Apologies for the omission. Not all of leave is racist , some is and some is not. I dont think its helpful, in general, to call leave racist nor is it helpful to deny its there for at least some of the supporters/campaigners.
Tory MP (Jenkin?) on Ch4 News tonight was pushed on this - and he admitted that he found the UKIP poster racist. Quite a thing to say on camera, and it only came out after the Labour MP clarified that she wasn't calling him racist, just elements that had attached to the Brexit side of the campaign
Have you considered addressing the point that has been made- he never claimed that straw man- rather than making your own point?
No, I'm more interested in making my own point. But thanks for the suggestion.
rkk01 - Member
chewkw - genuinely trying to be helpful here. Sounds like someone is bullshitting your mates. AFAIK EU influence on our immigration policy / controls is limited to the free movement of EU citizens. If your friends are non-EU then I can only see that the issues they are having are with UK immigration, not EU
Thanks dude. I do not know whose policy that was coz that was several years ago. Anyway, they are home now ...
From your list only two nationalities might have "problems" ...
American
Iraqi
The rest are from EU or ancestral related to UK so naturally have rights to work here once ancestral links are proven. Even for the American or Iraqi if they can prove ancestral links they are in ...
Several companies not happy with Vote Leave using them in it's leaflets. Nissan taking them to court. Oops.
Cmon ninfan enlighten me then..,.
We both know that the widely misquoted BOE study doesn't say what you boys claim it does. Try another source.....
It's a central theme in your thesis so there must be loads of evidence to back it up...no really
Pleasure THM
[i]Not surprisingly, the results show that there are clear differences, in the impact of immigration on wages, across occupations. The static results suggest that the [u]statistically significant negative effects of immigration on wages are concentrated among skilled production workers, and semi/unskilled service workers.[/u] In the latter cases, the coefficients indicates that a 10 percentage point rise in the proportion of immigrants working in semi/unskilled services — that is, in care homes, bars, shops, restaurants, cleaning, for example — leads to a 1.88 percent reduction in pay.
What should we make of this finding? Our earlier investigation into the facts about immigration unveiled that low-skill occupations, such as semi-unskilled services, had witnessed the largest increases in immigration in recent years. If immigrants in these occupations earn less than natives, the 1.88 percent negative impact of immigration on wages reported above could simply reflect compositional changes within the occupation, towards a higher share of (lower paid) immigrants. The compositional effect will be determined by the wage differential between immigrants and natives within occupations.16 A simple hourly wage equation suggests that, in semi/unskilled services, immigrants earn 5.4 percent less than natives (Table 6).17 In other words a 10% rise in immigration alone, would lead to a 0.54 percent fall in wages — that is the size of the compositional effect. [u]It is striking that the compositional effect is small when compared to the large impact of 1.88 percent reported above. From this we conclude that the impact of immigration on wages in semi/unskilled services is much larger than can be accounted for by purely compositional effects, suggesting that the vast majority of this effect refers to the impact on native workers.[/u]
[/i]
Don't stop there.....and......?
Just back from pub watching the game, just confirmed two new Leavers, happy days.
Interesting NHS story from someone on the inside, many EU workers are not the best choice as visa application process and particularly visa duration (eg lasts only 3 years) means its easier to hire from EU. EU thus encouraging substandard hiring via protectionism. This person is voting Leave.
So we have now had 4 people post the same Prof video (with note that last poster acknowledged it may be a duplicate). Shows how much attention Remainers are actually paying
TMH all those vote Leavers who believe uncontrolled immigration is an issue don't have to justify their view with internet links etc. Thats their view - full stop. If people want to pursude them otherwise then the burden of proof is on them. Clearly they've failed as people are firm in their view and intention to vote Leave.
As for the "why are we even haiving the referendum" ? How extraordinarily anti-democratic and patronising that statement is. We absolutely should have a Referendum on such issues whixh are vital to the country. We should have more such votes on important issues, the notion that everything should be delegated to Parliament is bizarre.
TMH all those vote Leavers who believe uncontrolled immigration is an issue don't have to justify their view with internet links etc. Thats their view - full stop. If people want to pursude them otherwise then the burden of proof is on them. Clearly they've failed as people are firm in their view and intention to vote Leave.
Fair point but as remain supporters can find a heap of info that makes the claims bs or insignificant then perhaps you could enlighten us with some good facts.
