EU took any vindictive action.
I think is a red herring. "Vindictive action" would very likely backfire imo as other eurosceptic nations are going to intensify their demands of their own referendums.
Independent Scotland is going to have a real problem in joining the EU as the Spanish will almost certainly block them or at the very least stall for years to send a message to Catalonia. The politics of vested interest.
The Flying, imo we will never join even in the event of Remain. No one now thinks thats a good idea, even if a few years ago they said it was "economically essential"
There is a substantially greater chance of Germany exiting the euro than UK joining imo.
@ ox if we join the Euro is such a big if ts not worth answering; we have an opt out and we are not joining so the question is pointless
No question is pointless. If not joining is such a given, why would a government have to specifically mention no plans to join during that government's term in power?
. If not joining is such a given, why would a government have to specifically mention no plans to join during that government's term in power?
Rabid euro haters who would have torn them to shreds if the didn't specifically say that. To them not saying/promising it meant a plan to join and that would be all over the posters.
Germany leave the Euro? Check out its balance of trade. The Euro is at a comfortable rate for keeping the engines of industry going.
Fkying, its an easy thing for Cameron to say and he hopes it will make him look tough, standing up to the EU and all that. So why not (from his perspective). Its like that Morcombe and Wise Mastermind sketch - specialist subject - the bleeding obvious
Ben Goldacre of Bad Science fame posted his reasons for voting remain ... [url= https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YdtUabICi-C1RMMJGOJQH2omv1sJ53zUlJLH1Ets8BM/edit?pref=2&pli=1 ]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YdtUabICi-C1RMMJGOJQH2omv1sJ53zUlJLH1Ets8BM/edit?pref=2&pli=1[/url]
Yet another voice of reason...
At least if there was one now Salmond would not even have to be asked the currency question as with the UK out of the EU Scotland would have to take the euro and quite probably immediately.
You have this one dead right Jamba. Your knowledge of Scottish politics is matched only by the state of Labour in Scotland
[i]TurnerGuy - Member[/i]
[i]Posted 3 days ago # Report-Post[/i]
Just finished watching that. Unsurprisingly I pretty much agreed with it all. However the arguments it contained have been comprehensively ignored by the media, again unsurprisingly.
And it's very long which sadly means that only committed left-wingers opposed to the EU are likely to have the commitment to watch it through. Which obviously completely misses the target audience.
It's particularly good from 29 mins imo.
Be happy Vote OUT.
Take charge of your own destiny and do Not let the EU bureaucrats take charge of you.
The world can take care of itself Not you.
Look after your own family and the world will take care of itself.
All those elites will only put you in your place coz they need you to have "challenge" in life.
Vote OUT for your children ... not the EU bureaucrats nor the elites.
Vote OUT for your children
Phew!, thank god for that ........I don't have any children and no desire to ever own any, however I do have a Jack Russell (Toby) so I guess I'll be ok to vote IN
Ben Goldacre of Bad Science fame posted his reasons for voting remain ...
So:
Paragraph one: our vote is meaningless, we can't "vote out" anyone and so by extension we can't "vote in" anyone.
Paragraph three: "straining" schools, NHS waiting list, etc. is our fault. Yours and mine. Because of our government. The one we can't vote out, or in.
I'm calling Poe's Law.
Vote OUT for Toby then. 😛somafunk - Member
Vote OUT for your children
Phew!, thank god for that ........I don't have any children and no desire to ever own any, however I do have a Jack Russell (Toby) so I guess I'll be ok to vote IN
For those that CBA to real the link
Why I am voting Remain.
by Ben Goldacre, aged 41.A smaller democracy will not be “more representative”.
The UK government is no more under your control than the EU. Diluting your vote one in 65m or one in 500m amounts to the same thing: no control. You couldn’t get political agreement from the people in one family, one pub, or one bus. You can’t “vote them out”, you’ve never done that, stop pretending you can do it in the future. Politics is about compromise: terrible, soul-destroying, mature compromise with other people, most of whom are awful. Your local council don’t represent your views and values any better than your MEP.Immigration is just going to happen.
