Ffs, turning this round can you honestly say nothing has changed in your life?
In 97 Blair swept to power, first thing he did was saddle my brother with student loans, bit of a change in life.
Changes in agriculture policy have impacted my dad a farmer and the stuff I did to support him setting up a cattle tracking system.
Voting to leave the eu will have some deep and far reaching effects on the UK. Even if you didn't notice the stuff in your life go past you will notice these.
Nothing is guaranteed by staying in the EU.
Fallacy of equivocation- the word means two different things in each statement. One means nothing is certain as we cannot predict the future the other means we have no idea at all what will happen as we have no plan nor idea,
Imagine the choice is staying married or divorce
Both require us to predict the future and what happens so neither is "guaranteed
However one, remaining married as nothign really changes, is far more predictable than the other. This notion they are equivalently "uncertain" or "unknowable" is just not true
One means - we cannot predict the future for ever therefore we cannot be certain- staying marries /in the EU
the other means No idea everything will change and i have no plan whatsoever. Divorce/Leave
They are not the same degree of "unknowing" or uncertainity
I can honestly say nothing has changed...all the things I did before an election I still did after an election...teachers have carried on teaching..nurses have carried on nursing... ad infinitum. Where are these people who are so affected by elections?
Well here are 3 things
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_Reform_and_Work_Act_2016
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_Act_2016
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_and_Planning_Act_2016
Then throw in a small budget
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/budget-2016-some-of-the-things-weve-announced
Still nothing effected you?
@ pondo. 'What has Europe done for us?'
Looks good on paper. How much of that is the EU responsible for?
What it fails to mention is that millions of people in this country are working just to exist on very low pay. Therefore largely negating the advantages of said regulations.
Unite is becoming increasingly toothless under EU rule.
Brexit seems to bring out the worst in people
Fallacy of equivocation- the word means two different things in each statement. One means nothing is certain as we cannot predict the future the other means we have no idea at all what will happen as we have no plan nor idea,
Imagine the choice is staying married or divorce
Both require us to predict the future and what happens so neither is "guaranteed
However one, remaining married as nothign really changes, is far more predictable than the other. This notion they are equivalently "uncertain" or "unknowable" is just not true
One means - we cannot predict the future for ever therefore we cannot be certain- staying marries /in the EU
the other means No idea everything will change and i have no plan whatsoever. Divorce/Leave
They are not the same degree of "unknowing" or uncertainity
. . All that effort just to say you agree with me.
lazybike: are you saying you've never noticed *ANY* changes in your life through as a result of changes in government or policies? Really?
I mean obviously not [i]everything[/i] changes. You still get up in a morning and put your trousers on one leg at a time. But still..
75 years ago my Grandfather like so many others fought in occupied Europe so as to remove a dictator and ensure a democracy for Europe and Britain prevailed. Tomorrow the 'Vote Remainers' are going to go to the polls to tick a box that in essence gives a thumbs up to another, all be it different dictatorship and carte blanche to continue eating away at the sovereignty so many died to preserve.
All I can say is that you should all be ashamed of yourselves and I liken such a vote to an act of treason.
[i]All I can say is that you should all be ashamed of yourselves and I liken such a vote to an act of treason.
[/i]
Hmm where have we heard that before...
Tomorrow the 'Vote Remainers' are going to go to the polls to tick a box that in essence gives a thumbs up to another, all be it different dictatorship and carte blanche to continue eating away at the sovereignty so many died to preserve.
What an utter crock of shit. Smoke enough of the kool aid and you might get close but you are trying to do a Boris comparing Europe to the nazis. Worst of all time after time the facts don't agree with you.
75 years ago my Grandfather like so many others fought in occupied Europe so as to remove a dictator and ensure a democracy for Europe and Britain prevailed. Tomorrow the 'Vote Remainers' are going to go to the polls to tick a box that in essence gives a thumbs up to another, all be it different dictatorship and carte blanche to continue eating away at the sovereignty so many died to preserve.
All I can say is that you should all be ashamed of yourselves and I liken such a vote to an act of treason.
Agreed.
Why is that Unite flyer full of lies ?
The equal pay act had nothing to do with the EU nor did the race relation act. Britain wasn't even in the EU when they were introduced. Same goes for the health and safety at work act.
