovakian taxpayers money, a relatively poor country, has been sent to Greece against the wishes of their government.

Are some people actually basing their decision in part based on those that are saying no?!

I don't like Gove because apart from some of the things he has done in minor prison reform as Justice secretary I fundamentally disagree with his approach to most matters as he has explained them.
I don't like IDS as .... well the list is too long to put down here , but again I fundamentally disagree with his approach.

The main trouble with both of the above is that they are willing, like Jeremy Hunt, to continue to ignore sound statistical and evidence based information that repudiates their position purely on ideological grounds. If that can do this with things that I have personal experience of than how can I trust them on matters that I am less well versed in?

I don't like Nige because I think contrary to what he spouts he is just in it for himself first with everybody else a distant second.
Don't get me started on George Galloway...

So to answer your question it is at least in part because the leave campaign has attracted this calibre of people that I personally have no time for that I wish to stay in, but only a small part. It is confirmation if you like that my thoughts about the reasons for staying are correct having read and listened to plenty on various media from all sides of the debate.

I've decided that my vote will be based on the implications for the 100Euro's stashed in our holiday folder.

So, would Brexit mean our small pile of Euro's go up or down in value?

Greece is/was essentially a failure of the € not the EU and they should not be confused - except by those seeking to distort the truth. (Of course, there were other factors). No one can moan about money going back to Greece that is simply the balancing act on the capital account - econ 101

The lose of sovereignty is also massively overstated IMO.

With/without Dave we are in a great position at the heart of one of the world's most important economic/trade zones, in a period of no wars between us, and with unique arrangements that avoid many of the downsides of the Euro project. It's amazing what people ae prepared to throw away on the basis of the kind of crap that UKIP spout. But as the Scottish referendum showed its what you get people to believe that counts, not what is actually true.

I foresee a rather dispiriting few months.

Gove's last shot at getting back in the running post CMD? Why do parties miss the obvious fact that some people just are not cut out for the top job. Leave that to Labour at the moment.

The Spain/Gibraltar dispute doesn't have much to do with the EU and it's up to the UK and Spain to solve it.

I would have been in, but after Greece I am seriously concerned about sovereignty.

Now I am undecided.

Common agricultural policy takes up 40% of EU budget. Agriculture makes up less than 2% of EU GDP.

yes, but you buy subsidised food.

Common agricultural policy takes up 40% of EU budget. Agriculture makes up less than 2% of EU GDP.

If Gove (and the Govt) can't achieve what he states in his letter, then resign and let us elect someone you can - and stop blaming someone else for your failures.

Agriculture has to be preserved and maintained beyond what would be required for other industries. It might be cheaper to import all our food from China but it would not be a good idea.

I'd rather no subsidies. It would enable a fair playing field for farmers from developing countries aswell. But honestly my main beef with subsidies is that wealthy landowners can claim them just for owning land that is farmable.

Just had dinner with a couple fed by the Mail and the Torygraph - suffice to say we did not agree on EU! The amount of stuff they have/had swallowed was worrying

Its going to make the scottish debate look like the more factual one

the out camp
[img] [/img]

I'm sure the scotch nationalists will be able to show Gove how to be gracious losers

you don't simply claim CAP payments for owning land - it wasn't landowner's decision to decouple CAP payments from production and shift / link payments to environmental management - look up the BPS scheme rules for England or Wales etc. I'd also sooner have my food produced to UK/EU standards rather than those than say from the US etc.

we are in a great position at the heart of one of the world's most important economic/trade zones, in a period of no wars between us, and with unique arrangements that avoid many of the downsides of the Euro project. It's amazing what people ae prepared to throw away on the basis of the kind of crap that UKIP spout.

Pretty much the nail on the head I think. There are many things wrong with the EU, but if you're going to play the game, you need to be at the table. This debate really does make strange bedfellows. At least I have the comfort of still disagreeing with Jamba. 🙂

Prediction: Cameron gone on the 24th June. And bizarrely I don't particularly like that scenario.

I agree with THM and dazh above.

Hypothetical: if you're a Tory MP with no particular convictions apart from the desire to have power, which way do you go on this? Your party is about to rip itself to bits. How do you come out smelling of roses?

And then the same question for the Labour MPs...

tory- support the pm yet have as low a profile as possible/say you are doing it with a heavy heart etc then claim you were just being loyal?

labour - won't be ripped apart as much and wont matter as not the govt.

At least I have the comfort of still disagreeing with Jamba.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/revealed-how-we-pay-our-richest-landowners-millions-subsidies

I suspect the [b][u]In [/u][/b]crowd is now jumping with joy that the PM has come back with a brilliant deal of the century.

