He had not the slightest intention of giving up our Sovereignty
SIGH....
We've been over this before...
Did you ask him?
Were you there?
Yes/No answer please.
Random question to people as I am still undecided about where to vote and Im struggling to find an answer anywhere.
Does anybody know the figure of what percentage of net migration settle in the South East year on year?
I moved out of London a couple of years ago back home to the Peak District and the one thing that strikes me is the fear culture people seem to have of migrants and foreigners even though there are non here! The same goes for small towns and villages in Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire where I have family.
My concern for migration is not of people coming to the UK itself as I believe it is a benefit to us, but of the consequences of mass migration concentrating on the one particular area and accentuating the North/South divide.
Has the EU/Gov ever drawn up (working) plans on how to manipulate market forces on immigration?
Yep. wheel2wheel's argument seems to be that because the UK has opted out of EU limits that benefit workers, the EU hasn't helped. So we should leave the EU so we can "take control" and opt into those limits on our own...
. . .don't be silly. That's not the case. You lose credibility when you are disingenuous.
All I can say is that you should all be ashamed of yourselves and I liken such a vote to an act of treason.
Oh dear lord...
Sense of perspective up & left??
@pondo, the UK lead the way in most of those work rights - there have little to do with the EU. The main thing the EU did is the working time directive and even if France really only the government/civil service work those hours and Hollande is trying to reform that (with attendant riots)
Yep. wheel2wheel's argument seems to be that because the UK has opted out of EU limits that benefit workers, the EU hasn't helped. So we should leave the EU so we can "take control" and opt into those limits on our own...
Dunno, I'm not his/er spokesman, but I suspect that wheel2wheel's point is that being in the EU doesn't make one iota of difference to workers rights. It's certainly my point.
@monde - we don't have a figure and whilst the government has that information they won't say and Leave cannot ask. My gut feel is its heavily weighted to employment prospects which are better in the South East. I think they're is a North South divide issue being exacerbated as people form the Midlands/North are reluctant to move South for work which is being taken by immigrants prepared to travel and live very humbly. I do not think this is a healthy dynamic
So when do we start the sweepstake ? Really hard to call but I am going for
[b]56/44 Leave[/b]
Has the EU/Gov ever drawn up (working) plans on how to manipulate market forces on immigration?
Yes, I believe there was a plan drawn up in Brussels a few years back. After years of deliberation a strategy was drawn up of where to place new immigrants to the U.K.
A map of the U.K. was produced and the whole map was filled in by a thick marker pen. They pointed to it and said 'that's where we will put them.'
That's pretty much it . . .
i have some thoughts on this that i would like to share. i consider these conflicted thoughts, i would rather vote remain but i am currently out.
There is a rising tide of far right sympathy and popular support for extreme right wing political parties in europe: switzerland, germany, holland, france and in a lot of the former east. a lot of eu power is centred around germany which is conservative and sees the new right stealing its votes like here in the UK where the tories fear UKIP and the like stealing their support. In addition, left wing parties in southern europe are being pitted against the centres of european political power because they are having debt measures forced on them to 'help' their economies, which means they are being forced to take on a pro-austerity political agenda. The idea that the eu is socially progressive is true and good in many cases which are listed in the thread but i worry for how long. in europe, british politics is a malign influence against what I would call the progressive agenda, we consisently, in terms of how we vote and how much money we agree to spend, are pro war, anti regulation, anti ecological/environmental measures, anti helping refugees. europe in this time of crisis, does not need us sending a right wing tory to war munger and petition against social justice.
. . .don't be silly. That's not the case. You lose credibility when you are disingenuous.
Then explain yourself more clearly.
You said of the Working Time Directive: [i]"Great, that's the way it should be"[/i] but that the fact some people aren't covered by it is [i]"an example though of how easy it can be for employers to flout the law."[/i]
Which sounds a lot like you approve of the EU directive, but are annoyed that the UK has an opt-out.
How would opting out of the EU entirely improve that?
Do you honestly believe that there are a raft of improvements to workers' rights which the Tory government is eager to implement that are currently being blocked by the EU?
The idea that the eu is socially progressive is true
I thought that might be the case but the more I look at it, and TTIP, I do not think that is the case.
Basically I am a tory voter, but after consideration thought that a socially progressive setup like the EU was the best thing for future generations, so therefore I should vote In.
I am going to vote In but I think the 'socially progressive' bit is just a complete fallacy, so I am just going for the status quo now.
[i]Which sounds a lot like you approve of the EU directive, but are annoyed that the UK has an opt-out. [/i]
IME its not just the UK that has opt-outs (to this and other policies) but other countries too, ie Netherlands.
The Far right in France hasn't gained any ground in the last few years. At the last regional election they gained zero seats.
