they used to have compulsory voting in the ussr you know, didn’t change much.
They have it in Oz, and version of PR, it works quite well but is let down in other respects. Compulsory means everyone is counted, you are free to spoil your ballot.
A further question must be decisive, the deal or remain, there is no other deal available before the end of the time limit.
Alternatives involve free votes in Parliament for a variety of options.
If we keep saying what won't work, we need to find a way out of this.
So now we have:
Remain: no problem, it just requires the government of the day to revoke Art. 50
Extend Art.50, needs the agreement of 27 countires all of which can use their veto to block.
No deal: the default at present
Still hasn't happened yet.
Watching BBC news channel with various politicians popping up to give their opinion.
Some of them are mind bogglingly stupid. Absolute quarter wits.
Compulsory means everyone is counted, you are free to spoil your ballot.
Which doesnt really help much. I would only want it if the "sod those options" actually had some weight. The question though is how could it have some weight in a useful manner?
In a referendun a spoilt ballot paper would be a vote for the status quo.
Which doesnt really help much. I would only want it if the “sod those options” actually had some weight.
So you want a none of the above added to the ballot? If you want that to be an option it needs to have a definition - otherwise it's worse than "leave"
The biggest issue is getting the question right, accusations of vote splitting will not be tolerated.
they used to have compulsory voting in the ussr you know, didn’t change much.
history lessons in the UK really do leave a lot to be desired
I can't see the No Confidence succeeding unless the would be leadership challengers amongst the Tories see it as a chance to grab the PM's job.
Tomorrow is going to be interesting...
if a 2nd ref is instigated by the maynpt it will be no deal or my deal option, to the maybot leave = true condition is already met.
there is no other deal available before the end of the time limit.
Following this evening's vote there is no deal available.
The EU have said they won't extend without material change in our position.
There's insufficient time to organise a referendum before end of March.
The govt won't do it any way.
Without change in the law (that I honestly can't see happening) we're leaving even in the middle of a GE (if the NCV goes through tomorrow) which there really isn't time for and, even if there was, the winning party would have to have a viable alternative on day 1 of government win a vote in commons to strike down our legal obligations, then go to the EU and ask them to, pretty please, give us a bit more time to come to the same conclusion.
Refusing to look at and accept what can't be done is why we are where we are, we've had two years and a referendum campaign dominated by wishful thinking rather than realisim, more "wouldn't it be nice" politics won't change that.
Alternatives involve free votes in Parliament for a variety of options.
None of which would be binding and, even if they were it's a game of one-upmanship due to the binary nature of the commons voting system. Everyone wants their option to be last on the table because if it's first it has to survive every vote so in theory, if it's scheduled "correctly" it could come down to a straight choice between (1) pay 35 billion and walk with no further agreements or (2) no deal, because remain got voted down against ref 2 which then lost to Norway +++
So you want a none of the above added to the ballot?
Not really, as the second sentence hopefully implied. I am just pointing out the flaw in the compulsory voting. If you have that then I think you need the ability to say "all of the above are shit" but how that would work in a referendum or a normal election isnt something I have seen answered well.
The EU will extend...they don't want no deal either
@dangerousbrain it's been used before where they do a series of non binding votes (non sequential) which indicates what the feeling is, result would be to either vote that through or put it to the people.
@dissonance it's counted as spoilt but in these situations it's got to be A or B, at this stage one of these options has to be remain. But we won't get a say until it's too late, I would say you gove are always looking for survey res ponders so sign up and make sure opinion polls are going one way!
The EU will extend…
For what purpose?
For what purpose?
Until we accept the deal or give up and stay.
history lessons in the UK really do leave a lot to be desired
Ballots were issued to everyone entitled to vote under universal sufferage rules, an incomplete or blank ballot was a vote for the incumbent party. (I also believe spoiling a ballot was a criminal offence but I'd need to check that)
You were unable not to vote, you could in theory vote for an alternative candidate but they were rare and gathered (not surprisingly) few votes.
Actual turnout was consistently high anyhow. Rumours persist that failure to vote meant you'd be removed from lists allowing you to get food and so on, though it's difficult to prove it actually happened the rumors were enough to encourage most people to turn out.
By most standards don't vote don't eat, and you're on the roll so not actively voting for option b means you automatically vote for a is close enough to compulsory as to be the same thing.
It's not North Korea though where it's a criminal offence not to vote.
before where they do a series of non binding votes (non sequential) which indicates what the feeling is,
Any ideas where i could look for a non sequential series as I'm not familiar (non binding free votes are easy enough to find)
Always a pleasure to remind everyone about that numpty THM and his constant smug bleating on about how the grown ups had everything under control
😂
I don't have the ref, but it was talked about - happening in the period I was out of the UK, basically votes on different options if my explanation was not spot on, rather than amendments on an option IE if wanted you could vote for 2 contradictory positions without them being binding. Effectively opinion polling the MP's before a binding vote.
The EU will extend only for a ref or a GE.
I think we'll see an emergency declared, an interim government and a full retraction of A50.
Is it now time to play… "how Boris played the UK"…?
I'll start us off…
Boris pushed for Turkey to join EU… other countries didn't come around to his way of thinking and put a stop to it… Boris told the UK to vote to Leave the EU because Turkey was joining.
Boris pushed for London to be more open to immigration and more international in outlook… the Home Secretary and other Tories pushed back hard against this… Boris told the UK to vote to Leave the EU to get 'control' over immigration.
Is it now time to play… “how Boris played the UK“…?
