I was a vote outer, but decided I am going to join the masses and vote to remain. I think it will be great fun seeing how it all pans out over the next 5 - 10 years. Cameron is going to reform Europe, control immigration ... and as to Turkey joining and that ridiculous rumor regarding an EU army.
I think the UK economy will go from strength to strength by staying in the EU. The member states are all doing really well so we can hopefully have a slice of the cake too 🙂
hh45. You're being sarcastic surely? the financial markets rarely get it wrong? Where were you in 2008. But they know they'll get bailed out so they don't care if they get it wrong - they're covered either way.
That's my thinking too. Brexit lot have made an awful lot of promises that they know they can't conceivably keep. On account of their entire campaign being based on a pack of lies.
Never stopped you voting Labour...
History has shown us that people of their disposition, prone as they are to blatant hysterical lying, with no care for the consequences, Continue to unashamedly detract attention with further whopping lies, and desperately look for people to blame. Minorities come in very very handy there. And since you've based your entire campaign on xenophobia and racism, well that's the obvious way to go....?
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Vote Leave
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The economy wouldn't implode with Brexit - it would do fine. short term volatility yes but not anything worse. markets are always jumping around and apart from an oil shock or similar it doesn't have much impact on us.
============oops, changed our mind and opened it again==================
enjoyed Ruth Davidson in that debate, played it very well
flanagaj - Member
Cameron is going to reform Europe, control immigration ... and as to Turkey joining and that ridiculous rumor regarding an EU army.
Cameron will no longer be PM so there is no chance he is to reform EU.
He will end up as motivation speaker and perhaps consultant to large organisations on trade ...
Also if PM Cameron is around it will be the EU that reforms the BritLand PM Cameron not the other way round. Remember those in EU will gang-bang PM Cameron coz that's the nature of things.
Finally the reason is simple BritLand has weak leaders.
hh45. You're being sarcastic surely? the financial markets rarely get it wrong? Where were you in 2008. But they know they'll get bailed out so they don't care if they get it wrong - they're covered either way.Sorry, I meant usually right in terms of getting election results correct; e.g. Scottish referendum
Bonners, chill, not that bad probably more likely to see an Argentine emulation though, given the state of our navy, more likely to be post-millennial sabre rattling about Gibraltar rather than an embarrassing early 80s invasion.
Taking all the nonsense aside, I don't think there are any winners in this.
I see leave as a step into the unknown and remain as a hope for the status quo with the hope of getting scraps from the European table to better ourselves.
I think that if we do remain, we need to fully embrace Europe, adopt the euro and stop sitting on the fence picking and choosing which policies we agree with.
But if we leave, we need to elect officials who can be compassionate, selfless and continue with the principles of which the EU was formed without all the negatives.
Why cant the original 9 members of the EU remains just 9? Do people actually learn from history?? How many empires fall down in its own weight expansion? ..ok,might not be relevant ..just saying 😐
adopt the euro
Are you mental? That would be enough to swing me to the other side.
As it is, the EU paid for the pond on my parents farm, so vote remain for awesome ponds.
I think the UK economy will go from strength to strength by staying in the EU. The member states are all doing really well so we can hopefully have a slice of the cake too
Not sure it's true to say that the member states are all doing really well. Unless this is sarcasm, and we're talking about a cake made from dust and ashes.
I see Vote Leave caught out lying AGAIN twice today
Are they really that desperate ?
Still torn. My thoughts had been that out would be more likely to lead to a reformed EU which we could then join.
However, current state of the nation leads me to question whether Rejoin could ever win a vote against Stay Out.
This makes me think better off in, where at least there is the hope of one day being a part of a reformed EU!
whatnobeer - Member
adopt the euro
Are you mental?
How can the EU model work with halfway-house members?
People say it is selfish to leave but is it not selfish to remain and make demands only to favour the UK?
So the counter argument- how are young people/people in the lowest working class supposed to find work with increasing competition to jobs?
Why are remain shouting and shouting over? Unstable idiots shout down people.
I spent 9 months out of work when I was 29. I ended up taking a job in France. I got 9 months out of that and got a call about a job in Mannheim Germany, where incidentally, I met my fiennce.
Absolutely great this EU business.
I spent 9 months out of work when I was 29. I ended up taking a job in France. I got 9 months out of that and got a call about a job in Mannheim Germany, where incidentally, I met my fiennce.
what if you already had a family and weren't so mobile, perhaps having bought your home?
This whole mobility thing is just not good for lower skilled workers unless you are condemming them to a life of exploitation at the hands of corporations/capitalism and perpetual renting as they have to chase jobs.
And I am a lifelong tory voter who will never vote labour, but it seems to me that this EU thing is even worse ultimately.
Apart from anything, countries like Turkey aren't even in Europe.
The economy wouldn't implode with Brexit - it would do fine.
Well I'm glad that's cleared up.
Still torn. My thoughts had been that out would be more likely to lead to a reformed EU which we could then join.
What? You think they would take us back? It was hard enough getting in the first time.