The EU doesn't give a monkeys about "fairness at work", if you are unlucky to have worked for your employer for less than 2 years you can be sacked unfairly and the EU will do absolutely nothing about it.
The EU doesn't even protect the right to strike - the most fundamental and hard fought employment right of all.
Employers can be exempt from the 48 max hours under EU directives.
If telling a pack of blatant lies like that is legal then I'm surprised. If Unite was offering a product or service they certainly wouldn't be allowed to do it.
What it fails to mention is that millions of people in this country are working just to exist on very low pay.
What makes you think that will change if we leave the EU? Seems to be widely agreed that there will be some heavy financial consequences and possibly another recession.
Unite is becoming increasingly toothless under EU rule.
Nothing to do with the Tories anti-union legislation, then. Thanks for clearing up that common misconception.
The EU doesn't even protect the right to strike - the most fundamental and hard fought employment right of all.
That's because we are "sovereign" and "in control". Isn't it great?
I can honestly say nothing has changed...all the things I did before an election I still did after an election...teachers have carried on teaching..nurses have carried on nursing... ad infinitum. Where are these people who are so affected by elections?
The thing that scares me the most is that everyone gets a vote in this referendum. 😯
75 years ago my Grandfather like so many others fought in occupied Europe so as to remove a dictator and ensure a democracy for Europe and Britain prevailed.
And one of the things that your Grandfather and his generation did in the aftermath of that war was to try an unite Europe in a common purpose:
"We are engaged in the process of creating a European unit in the world organization of the United Nations. I hope that we shall become one of several continental units which will form the pillars of the world instrument for maintaining security, and be the best guarantee of maintaining peace. I hope that in due course these continental units will be represented in the world organization collectively, rather than by individual States as in the present system, and that we shall be able to settle a great mass of our problems among ourselves in Europe before they are brought, or instead of them being brought, to the world council for decision."-- [url= http://www.winstonchurchill.org/resources/speeches/235-1946-1963-elder-statesman/111-the-council-of-europe ]Winston Churchill, 1949[/url]
Why cant the original 9 members of the EU remains just 9?
Wouldn't that mean kicking some out?
As Boris said tonight there are (probably) 200 million people in the EU who'd like to get out and more than that who would like a referendum
Have you been feeding him #jambafacts?
75 years ago my Grandfather like so many others fought in occupied Europe so as to remove a dictator and ensure a democracy for Europe and Britain prevailed
My dad was in that too. Which is one reason why I'm voting Remain.
An act of treason to vote for an elected government?
Unless you felt that the eu elections were not worthy of your consideration.
Sometime i do wonder about the mentality of some people.
Your grandfather went to war to prevent a horrendous regime from taking over Europe for ever.
Any attempt to compare the eu with the nazi's should offend everyone who fought in that war and the many millions who died in that conflict.
If i were you i would hang my head in shame for that comparison. I would question your humanity if i thought you had any
The thing that scares me the most is that everyone gets a vote in this referendum.
Really annoys me when people say this. We live in a democracy. Just because you disagree with someone else's view doesn't mean that they aren't entitled to it.
@grahams..I can honestly say I've never noticed any change after an election..what changes have you noticed that directly impact you? Have you changed the way you live because of an election result?
DrJ - Member"Unite is becoming increasingly toothless under EU rule".
Nothing to do with the Tories anti-union legislation, then. Thanks for clearing up that common misconception.
So the EU doesn't defend workers rights then.
So the EU doesn't protect us from Tory governments then.
Thanks for clearing up that common misconception DrJ
Hmm where have we heard that before...
I'd have gone with you are Thomas Mair and I claim my £5
Why I am voting Remain.
by Ben Goldacre, aged 41.
[b]A smaller democracy will not be “more representative”.[/b]
The UK government is no more under your control than the EU. Diluting your vote one in 65m or one in 500m amounts to the same thing: no control. You couldn’t get political agreement from the people in one family, one pub, or one bus. You can’t “vote them out”, you’ve never done that, stop pretending you can do it in the future. Politics is about compromise: terrible, soul-destroying, mature compromise with other people, most of whom are awful. Your local council don’t represent your views and values any better than your MEP.
[b]Immigration is just going to happen.[/b]
In or out of the EU, there will be lots, and lots of immigration: bad luck if you don’t like that. We’re perfectly able to control non-EU immigration, right now, and yet no government ever does. They never will. This is not the fault of the EU, it’s more complicated than that. Deal with it. Immigration will never stop.