Looks like we are all going to feed the world again ... oh hang on ... are you playing the devil or god? 🙄

The irony is that we want to break up USSR but now we want the formation of EU-SSR ... 😆

As a legal alien (Johnny foreigner to you lot me) [b]I will vote OUT[/b] ... 😛

fin25 - Member
Jambalaya,

I get that we're a net contributor, that's not really what concerns me.
What I am most concerned about is that, at present, a very large amount of EU money is invested in a very large amount of projects, businesses and social enterprises in the UK (and by the UK, I mean all of it, not just London and the South East). Many of these projects are being funded by the EU largely because our own government won't fund them.
Do you really think that Dave and his mates will continue to fund all of these projects with the money saved from leaving?
My bet is that they will squander it all away with vote winning drops in VAT and tax breaks for their mates.
Every time I ask any of the "out" group about anything remotely specific, all I seem to get is the same old "net contributor", "ever closer union" and migration bollocks.
We are part of a massive administrative system that works on many complex levels. Please can one of you explain to me (like I'm an idiot if you like) what we would actually do to replace all the current good that parts of our EU membership actually do for us?

This is my worry, the eu money specifically goes to disadvantaged areas, even a lot of the money that goes to things like universities is tied to catalysing economic growth in less well off areas.

You'd have no nice trail centres if it wasn't for eu funding!

chewkw
As a legal alien (Johnny foreigner to you lot me) I will vote OUT ... ?

Chewkw. Ironically, the only people that think that people like you are johnny foreigner, are people like you.

ed ? € 2bn Slovakian taxpayers money, a relatively poor country, has been sent to Greece against the wishes of their government.

Only that has not happened. Not a single penny of Slovak tax payers money has been sent to Greece.

In for me. On the subject of immigration in particular I cannot see leaving will make much difference at all. Non-EU immigration will still have the same issues as it does now and EU immigration will be down to government policy which I suspect will be pretty much along the lines of what CMD has negotiated.

The Out campaign's message that somehow if we leave our borders will close and no one will be allowed in is nonsense. I don't think for one minute that is what the government has in mind.

Further, migrants will still make it as far as Calais and will still try and cross the Channel. There will still be a war in Syria driving people to our shores. Businesses will still need overseas workers.

If someone in the know who supports a Brexit could let me know if I'm wrong on this point I would be grateful because I'm struggling to see the connection between leaving and immigration suddenly becoming a non-issue.

Economically, why would you leave the largest trade bloc in the world? Yes we may be net contributor to the EU budget but that does not mean that we do not benefit significantly in terms of commerce and the ease of trading. The City in particular seems to enjoy the best of both worlds and look what happened when regulation was too light touch. That went well didn't it?

Further, nothing about being in the EU prevents us from doing bilateral deals with non-EU members - another fallacy I've seen bandied around by the Out campaign.

All in all - I just do not see how leaving benefits us at all. If anything it is a massive unnecessary risk that won't achieve anywhere near the changes that the Out campaign are suggesting.

as the [s]Scottish referendum [/s] general election showed its what you get people to believe that counts, not what is actually true.

FTFY

Greece is/was essentially a failure of the € not the EU and they should not be confus

Obviously the two are related since apart from countries with a specific opt out (UK DK) the others are supposed to use or "move towards" using the Euro.

Actsully DrJ I was wrong, its not €2bn its €3.1bn. Slovakia is the most exposed to Greece after Malta as a percentage of GDP. The Greeks have the Slovakian's money, well spent already actually and they won't be giving it back

[img] [/img]

@tmh, who created the euro, who set and then ignored the requirements for entry, who allowed Greece to join, who ignored their spiralling debts (twas hardly a surprise when they owned up to them was it?), who fudged the bailoit and simply booted a very large can a few yards down the road. The euro is a perfect example of eu incompetance. A colossal failire. If you are dispirated, sign up and do some campaigning. I look forward to discussing it over a beverage sometime, perhaps I'll invite you to an event 😉

Agriculture is one of my pet subjects, I'd fiercely like to see farming supoorted much better in the UK, ending ridiculously cheap imports including horse burgers from Eastern Europe via France and Ireland would be a start. Significantly tightening animal welfare legislation and banning imports from those that don't comply (impossible under EU law). EU's trade war with Russia didn't include a provision for protecting Pig farmers from the excess supply of Pork. Typical EU action poorly thought through.

athgray - Member

chewkw
As a legal alien (Johnny foreigner to you lot me) I will vote OUT ... ?

Chewkw. Ironically, the only people that think that people like you are johnny foreigner, are people like you.

Nothing wrong with who I am or the like of me coz I/we don't buy into your ideology ...