In or out of the EU, there will be lots, and lots of immigration: bad luck if you don’t like that. We’re perfectly able to control non-EU immigration, right now, and yet no government ever does. They never will. This is not the fault of the EU, it’s more complicated than that. Deal with it. Immigration will never stop.“Straining” schools, waiting lists, and hospitals are your fault.
This is not the fault of the EU. It’s your fault. It’s happened slowly. The UK has failed to build houses, failed to train hospital staff, failed to invest in the NHS, failed to build schools. Your country. Your UK. Your government. Your fault. Nobody else. The NHS is staffed by immigrants, they keep it running, they will save your life and build your house. Don’t try to blame them for things that are your fault.The EU is a good shot at preserving peace.
Remember that news story about the British generals who think we should leave the EU because NATO preserves peace, not the EU? These are bad generals who only know about guns. Russia right now is an odd, aggressive country. But they didn’t show up at the Ukrainian border with tanks, out of the blue: they manufactured a social and economic pretext before they rolled in. A strong EU makes this kind of pretext harder to contrive. You want to be good close friends with all your neighbours, and their neighbours, as far as the eye can see. That’s how you hold a line that preserves peace: by sharing friendship, sharing trade, and sharing grumbles about crap admin in Brussels. You do not preserve peace by buying and using weapons.Brexit use language that’s targeted at losers.
The Brexit campaign talk about “taking control”, about “building an optimistic future” for yourself. These are things you say to losers: to people who feel they have no control, or a gloomy future. It’s the language of crap self-help books in airport bookshops. You are better than that.Countries come and go.
Right now, people talk about Eastern Europeans like they’re biologically destined to be parasites, because their countries are poorer, and some of their citizens travel for work. That could change, really fast. Polish people are not a biologically inferior race: they lived under communism for four decades, and now they’re catching up. Poland has the fastest growing economy in Europe (faster than Central Europe, faster than the EU-15). Warsaw is full of skyscrapers. Be nice. Make friends now. Cement those ties to a large, fast growing European economy with a rich cultural history.Brexit will hurt the economy.
This means your children and neighbours. Stop pretending you don’t care. Just vote remain. It’s boring, there’s nothing awesome about it, but sometimes you have to take a break from useful productive work to stop idiots breaking things.Ben Goldacre
www.badscience.net
Paragraph one: our vote is meaningless, we can't "vote out" anyone and so by extension we can't "vote in" anyone.
Paragraph three: "straining" schools, NHS waiting list, etc. is our fault. Yours and mine. Because of our government. The one we can't vote out, or in.
I'm calling Poe's Law.
Honestly if leave can present their arguments in neat little silo's why can't remain.
It's taking on the arguments one at a time, the EU is as democratic (or at least as democratic as the UK).
UK governements have failed to address most major infrastructure issues in the UK from power generation, rail infrastructure, roads, housing, schooling and health. None of this is the fault of the EU or immigrants. Don't blame immigration for things the UK government didn't do.
I'm not blaming immigration for anything. I never even mentioned immigration. I'm all for immigration. I think it's healthy and progressive and necessary.
The referendum is not a single-issue vote, no matter how much some try to frame it as one.
the EU is as democratic ([b]or at least as democratic as the UK[/b]).
It really isn't.
I'm not blaming immigration for anything. I never even mentioned immigration. I'm all for immigration. I think it's healthy and progressive and necessary.
Apologies for implying you were, the argument is there to counter those that do.
On Democratic remind me again how you voted for the house of lords?
The referendum is not a single-issue vote, no matter how much some try to frame it as one.
No but countering the arguments in a clear way does help. Along with providing facts.
It was put by somebody in the news that the vote is not
"Is the EU perfect?"
found this, but i'm seriously colour blind....
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On Democratic remind me again how you voted for the house of lords?
Why is there always an assumption that the Brexit camp do not understand the peculiarities of the UK parliament system?
I didn't vote for anyone in the House of Lords, as you well know. I am eligible to apply to become one though, as are you. Seeing as we're doing "questions to which we already know the answer", how do I apply for a seat on the EU Commission?