If not I'll go with the "view" that you are sat there with your finges in your ears going "lalalalalalalalalallala" while watching a sideshow of farages best Alan partridge moments from the battle of the Thames.
all those vote Leavers who believe uncontrolled immigration is an issue don't have to justify their view with internet links etc. Thats their view - full stop
You remind us daily how its not important to have views that are factually accurate or supported by the evidence hece why you repeat the lie of uncontrolled.
jambalaya - MemberJust back from pub watching the game, just confirmed two new Leavers, happy days.
Are you sure they weren't thinking "FFS, how can we get this man to stop?" ?
The STW Remainers in a majority here, so therefore feel it's fair game to gang up on others with smart ass comments and generally baseless insults.
Pathetic.
No wonder they are voting to remain, it's synonymous with their weak mentality.
Pathetic.No wonder they are voting to remain, it's synonymous with their weak mentality.
Trying to be ironic?
Honestly we just want some of the magic proof or evidence that people are smoking. Every time a claim is made there seems to be either no evidence or evidence that contradicts it. YOu must forgive us all for just wanting to know the truth, maybe if we all did we might be considering voting out too.
oh and don't confuse ernie with the remain side....
Interesting NHS story from someone on the inside, many EU workers are not the best choice as visa application process and particularly visa duration (eg lasts only 3 years) means its easier to hire from EU. EU thus encouraging substandard hiring via protectionism. This person is voting Leave.
We should hire UK nationals, right? Only there aren't enough of them - good job the EU makes it easier to hire from abroad, huh.
Are you sure they weren't thinking "FFS, how can we get this man to stop?" ?
😀
I didn't raise the topic, it was btw we have decided to vote leave because
We should hire UK nationals, right? Only there aren't enough of them - good job the EU makes it easier to hire from abroad, huh.
I think Jambalaya's point was that being in the EU makes it hard to hire good people from outside the EU, so we end up hiring duffers from inside the EU to make up the numbers because they are easier to get.
I'm not entirely convinced though - the rules about who can come here from outside the EU are entirely our own government's choosing.
feel it's fair game to gang up on others with smart ass comments and generally baseless insults.Pathetic.
No wonder they are voting to remain, it's synonymous with their weak mentality.
It still better than the alternative vision you offer which is dumb ass comments and generally baseless insults 😉
Oh the ironing.
We should hire UK nationals, right? Only there aren't enough of them - good job the EU makes it easier to hire from abroad, huh.
Yep vote leave and make it harder to recruit anyone for the skills shortage - ie the French/Italian/Spanish/Polish Nurse has to jump through all the same hoops as the Indian one.
Also in medicine/dental etc. you need qualifications with equivalence, the EU provides that many other countries require additional training etc. my housemate is a dentist here (Oz) and was going through the hassle of working in various countries and the difficulty of not having his qualification accepted.
In previous jobs where a lot of temporary staff were used big companies pass that recruitment onto an agency to do that for them, they pick form their existing pool where they can but also advertise in case someone better arrives, it's more cost effective and efficient than having to go through the process for every person. The EU is like out agency pool, we can pull what we need from it to balance out needs very easily.
TMH all those vote Leavers who believe [b]uncontrolled [/b]immigration
Believe what?
is an issue don't have to justify their view with internet links etc
Clearly not. What a futile exercise...
That's their view - full stop. If people want to pursude them otherwise then the burden of proof is on them.
😀
Clearly they've failed as people are firm in their view and intention to vote Leave.
Blame others for the ignorance of the Xenophobes, no really....say that to the anti-Semites in the Labour Party.
As for the "why are we even haiving the referendum" ? How extraordinarily anti-democratic and patronising that statement is. We absolutely should have a Referendum on such issues whixh are vital to the country. We should have more such votes on important issues, the notion that everything should be delegated to Parliament is bizarre.
Did anyone mention burden of proof? The absurd and shameful nature of the VL campaign explains why referendums are not always what they are cracked up to be. (The delay in investment and uncertainty created so far is bad enough. )
TMH all those vote Leavers who believe uncontrolled immigration is an issue don't have to justify their view with internet links etc. Thats their view - full stop. If people want to pursude them otherwise then the burden of proof is on them. Clearly they've failed as people are firm in their view and intention to vote Leave.