Who are you kidding eh?

There are two kinds of foreign thinkings:

1. The ones that want to change your society to fit them.
2. The ones want that do not want to have more competitions in an already hard fought place to earn a living.

I am the latter.

You are the privilege one that is out of touch and very few foreigners will say what they really think to you.

It looks like there will be another wasted generation ...

🙄

Hypothetical: if you're a Tory MP with no particular convictions apart from the desire to have power, which way do you go on this? Your party is about to rip itself to bits. How do you come out smelling of roses?

Start by not forgetting the contribution of their heroine Maggie. Note how often the OUT team ignore the impact of the rebate that the iron lady negotiated on our behalf. How odd...?

Our contribution is low as a %age of GDP (a massive 1%) and as a result of this we are the lowest contributed among member states. Well done Maggie 😉 We get the benefits for a fraction of the cost, what a bummer.

Jambas, I need no convincing of the folly that is the €, but that doesn't make me anti the EU. On the contrary, it is perfectly possible, indeed logical, to distinguish between the two.

But the issu of integration is REAL and hence my frustration on the timing and presentation of the referendum. We are not voting on a reformed EU at all. That is Dave's spin. We are voting on being a member of something that cannot continue to exist in its current form. And that is plain stupid.

Actsully DrJ I was wrong, its not €2bn its €3.1bn. Slovakia is the most exposed to Greece after Malta as a percentage of GDP. The Greeks have the Slovakian's money, well spent already actually and they won't be giving it back

I'll leave it to thm to explain to you how "exposure to Greece" is not the same as "sending money to Greece". (In fact the choice of Slovakia as an example is particularly poor, as a little Googling would have revealed.)

Here's a link to the Welsh Government's page on EU funding - is it absolutely guaranteed that that funding, £500 million per year, would still be available to us here if there was a vote to leave?

http://gov.wales/funding/eu-funds/?lang=en

None of you outists gonna answer me then?

It's beginning to look like you lot have only got half a plan...

No, DrJ I'd like to hear it from you. A big chunk of that €3.1bn (50%?) was new money that Slovakia absolutely did send to Greece. The rest was taking over prior debts, the alternative to which was the Greeks having to pay Slovakia back. Thisi is real money the Greeks are taking and paying to citizens as wages, benefits and pensions. The Slovakian Finance Minister was one of the most vocal anti-bailout voices for good reason.

I appreciate your not in the market for advice from me but your Greek relatives should get all their money and as many assets as they can out of the country and ideally denominated in something other than euros. Greece could easily default in 2017 in the midst of French and German elections when a further bailout will be politically impossible.

@tmh I don't see us being at the center of Europe, in fact we are far from it. Look at Junkers appointment against our wishes. Now I'm delighted he's there as it provides hours of campaign material about institutionalised tax evasion, EU excess and general political incompetance. There was a time I thought we should join the euro in order to move to the very center of influence of the EU, but that was 10 years ago and I'm very glad Brown kept us out.

As Marr starts this morning, Gove and Boris' actions are simple cynical positioning

The Tories and Europe.... 😳

Jambas, as an economist, I have never been in favour of the € for good reason. But....

Given you earlier comments about EU/UK trade its pretty difficult to argue that we are not in the centre of Europe. Of course we are and why do you think Merkel is so desperate to accommodate Cameron.

Thanks tmh, time to switch on the VPN. Boris position very interesting, hes naturally Leave and if he campaings that way and wins he is a shoe in for leader as Cameron will have to step down and Osbourne is firmly Remain. Flipmside is a loss meams he's hands the advantage to Osbourne and May.

@fin - we are the 5th richest country in the world, we only get back a fraction of what we put into the EU. We can fund our own projects. Also IF (and I have to agree with kimbers earlier post it is an IF) we take tough action to address tax avoidance embedded in the EU we'd have a few billion extra per anum on top for projects. BTW trail centres are paid in part by land owners for example npower in Wales. Did Lady Canning have EU money, I thought it was crowd funded by bods like me sending a donation.

No, DrJ I'd like to hear it from you.

As you wish:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eurozone-bailouts-idUKBRE9410C920130502

"Apart from the initial bilateral loans to Greece in 2010 (*) which totalled 52.9 billion euros, no euro zone taxpayer money was sent to Greece, or any other country. All the later bailouts were financed on markets via the eurozone bailout fund."

(*) Which Slovakia opted out of.

we only get back a fraction of what we put into the EU

Oh no Sturgeon and her shaking head on Marr now.

Arrggghh tmh you b-stard first thing I see is Sturgeon

And now Farrage - why did I not go for an early ride instead. Bad choice....

Oh God more crap on migration.