Remember those in EU will gang-bang PM Cameron coz that's the nature of things.
not sure that's gonna be the case, a government could still start the exit process I think without needing a referendum. If we vote remain and then the EU start screwing us around and the people take note, the next government could easily put the exit mandate in their campaign and exit us at the next election, could they not?
A few days ago I was concerned that Leave might win, but now it seems to me that they are running on empty - just the usual Johnson lies and Leadsome saying "take back control" every time she opens her mouth. In a way it echoes the discussion on here - Jamba never answering THMs questions and sounding ever more shrill and vacant repeating the old discredited slogans over and over. Of course the usual bigots will vote Leave, and there are some who will make a principled choice based on the democratic deficit in the EU, but I don't think Leave will sway enough undecided normal people to win. We shall see!!
spent 9 months out of work when I was 29. I ended up taking a job in France. I got 9 months out of that and got a call about a job in Mannheim Germany,
Aye, thats definitely what we need more of
There is No Will!TurnerGuy - Member
Remember those in EU will gang-bang PM Cameron coz that's the nature of things.
not sure that's gonna be the case, a government could still start the exit process I think without needing a referendum. If we vote remain and then the EU start screwing us around and the people take note, the next government could easily put the exit mandate in their campaign and exit us at the next election, could they not?
The problem with BritLand is weak leadership.
The current BritLand PM will only be there for another 3 years or so then he will become motivation speaker or consultant ...
The replacement PM might divide the country ...
The opposition leadership (JC not Jesus Christ) is simply hell bend on creating new Red Army. Absolutely dated.
The Stewart opposition leadership such as the Kinnock will only use it to forward their own purse ... I mean they are part of political dynasty from Denmark to UK ... what will is there to oppose EU when they are the elites themselves while the Welsh people struggle to find answer to their lives.
Even Hilary Benn waits for the dust to settle before daring to stick his head out in fear of the chop if moving forward at the wrong time ...
The minority leadership just want to become rock stars and celebrities with hardly any substance to lead ... more like divide.
Where are the BritLand leadership?
Chewkw - you are Katie Hopkins and I win my £5.
Apart from anything, countries like Turkey aren't even in Europe.
WHAT? Haven't you been watching Eurovision? I will have you know that Turkey is very much in Europe, as is Israel. Oh, and Australia too
they could as we a re soverign but it would be very complicated for a number of reasonsIf we vote remain and then the EU start screwing us around and the people take note, the next government could easily put the exit mandate in their campaign and exit us at the next election, could they not?
1) they wont have an actual majority of voters
2) Scotland will demand a referendum
Its just not likely to happen unless UKIP win and that is not going to happen
Also worth noting the overwhelming majority of MPs are remain so they may not even be loyal to the party - ie a free vote in parliament to leave wont win and neither might a whipped one
DrJ - nice to be on the same side for a change 😉
I am currently on a golf tour, 36 holes each day so not time for news, Internet, STW etc. It is remarkably refreshing to be away from the crap of the debate - just had dinner in a wonderful little people French bistro in Devon. We all felt v European.
Spilt feeling on vote though - all of us INers but with different views on outcome, I still think that the quiet minority are Iners and that common sense will prevail, but that is not the consensus view here.
Two days to go - only 18 holes tomorrow and back in time to vote!!!!!
This whole mobility thing is just not good for lower skilled workers unless you are condemming them to a life of exploitation at the hands of corporations/capitalism and perpetual renting as they have to chase jobs.
Sorry - the low skilled have to stop being low skilled... Globalisation, not the EU, demands it. That means that out UK politicians have to sort out education and training (no EU interference there - just Gove 😉 )
Wilson's "White heat of technology" speech was 53 years ago, but we still aren't equipping our school leavers for our post industrial world where there are no well paid jobs for life. My son did his last GCSE exam today. Despite attending a relatively good school, he reckons over half just don't give a fwk.
Sorry, EU immigration, Polish plumbers, Romainian cleaners etc - just an excuse for many.
This whole mobility thing is just not good for lower skilled workers unless you are condemming them to a life of exploitation at the hands of corporations/capitalism and perpetual renting as they have to chase jobs.
are you saying if we leave the EU that benign capitalism will sweep our nation and suddenly the least skilled in our society will get a good deal?they will still just get the minimum wage and not be able to afford housing. None of this is the fault of the EU or migrant. We are blaming the wrong people and the people we should blame are leading both campaigns.
Their treatment stinks to think leaving the EU will make any difference at all to this is naive.
WHen tories makes this arguments its deceptive BS like saving the NHS
Chewy - us Brits are suspicious of strong leaders... They tend to lead folks to dark corners where we'd prefer not to follow. Cromwell was probably ours, and since then history has had the peoples of these islands having to put down our work tools and get involved in sorting out other country's "strong leadership" problems...
(And that's way more than enough jingoistic tripe from me)
rkk01 - Member
Chewy - us Brits are suspicious of strong leaders... They tend to lead folks to dark corners where we'd prefer not to follow. Cromwell was probably ours, and since then history has had the peoples of these islands having to put down our work tools and get involved in sorting out other country's "strong leadership" problems...(And that's way more than enough jingoistic tripe from me)
You need a strong leader but not a leader you worship if you get my drift.
Slight distraction ...