Regarding differences between the UK and the EU, the Lords are appointed by people who [i]were[/i] elected by the UK voting public. The EU Commission are appointed by - yes, in part, people that the UK public have voted for - but also by people from 27 other countries, whose position in the appointment procedure neither you nor I have any say in.
Another difference is that the House of Commons are able to suggest bills, many of which are manifesto pledges upon which we, the UK voting public, elect them on; suggesting bills is not the sole preserve of the appointed Lords.
Remember: I'm not saying the EU is undemocratic. It's just by dent of being a supra-national organisation it necessarily dilutes national democracy. As such you cannot claim it is as democratic as the UK, from the perspective of a UK citizen.
Regarding differences between the UK and the EU, the Lords are appointed by people who were elected by the UK voting public.
With the exception of the 26 Bishops (Seriouslyt WTF!) and 96 Herediatry ones - the rest are put up there to bolster the numbers of the government of the day (or on their exit)
As such you cannot claim it is as democratic as the UK, from the perspective of a UK citizen.
From where I stand and my perspective the world is flat... statements about democrocy and soveregnty are their to effect people who alreadyt share that perspective. The apathy about EU elections doesn't help.
The EU Commission are appointed by - yes, in part, people that the UK public have voted for - but also by people from 27 other countries, whose position in the appointment procedure neither you nor I have any say in.
Then all bills go back to the MEP's for voting.
From where I stand and my perspective the world is flat... statements about democrocy and soveregnty are their to effect people who alreadyt share that perspective. The apathy about EU elections doesn't help.
I have no idea what that means, other than potentially you're a flat-earther?
Then all bills go back to the MEP's for voting.
This neither disputes anything I've said nor adds anything to my point, other than highlighting that MEPs never have any initial say in what they're actually voting on.
It means that from a perspective you can be very wrong, if you only look at things from your own perspective it's really hard to see the bigger picture of how things work.I have no idea what that means, other than potentially you're a flat-earther?
The MEP's do have a say in what they are voting for
(from Wiki)However, the Council and Parliament may request the Commission to draft legislation, though the Commission does have the power to refuse to do so[50] as it did in 2008 over transnational collective conventions.[51] Under the Lisbon Treaty, EU citizens are also able to request the Commission to legislate in an area via a petition carrying one million signatures, but this is not binding.[52]
The style of operations doesn't really suit the adversrial nature of UK politic though with people needing to be for or againast stuff, but does suit a cooperational style where a group is elected to be impartial of their national interest to move things forward for the improvement of all.
And the UK keeps sending idiots who can't be bothered to participate to the one place that they can make a difference in the EU.
In many ways short term 2 party politics is something that has held back the UK more than being in the EU - see above about skipping on major infrastructure when it was needed or always having to worry about the minority of swing voters in the middle. Watching a national election going on at the moment you see how the power is concentrated in the homes of the undecided/swing electorates.
Why is there always an assumption that the Brexit camp do not understand the peculiarities of the UK parliament system?...the Lords are appointed
With the exception of the 26 Bishops (Seriouslyt WTF!) and [s]96[/s] 92 Herediatry ones
Well don't I look the prize wally? 😆
I knew that as well. Page one, paragraph one of the OU's Introduction to Law module.
Still, my point (just about) stands. The accountability of lawmakers in the EU is a number of degrees further removed from the citizens of the EU than is the case for national governments and their electorate.
Yep 92, typo.
Of those that are appointed how many earned that place to scrutinise laws and pass or reject them based on the amount of money they donated to a political party? or becasue they did a stint in government but had to leave under dubious circumstances ?
The list is interesting but hardly representative of the UK Electorate or accountable to any of them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_the_House_of_Lords
The Current UK government appoints a commisioner, they as a group steer the EU body and that all actions are voted on by MEP's voted for by the citizens of Eurpoe.
Probably the most undemocratic bit is the UK's Veto
At most you can probably claim 1 degree? as the Government appoints commisioners, but then the rest is dealt with by officials elected by us.
For UK government - you vote, somebody gets elected, depending on who's in power that representative may have little/some/no power, all decisions are then ratified by a bunch of people who have never been elected 15% of them are there because they either got to the top of the Church Pyramid or because they fell out between the right pair of legs. The rest are all their for a variety of reasons non of which are related to elections, voting or the public accountability.