Can't believe some people think that IDS, Gove and Boris are going to improve low paid workers conditions.
A map of the U.K. was produced and the whole map was filled in by a thick marker pen. They pointed to it and said 'that's where we will put them.'
That's pretty much it . . .
How does UK immigration compare to other EU countries?
And are you talking about normal EU Article 45 "Free movement of workers" or are you talking about refugees and asylum seekers?
I thought that might be the case but the more I look at it, and TTIP, I do not think that is the case.
Basically I am a tory voter,
The EU has effectively blocked TTIP (so far). If it was down to our government we'd have adopted it already.
The EU has effectively blocked TTIP (so far)
the member states of the EU have blocked it, but it was the EU that thought it was a good idea to come up with it and obviousl agreed with the ideas encapsulated in it.
So when do we start the sweepstake ? Really hard to call but I am going for56/44 Leave
So you think Leave will have 44%?
Strange! I had the impression you were an outer, so not confident then?
So when do we start the sweepstake ? Really hard to call but I am going for56/44 Leave
well consider pretty much all the arguments are terrible, i think that is the only productive way for this threat to continue! 😆
61/39 in win.
I moved out of London a couple of years ago back home to the Peak District and the one thing that strikes me is the fear culture people seem to have of migrants and foreigners even though there are non here!
I can't provide any numbers but I would say it's precisely those frightened people who are likely to vote out, despite immigration from the EU being a tiny issue. It's not the baby boomers. I am one, I know lots and have only come across 1 leaver.
So when do we start the sweepstake ? Really hard to call but I am going for
56/44 Leave
Check Paddy Powers odds before you place your bets.
@ grahamS
Then explain yourself more clearly.
It was clear enough.It was clear enough to Ernie_Lynch who i am in agreement with on this matter ,if he doesn't mind me saying. .
Do you honestly believe that there are a raft of improvements to workers' rights which the Tory government is eager to implement that are currently being blocked by the EU?
Is this really a serious question? Or an insult?
It's a rather pompous and patronising tired argument to assume those that will vote leave are trusting Johnson , Gove etc. to champion rights for the working class. That's silly but purposeful.
The argument is that EU employment law is a pretty weak incentive to stay in the EU, and for all the oft stated reasons, we want rid of the EU then take it from there.
Yes, I believe there was a plan drawn up in Brussels a few years back. After years of deliberation a strategy was drawn up of where to place new immigrants to the U.K.
A map of the U.K. was produced and the whole map was filled in by a thick marker pen. They pointed to it and said 'that's where we will put them.'
That's pretty much it . . .
Any proof to go with that conspiracy theory of yours?
Or is it just your opinion....
GrahamS - MemberThe EU has effectively blocked TTIP (so far).
Why do people feel the need to lie ?
The EU hasn't "blocked" TTIP. TTIP is specifically a deal which the EU is actively negotiating with the US.
Although most of it is in secret here is the report from the European Commission of the 13th round of negotiations.
@ cchris2lou
Can't believe some people think that IDS, Gove and Boris are going to improve low paid workers conditions.
If you think people think that, then it's you that's not that bright.
the member states of the EU have blocked it, but it was the EU that thought it was a good idea to come up with it and obviousl agreed with the ideas encapsulated in it.
Governments have lots of silly ideas. It's whether they make it to the the books that counts.
If we were out of Europe we would have signed it already. Cameron is one of the main figures pushing for TTIP ratification in Europe.
For me the fact that it is being blocked and watered down is a good example of the EU working well.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/04/david-cameron-political-courage-ttip-trade-deal
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/19/cameron-accepts-ttip-amendment-to-mollify-rebel-tory-mps
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/what-is-ttip-and-why-does-cameron-want-to-sign-the-biggest-trade-agreement-in-history-10247456.html
seosamh77 - Member61/39 in win.
I'd go with that, think it will be less close than imagined when the undecided vote and some planned out voters get the heebie-jeebies about a totally unknown future
Any proof to go with that conspiracy theory of yours?
Or is it just your opinion...
The proof is in the pudding.
[i]@ cchris2lou
Can't believe some people think that IDS, Gove and Boris are going to improve low paid workers conditions.
[b]If you think people think that, then it's you that's not that bright. [/i][/b]
Are you serious? The UK has an appalling rate of inequality and child poverty considering the wealth we have in this country. The recent politicians have not made it much better to date...why are they going to be changing their personal agendas/priorities now? Or maybe the issue is how we are defining 'improve low paid workers'. I'm going to guess my definition is different to many others.
I am voting in one reason being to stop or fundamentally change TTIP. I reckon there is a better chance of this within the EU, not because the EU will oppose TTIP, but because some of the member states will. Our own tory government are very unlikely to oppose TTIP or a post Brexit equivalent.