[b]“Straining” schools, waiting lists, and hospitals are your fault.[/b]
This is not the fault of the EU. It’s your fault. It’s happened slowly. The UK has failed to build houses, failed to train hospital staff, failed to invest in the NHS, failed to build schools. Your country. Your UK. Your government. Your fault. Nobody else. The NHS is staffed by immigrants, they keep it running, they will save your life and build your house. Don’t try to blame them for things that are your fault.
[b]The EU is a good shot at preserving peace.[/b]
Remember that news story about the British generals who think we should leave the EU because NATO preserves peace, not the EU? These are bad generals who only know about guns. Russia right now is an odd, aggressive country. But they didn’t show up at the Ukrainian border with tanks, out of the blue: they manufactured a social and economic pretext before they rolled in. A strong EU makes this kind of pretext harder to contrive. You want to be good close friends with all your neighbours, and their neighbours, as far as the eye can see. That’s how you hold a line that preserves peace: by sharing friendship, sharing trade, and sharing grumbles about crap admin in Brussels. You do not preserve peace by buying and using weapons.
[b]Brexit use language that’s targeted at losers.
[/b]
The Brexit campaign talk about “taking control”, about “building an optimistic future” for yourself. These are things you say to losers: to people who feel they have no control, or a gloomy future. It’s the language of crap self-help books in airport bookshops. You are better than that.
[b]Countries come and go.
[/b]
Right now, people talk about Eastern Europeans like they’re biologically destined to be parasites, because their countries are poorer, and some of their citizens travel for work. That could change, really fast. Polish people are not a biologically inferior race: they lived under communism for four decades, and now they’re catching up. Poland has the fastest growing economy in Europe (faster than Central Europe, faster than the EU-15). Warsaw is full of skyscrapers. Be nice. Make friends now. Cement those ties to a large, fast growing European economy with a rich cultural history.
[b]Brexit will hurt the economy.[/b]
This means your children and neighbours. Stop pretending you don’t care. Just vote remain. It’s boring, there’s nothing awesome about it, but sometimes you have to take a break from useful productive work to stop idiots breaking things.
Ben Goldacre
www.badscience.net
@captain sasquatch...theres a 50 50 chance that I will vote the same as you..no need to be scared.
Why is that Unite flyer full of lies ?
Well said, I would like to add that many of these laws are not enforced in the real world.
Zero hour contracts are commonplace.
Equal pay for women easily sidestepped where possible.
Discrimination, many workplaces disriminate against British workers at point of potential recruitment.Favouring Eastern European workers who are seen as more subservient.
That poster has the gall to even mention holidays. Many cannot afford a real holiday.
Sickness rights? You will soon feel unwell again on return after daring to be ill.
48hr maximum? Sure, unless you're made to be 'manager' 'supervisor' on salary (low)
This is the minimum standard for workers and also the maximum, as new or improved conditions may be impossible to negotiate as the Unions are weaker and employers stronger.
If this is the best the EU has to offer.
It can stuff it.
Bollocks on the salary point I'm salaried and still signed onto working time directive.
an say is that you should all be ashamed of yourselves and I liken such a vote to an act of treason.
You do realise that sounds very similar to the chap who had a recent visit to the Old Bailey???
The generation who fought in WW2 were fighting for their mates, their families and for change to the "old order". Very few fought for "King and Country" - and they voted for social change as soon as they got home. The lack of "peace dividend" for Churchill in the post war election captured exactly the mood of the country.
Invoking false societal memories of a war that took place over 70 years ago is jingoistic and disingenuous
Your knowledge of Scottish politics is matched only by the state of Labour in Scotland
@gordimor Well I got the Scottish Referendum dead right. Good enough for me. IMO post a Brexit Scotland is less likely to vote for Independence, in any case we have a once in a lifetime chamce to vote Leave as did you.
Churchill has a vision of a United States of Europe in order to remove the Sovereignty of France and Germany so they stopped attacking each other. He had not the slightest intention of giving up our Sovereignty. For us a role in keeping the peace with the British army in Germany and a closer alliance with the US as it was the intervention of fhe Americans in WW2 which was key to us, he wanted to ensure we never again had to pusude the Americans to come to our aid, hence NATO
Bollocks on the salary point I'm salaried and still signed onto working time directive.