Headline in the Metro(Mail) today, "I bottled leadership" says In Love Borris - he has his fans
IE if wanted you could vote for 2 contradictory positions without them being binding. Effectively opinion polling the MP’s before a binding vote
Ah yes its quite likely they would vote for two contradictory positions but that's because of the sequence and binary nature. You have to frame the whole thing as a series of yes no questions eg
1)MayWay yes/no (effectively this evening, and a no is (sort of) a vote for no deal. MayWay now won't get back on the table)
2)nodeal yes/no (effectively a choice between no deal and remain or "plan b")
3)remain yes/no (no fourth vote as plan b is the only remaining option)
The thing is, if 3 is for plan b, remain is the default if plan b looses and so on. Given the options in a free vote come from members not the government you want your choice to be the last division so you need to table it at the right time which is after other options popular with "your side" but before something too popular with the other lot which might get passed.
In theory they could use the number of votes in favour as a guide to the final outcome but it's not really how parliament is designed to work and what do you do if nothing gets 51%+ of the vote.
Given the options in a free vote come from members not the government you want your choice to be the last division so you need to table it at the right time.
In theory they could use the number of votes in favour as a guide to the final outcome but it’s not really how parliament is designed to work and what do you do if nothing gets 51%+ of the vote.
Well I can't find the example but I think it was possibly in the PR/AV debate
The idea being you do the votes and then put the majority option back to Parliament - it's a bit like holding a referendum. there is no easy option given the system we have here - ie somebody else needs to put bills on the floor.
there is no easy option given the system we have here
Ain't that the truth. Luckily we've a [s]government of strength stability and unified purpose and an opposition which is superb at acting in the best interests of the country, even at expense of their own party, and will by holding to account, constructive debate and provision of real alternatives help the government to get us through this.[/s] parliament with all the back bone, drive and direction of a shoal of jellyfish.
"Let's park the unicorns for five minutes" Emily Maitliss to Matt Hancock on Newsnight
Barry Gardiner is an arse hole.
Not worth me spending time spelling it out in a more grown up fashion.
Corbyn need to get behind a second ref.
I can almost, almost forgive him for not getting behind the Remain campaign (if he had, we probably wouldn't be where we are right now) but if he doesn't get behind a peoples vote I'm done with him. I think a lot of his own party and party members will be to, more importantly.
I genuinely hate David Davis.
He is still saying German car makers and French wine producers will magically budge the EU.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!?
The biggest issue is getting the question right, accusations of vote splitting will not be tolerated.
Single transferrable preference vote then - no clear winner after first round everyones second votes get added in.
Three options...
Remain
EEA / other slightly palatable deal
No Deal / Crash out
Oh can we have a quick transfer from the ABC
Come on Leigh, winter working holiday? Need somebody to get a few good questions landed
No deal isn't a consideration, even the maybot has alluded to that and there is no will in parliament for it either.
It comes down to reality..
A) a softer deal than the one that catastrophically unprecedentedly failed today
B) Remain with all our current benefits and voting rights in the EU.
B) is Vastly more sensible but I'd settle for A.
Well,I guess that's it for tonight.
The perma train wreck continues and all we can do is look out the carriage window at the wheels coming off.
“Let’s park the unicorns for five minutes” Emily Maitliss to Matt Hancock on Newsnight
Seriously? That's fantastic. 😀
"It really doesn’t matter how vile his politics, people vote for him because of how he speaks."
Centuries of breeding. No, not Rees-Mogg, English people.
There's an interesting article on Politics.co.uk about voting mechanisms with three options; it uses an example where you can choose which of the three options wins depending on which mechanism you pick. It would be thoroughly awkward and very difficult to end up with a result that everybody accepted even if a winner seemed obvious at first glance.
Well this **** fantasy turned to dust.
The daily mail is culpable in this shtshow
Meanwhile May's plan is to resubmit the same plan over & over & lose the vote each time
Corbyns plan is to resubmit the same confidence plan over and over & lose that vote each time
Does anyone have any numbers as to how the no confidence vote will work out? Is govt likely to lose?
Is that Daily Mail cover for real? I’d missed that at he time. Is it any wonder we’re in this mess 😳
Well... back to today... Jezza gets to waste another day debating a no confidence motion everyone knows he’ll lose.
It’s not that important though really, I suppose, when you’ve wasted the last 3 years producing nothing but some vague red unicorns nonsense, and totally failing - let’s be honest; not even trying - to hold the government to account
He really is a total and utter waste of space. Even the most deluded of the Momentum lemmings must be able to see that he’s equally as culpable for this shitshow as May.
If the no confidence vote loses, will Corbyn quit?
Tories and DUP hold a majority so if nobody rebels then they can survive it. Based on last night's numbers it takes 5 or 6 I think to loose so somebody from that side must flip. Best bet is a group of tories who want may replaced as leader who think a new leader would win an election and deliver their majority for brexit. Yep we are looking at. Borris the backbone Johnson there
He really is a total and utter waste of space. Even the most deluded of the Momentum lemmings must be able to see that he’s equally as culpable for this shitshow as May.
To get that to happen they need a full pause on a50 a month to do a clean leadership challenger and then election and both parties ditch the leaders.
Next option is a closed door policy session on europe and pick one....
If the no confidence vote loses, will Corbyn quit?
To run with the Corbyn 3D chess meme. No. 3D stalemate.
Until the legislation walks in on March 29th and kicks over the chessboard (or chesscube I guess).
Based on last night’s numbers it takes 5 or 6 I think to loose so somebody from that side must flip.
where's Sinn Fein when you need 'em 😉