Why do people feel the need to lie ?
The EU hasn't "blocked" TTIP.
It can't go through without all 28 states and the European Parliament ratifying it.
Some EU states are refusing to ratify it. Most notably France.
I'd call that "effectively blocked (so far)"
Although most of it is in secret here is the report from the European Commission of the 13th round of negotiations.
Exactly. 13 rounds of negotiations. Over three years. If everyone agrees with it and it hasn't been blocked then what exactly are they negotiating?
For me the fact that it is being blocked and watered down is a good example of the EU working well.
FFS the whole TTIP idea came from the EU.
It's been "blocked" and "watered down" have you gone loopy?
It's very much alive.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/be91f3ca-273c-11e6-8b18-91555f2f4fde.html#axzz4CIqfj4iW
I say the result will be Remain 55.3% Leave 44.7%
Whatever the outcome, I think the tory party in it's current guise has had it. For many tory voters seeing Cameron sharing a stage with Corbyn was a step too far.
If the 'Vote Out' politicians want to capitalise on this referendum they will see that a large 'out vote' percentage could in theory take a party to victory in 4 years time.
Core Labour supports will never tory and vice versa.
Maybe a rebranded UKIP / new political party could make serious ground if they were smart over the next few years.
[quote="wheel2wheel"]You've got the wrong end of the stick . . .oh the irony. Where do you get your EU/immigration facts from? Daily Mail, UKIP or Boris?
. .
oh the irony. Where do you get your EU/immigration facts from? Daily Mail, UKIP or Boris?
More faux outrage, the Daily Mail is complete junk, so no thanks.
Will be expecting you lot to break out into Merkel youth songs soon . .
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/21/waste-cash-leavers-in-out-land-subsidie?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=178550&subid=11255125&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2 ]The shocking waste of cash even leavers won’t condemn[/url]
I am voting in one reason being to stop or fundamentally change TTIP. I reckon there is a better chance of this within the EU, not because the EU will oppose TTIP, but because some of the member states will. Our own tory government are very unlikely to oppose TTIP or a post Brexit equivalent.
my thoughts also.
Sorry I can't read the FT article ernie, it's behind their paywall. Can you summarise or give a free alternative?
It's been "blocked" and "watered down" have you gone loopy?
It's very much alive.
Yes it is. And I'm sure some agreement will eventually be reached.
But as you said yourself it has been forced through 13 rounds of negotiations and amendments, including our own amendment on the NHS.
We were able to do this because the size of the EU market gives us a relatively strong negotiating position.
If we were outside the EU then I think we'd have a much weaker negotiating position and our Yankophile government would have happily signed us up for whatever non-EU equivalent the US proposed.
So for me that's an overall plus point to the EU.
(and yes I agree that the secret nature of the trade negotiations is a minus point. But then I'm not sure how often details of UK international trade agreements are made public during the negotiation stages either)
I thought I remembered wheel2wheel (ironic name considering their arguments) of old, but they've only been here since the start of the referendum debate (April) and 4/5 threads they've posted on are political / referendum related.
Who are you W2W? I will return the favour if you care who I am.
FFS the whole TTIP idea came from the EU.It's been "blocked" and "watered down" have you gone loopy?
It's very much alive.
really, so it was singed up in 2015, as planned?
or this year? -
no
now, its supposed to be 2017, but its been admitted that is now very unlikely
Well John Major pretty much sums up my feelings on the blatant lies being peddled by the out camp
[i]Now, if our nation does vote to leave tomorrow, we must respect their decision. But if they vote to leave on the basis of half-truths and untruths and misunderstandings, then pretty soon the gravediggers of our prosperity will have some very serious questions to answer. They will have to account for what they have said and done. But that will be of no consolation. For we will be out, out for good, diminished as an influence upon the world, a truly Great Britain shrunk down to a little England, perhaps without Scotland, perhaps with a grumpy Wales, and certainly with a Northern Ireland divided from the south by the border controls that would then be the edge of the European Union. That is not how our island story should go.[/i]
In the event of us leaving, then a lot of people are going to realise very very quickly that they've been conned. That it was all built on lies, and that President Boris can't deliver any of the things he promised. And that he was well aware that he couldn't when he stood there and made those promises.
But by that point it'll be too late. The damage already done. And we'll have sacrificed our childrens futures on the alter of his enormous ego, ans monsterous sense of entitlement. Not that he'll give a ****, of course
Streets of London alive with Referendum chat engagement is high. Market stall Fruit and Veg seller is leave as where the lads fitting some new telecom cables in the street.
@igm
Just been reading the bike related stuff for a long time but not signed up.
It's not serious stuff, just seems like an echo chamber reading the political stuff here.
All meant in good spirit.