Great, that's the way it should be. Most are but many are not. It's mainly an example though of how easy it can be for employers to flout the law. It's commonplace.
Given that this referendum has far reaching consequences of much longer duration than a general election, I'm not actually sure that it's logical that the same people who vote in a general election should be able to vote. It would certainly make sense to me to allow 16 and 17 year olds to vote. I also don't think it would be crazy to cap the vote for anyone retired or who will be retired within 2 years (the duration of expected negotiations resulting from leave).
No it does not make sense for 16/17 year olds to vote. Our voting age 18 and that makes perfect sense.
I can honestly say I've never noticed any change after an election..what changes have you noticed that directly impact you? Have you changed the way you live because of an election result?
Err.. yes? Probably the most obvious is that we were forced to move from Scotland to England as a direct result of the MTAS selection process in the [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernising_Medical_Careers ]Modernising Medical Careers[/url] programme, that was implemented as part of the [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHS_Plan_2000 ]NHS Plan 2000[/url] when Blair came to power.
Given that this referendum has far reaching consequences of much longer duration than a general election, I'm not actually sure that it's logical that the same people who vote in a general election should be able to vote. It would certainly make sense to me to allow 16 and 17 year olds to vote.
I think the 1.3 million British citizens who currently live elsewhere in Europe should have a say. They know more about Europe and free movement than most and potentially stand to lose more too.
Great, that's the way it should be. Most are but many are not. It's mainly an example though of how easy it can be for employers to flout the law. It's commonplace.
The UK has an opt-out on the 48 hours anyway.
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1799518.stm ]Nearly four million people in the UK are working more than 48 hours a week as Britain ignores European limits, figures show.[/url]
jambalaya - MemberNo it does not make sense for 16/17 year olds to vote. Our voting age 18 and that makes perfect sense
Really, you think that a voting age related to a 4-5 year cycle that has at most repercussions for 30-50 years and by and large much less, should be the same as a vote that will happen once and will have repercussions for potentially hundreds of years and certainly decades?
I see no logic in that whatsoever
No it does not make sense for 16/17 year olds to vote. Our voting age 18 and that makes perfect sense
It does make sense you just disagree
its odd we have folk voting who will die before any of this comes to pass and folk who will need to live through it with no say at all.
I am not generally in favour of lowering the voting age nor in having ex pats vote. However this special vote does massively affect them so I can see the sense in changing it for this vote
Not sure I am totally convinced though
The UK has an opt-out on the 48 hours anyway.Nearly four million people in the UK are working more than 48 hours a week as Britain ignores European limits, figures show.
Yep. wheel2wheel's argument seems to be that because the UK has opted out of EU limits that benefit workers, the EU hasn't helped. So we should leave the EU so we can "take control" and opt into those limits on our own... 😕
Telegraph suggesting Ruth and Sadiq are the future of UK politics and BoJo is past it!
Two pro-remain types! The Telegraph! That pro-quitting paper.
I'm so surprised I can't remember which way to vote.
In other news the more extreme elements are at it again
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/yvette-cooper-receives-death-threats-against-her-children-over-eu-stance-a7094701.html ]http://www.independent.co.yvette-cooper-receives-death-threats-against-her-children-over-eu-stance[/url]
Please think twice before labelling those who want to vote for what they see as a bright future for their children in a Britain that is part of a vibrant European community as traitors. It doesn't help the situation.
I am not generally in favour of lowering the voting age nor in having ex pats vote. However this special vote does massively affect them so I can see the sense in changing it for this vote
Yes, should have said I think voting eligibility fine for normal votes.
Also agree ex-pats should be able to vote, didn't realise they couldn't. That is highly illogical as realistically, I imagine, a leave vote would affect them as much if not more than UK residents.
I reckon they need a 10 point quiz adding to the voting paper. Facts about the EU.
Anyone who scores less than 80% has their vote discarded.
Will brexit be the final typically selfish and self-serving gift of the baby boomer generation to those that follow them?
It'd be appropriate
Survey on R4 this morning. Swedish asked two questions
Would you leave the EU if UK was a member - 39% Leave
Would you leave the EU if UK was not a member - 59% Leave
Italians are 50% for Leave
Marine Le Penn has pledged to hold a Referendum
Eurosceptism is very strong in Europe. He project is fundamentally flawed and irreparable