I remember mentioning Cromwell to my Irish volleague after watching the historical channel and I got an ear full of swearing ... so funny. She was not swearing at me but Cromwell. 😆
That means that out UK politicians have to sort out education and training
what if they are not too bright - the Gamma, Delta and Epsilon classes ?
Are they just screwed then ?
I seem to remember listening to a debate where business people were praising the Gove effect and saying they were starting to see better educated applicants.
Sorry, polish plumbers, etc are not the problem, the problem is that if we already have enough plumbers, then flooding the market with plumbers just means that plumbers have to start working for f-all, which might be OK if you are living cheaply in a country temporarily but if you are trying to support a home and family then you have problems.
But there aren't enough of other trades and, for example, trying to get a builder to even come round and give a quote is difficult. So we need more builders, so we let them in under the 'points' system as we now we have a shortage, so we are managing our society and protecting the local workers.
But with plumbers and builders we are also talking of fairly mobile skills.
What if you assemble cars as a job, and then the company movs to Turkey, like the Ford example. What do you do now as assembling cars is not really a mobile skillset?
The EU just seems to be an extension of globalisation, especially if you look at TTIP.
are you saying if we leave the EU that benign capitalism will sweep our nation and suddenly the least skilled in our society will get a good deal?
if people get hacked off enough with the current government and vote another party in, then maybe. And that government will have a lot more scope to effect changes.
For instance if Corbyn got in, god forbid, then he might decide to nationalise the railways as he thinks it is good for the country as it is part of its infrastructure. And he would be able to do it if we leave, but if we stay he can't because of EU rules.
And TTIP itself has enough in it to indicate that the NHS is doomed, except that the EU have had to explicity specify that health services are safe. But what about all the other public services? I suppose they are fair game for destruction ?
And if the EU start punishing the UK after an In vote then the will to leave may well be strong enough at the next election - imagine the ammunition Boris would have to argue with - any remainers wouldn't stand a chance.
And the SNP might also find it more difficult to garner support to stay if the EU took any vindictive action.
what if they are not too bright - the Gamma, Delta and Epsilon classes ?
Are they just screwed then ?
Intelligence isn't as important as attitude - there are plenty of examples of successful people who are not academically "bright". The rest - well cruise through school, don't give a shit, regard ignorance as a virtue and vilify any kid who has some get up and go (subjects, sports, music, extra curricular).
Any kid that shows what they can do gets cut down by their peers. Nothing to do with the EU, nothing to be solved by target driven education problems. This is a good old fashioned British hang up. What's needed to solve it is inspiration and self belief. It's a fear of failure and lack of self confidence issue. Trouble is, 10 yrs after school they realise there in a shit spot with no way out
turner guy you are nearing the point where you make Jamby look lucid and fact based
Perhaps he lacks your skills of ridiculing two people in one go without saying anything useful or constructive.
Jamba never answering THMs questions
I answered his question repeatedly, he didn't like the answer. Or more accurately he thought my answer was not worthy of his question.
@welshfarmer - crude anecdotal survey on farm signs would be similar in Hampshire 80/20 leave/remain and the farming person I spoke to in the Lake District suggested the same there. Whilst the general public may assume they are happy as they "get money" the farmers are generally fed up with the EU meddling.
As Boris said tonight there are (probably) 200 million people in the EU who'd like to get out and more than that who would like a referendum
On Scotland, the SNP had two years to make their arguments including factoring the possibility of a UK EU exit. Voters, I imagine, took that fully into consideration. So the scenario was covered. At least if there was one now Salmond would not even have to be asked the currency question as with the UK out of the EU Scotland would have to take the euro and quite probably immediately.
[quote=ernie_lynch ]Perhaps he lacks your skills of ridiculing two people in one go without saying anything useful or constructive.
Thanks but, as that post shows, I am forever in your shadow in the sarcastic pithy put downs
I answered his question repeatedly,
You missed out avoided in that sentence
he didn't like the answer.
there was nothing to like or dislike
Or more accurately he thought my answer was not worthy of his question.
You really do struggle with data don't you
Everyone knows you avoided answering his questions repeating things like that is just odd- was that polite enough ernie?
Thanks but, as that post shows, I am forever in your shadow in the sarcastic pithy put downs
Well generally when I take the piss out of someone I like to include something vaguely constructive.
Still, TurnerGuy might not be at our more advanced level of pisstaking.
Although I think you have much to learn grasshopper.
A question if I may.
There was a fair bit of handbags between our resident financial gurus about the UK's exposure to Eurozone debt and contributions to Eurozone bailouts. I accept THM's stance that the UK isn't currently obliged to contribute anything to any future bailouts. However, the way I read it is the "guarantee" that Cameron obtained relates specifically to 'non-Eurozone' countries and not to the UK in particular. So if we joined the Euro, which is a distinct possibility should a Remain vote prevail*, our status as a non-Eurozone country is nullified and the barrier between us and Eurozone financial crises is instantly removed.
Is this correct?
*The Maastricht Treaty only means we're not obliged to join, not that we never will. Otherwise why would the coalition government of 2010 need to promise that we wouldn't join the Euro before the 2015 election?