They're not directly accountable no, and I'm not arguing that they are. But the Lords ultimately cannot veto law, they can only delay its assent. In the UK, the people we directly elect have the final say on what's on the status books. In the EU it's different.
I feel you're trying to dismantle an argument I haven't made. I'm not saying the EU is undemocratic. I'm not saying that the UK system is perfect. I'm just saying that claims that the EU is "at least" as democratic as the UK would appear to be unfounded, for the reasons I've given.
Fair enough, neither is perfect... The EU is democratic to the people of Europe same as the UK pariament is democratic to the people of the UK as opposed to the people of Stockport.
Which Queeen are you voting for next time?
The EU is democratic to the people of Europe same as the UK pariament is democratic to the people of the UK as opposed to the people of Stockport.
That's a false equivalence. Stockport isn't a nation/country/state/whatever you want to call it, with law-making powers separate to other constituencies in the UK.
Fair enough, neither is perfect... The EU is democratic to the people of Europe same as the UK pariament is democratic to the people of the UK as opposed to the people of Stockport.
Stockport is earmarked for big changes in the coming years, it is one of the more affluent areas of greater Manchester,the least populated and the least diverse.
Expect big changes.
You can kiss goodbye to Stockport as you know it.
OK Scotland then 🙂
The UK still has it's power, it still have it's soverengty, it still has a parliament that makes laws for the people. We have decided to embrace a bigger community in which we accept some of the rules of the greater group.
The EU just seems to be an extension of globalisation, especially TTIP
Yep and [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/what-is-ttip-and-why-does-cameron-want-to-sign-the-biggest-trade-agreement-in-history-10247456.html ]Cameron is one of its biggest fans[/url].
Just as well we are in the EU, as they have provided a lot of the resistance and oversight that has prevented TTIP from being ratified. If we weren't in the EU we'd already have adopted it, and probably with worse terms due to a weaker negotiating position.
Just as well we are in the EU, as they have provided a lot of the resistance and oversight that has prevented TTIP from being ratified. If we weren't in the EU we'd already have adopted it, and probably with worse terms due to a weaker negotiating position.
Absolutely, will TTIP ever get passed, its been in negotiations for so long and been watered down so much already
Posted in the other thread but a good summary from the guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/22/eu-referendum-five-questions-to-answer-before-you-vote?CMP=share_btn_fb
5 big issues, boil. Down to 5 questions.
Its like any other election....think back on all the general elections, what has genuinely changed for you? The day after? The week after? the year after...nothing in your life changes.
The day after? The week after? the year after...nothing in your life changes.
Ask the people who have no jobs or were part of cut backs, or those hired because of a new programme or funding. This vote will have a massive impact on the future of the UK if it's leave.
Ask the people who have no jobs or were part of cut backs, or those hired because of a new programme or funding. This vote will have a massive impact on the future of the UK if it's leave.
It works both ways. Nothing is guaranteed by staying in the EU.
Absolutely but things will change massively if we leave, I'm sure you can agree it's not a thing to be so apathetic about. For better or worse regardless of your side voting for something so fundermental to the future of the UK is important.
I asked the specific question, what has changed for you?
Some idiots caved in and held a Referendum on Scottish independence and eu membership, the overall management of my former employer was changed post an election, rules about moving my pension.
Just a few things.
Things have changed massively by being in the EU.
Better for the STW middle class type and worse for those lower down the pay/education ladder.
@wheel2wheel....once again I'll ask the question.. what has changed for you?
Those lower down the pay are being punished by decades of Tory policies continued under Nu Labour
Blaming the EU because Thatcher made us all more right wing and not care for society is daft.
People who voted for Thatcher claiming they have had an epiphany and now care about the poor/working class they have spent decades punishing and demonising is a lie ;they hate Europe so much they will say anything - IDS, Give, Boris and Farage - whatever you want to call them champions of the poor will never be amongst the description.
Better for the STW middle class type and worse for those lower down the pay/education ladder.
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