I see not much has changed durng my little 'holiday'.
From a friends FB share:
I said I’d stay out of it. I said I’d keep my opinions to myself, but I was tipped over the edge by arriving home today to find a pamphlet in my other half’s name, and on the same doormat, a lies-ridden rag in my own name.I started scribbling a response on it, which the intention of mailing it back to them, but after a few minutes listening to the sound of my own indignant breath snorting through my nostrils, I realised the only way I could expunge this fury was by battering my keyboard into submission.
Respectfully, Vote Leave, I would like to unsubscribe from future communications, and here’s why:
It is a pack of lies. Seriously, this is GCSE-level stuff. We as a country are about to take the biggest decision of several generations, one that could not feasibly be undone in my lifetime, and we’re being asked to do so on the basis of lies, half-truths, distortions and, in case that wasn’t enough to hoodwink you, a bit of old-fashioned racism to boot.
Lie #1: Over a quarter of a million people migrate to the UK every year
And over 300,000 people leave the UK every year
( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11620356/Emigration-nation-who-are-the-thousands-fleeing-Britain-each-year.html )
(but because they’re British, they’re called “Expatriots”). You can argue the toss about whether free movement of people within the EU is a good or a bad thing, but you cannot argue that it doesn’t work both ways. You can also argue the toss about whether immigration is a net good, but when a leading Leave campaigner comes out to say that immigration was only a positive until 2002 (when those nasty east Europeans were allowed in), I start to smell racism, and hear a dog-whistle.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/immigration-could-overwhelm-britain-says-pro-brexit-minister-andrea-leadsomLie #2: The EU is expanding to include Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey.
Not strictly true this one. All of the above have expressed their interest in becoming members - in Turkey’s case, as far back as the 1980s - but none are close to having full membership just yet. Yes, Turkey does have a very large population, that’s right, and yes, new members would have the same rights… including a veto on new members. Does the UK have a veto on new members?Yes, it does. Unless it leaves, when it doesn’t. See also Lie #6.
Lie #3: The EU has changed enormously since 1973
Thank you Sherlock; so have most places. I almost gave you a pass on this one, until I noticed the rather disingenuous claim about needing to prop up the Euro… erm, we’re exempt from Eurozone bailouts. Next.Lie #4: EU law over-rides UK law
You almost had me on this one, but you need to look at the small print… immigration, counter-terrorism, prisoner voting… thaey are not ECJ decisions, but ECHR decisions. And that is a totally different story. Excuse me while I go off on a tangent…What they actually want to exempt us from is the European Convention of Human Rights, membership of which is a precondition of EU membership. They would instead replace the Convention with a British version - telling called “rights and responsibilities” - which would defeat the entire principle of universal human rights that we the UK helped to forge. Namely, that regardless what the government of a particular country thinks at any given time you are entitled to be treated with dignity.
Why did we create this principle? Because about 65 years ago, one of our neighbour states changed its laws to allow itself to gas 6 million people within its territory. In doing so, they did nothing illegal but breached every standard of human decency. So after that, we decided it would be a good idea to write down that “standard of human decency” just in case anyone was in any doubt.
So if you belive Lie #4 on the basis of the examples they offer there, then you are falling for one of the bigger porkies of human history.
Lie #5: The EU costs us £350m a week
This isn’t so much a lie as a cluster-lie. It’s several lies packed into one big one. Let me break it down a little:Lie #5.1 £350m a week.
Which doesn’t count a) the rebate, b) the funds we receive in EU grants for projects we’d otherwise have to fund out of government spending.Lie #5.2 Enough to build a new hospital…
Spare me. Frankly, if you fall for this one you deserve all you get. Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling and Nigel Farage the defenders of the NHS and British public services? Despite their track records in government and / or stated public positions to the contrary?Lie #5.3 We have no control over how it’s spent
Rubbish, because…Lie #5.4 That’s decided by politicians and officials in Brussels…
Who we elect! Commisioners are appointed by member states governments, and the European Commission’s proposed laws are subject to ratification by the European Parliament, which is so democratic it actually gives anti-EU parties such as UKIP disproportionately more seats than their share of vote entitles them to. For example, in 2014 UKIP got 25% of the vote in the UK, and received 35% of the UK’s seats. In the British elections to the Holy Seat of Democracy the following year, they received 1m more votes and took home a paltry one seat.Lie #5.5 … not by the people we elect
This is not technically a lie. They should be decided by the people we elect, but the ****ers never turn up.
( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-meps-attend-the-fewest-european-parliament-votes-of-any-party-in-the-eus-28-countries-10316962.html )Lie #5.6 [On the reverse they equate this figure to £19bn a year]
£19bn a year is about 2.4% of the UK government’s annual £770bn spending. So turn that into household budgeting… imagine you earn a typical salary of £35k, meaning you take home about £2,100 a month. The equivalent would be a subscription that cost you £51.66 a month. So, on a par with your gym membership or Sky Sports subscription.Lie #5.7 We get less than half of that back
49.2 % actually. That’s worse than Spain, which just about breaks even, and certainly much worse than Poland which contributes -22%. But compared to Germany, which only gets back 39%, we’re doing pretty well. More here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_UnionLie #6 You don’t have to be a member of the EU to trade with it
First bit’s true. Switzerland’s a really bad example though. Why choose Switzerland when it undermines your argument so badly? Switzerland and Norway are part of the wider European Free Trade area, which allows them free access to the common market in return for accepting a few conditions like freedom of movement for EU citizens… which kind of undermines your racist fearmongering from Lie #1.And as for all UK firms having to obey EU rules, are these the rules you want to emancipate us from?
Lie #7 While we’re in the EU we can’t negotiate our own trade deals
Two points in response to this: 1) the USA has already said that negotiating a trade deal with the UK wouldn’t be a priority, and 2) most small businesses don’t do import / export. There you’re just re-hashing lie #6.Lie #8 There are risks in voting either way
Experts, politicians and business are divided. I’ll give you politicians, and maybe give you busin… nah, who am kidding? This is Captain Redbeard Rum’s “opinion is divided on the subject" which he clarified as "all the other Captains say it is, I say it isn’t.”Lie #9 [Special Bonus Racist Dog Whistle]
What the hell are Syria and Iraq doing on this diagram? Are they applying for EU membership too?So no, all in all, my mind’s made up, and I think you can save yourself some postage by taking me off the list.
Go anywhere nice Dr or was it one of those STW "holidays" (cough) ?
Rephrased for Ernie.... Don't let the racists/xenophobes win, vote remain 😕
At least some people aren't being complacent
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/21/mps-investigate-far-right-wake-jo-cox-killing
Fascinating the discourse around lack of democracy being part of EU. In the UK we have an unelected head of state and an unelected second chamber of parliament but I never hear anyone on here/leave politicians arguing about this too. Surely if lack of democracy was such a big deal you'd want to change the lack of it at home first?
Build bridges, not fences. I've lived my life that way and I'm not about to stop. I'm voting in because I believe in peace, justice and human rights.
But, having an eye for detail, I'm interested to know how - given we have the capacity to negotiate maybe a couple of trade deals at any given time - we're going negotiate all these supposed new ones with the rest of the world? And renegotiate all our trade with the EU? I think the total number of deals Switzerland is working on with the EU was around 120 and some of them are still ongoing... didn't they start in 1972?
How many more civil servants will we need?
I think the plan, such as it is, is to fall back on WTO rules until the rest of the World realises that they can't do without us and falls over themselves to sign trade deals with us.
rkk01 - that's a good summary of where we are with stats debate. Anything that's left to argue is pure bingo.
New Brexit trading plan leaked
[img] 
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We're going to need a bigger navy, then.
[quote=”molgrips”]You cannot just get off a plane and LOOK for work.Never said they could. They get off the plane and work.
Same for most non-EU applicants.They have to be the only applicant for a job that has previously been advertised and could not be filled by an EU citizen. At least in the case of the US they do.
You need to move from a field with massive spare capacity, to one with a massive shortage. O&G is seeing massive layoffs, and there has always been a steady stream of people moving in for the money. Where I am there is a massive shortage, locally unemployment in my field is pretty much zero, we’ve been asked to contact anyone, mates, ex uni colleagues (25 years since I’ve seen any of them) people off the street (not quite, but they are getting desperate). One of our competitors is leafleting the commuter trains. FWIW my last job has been up on the internal board for 8 months, advertised nationally/EU for 6 and open to *anyone* for 2. They’ve interviewed about half a dozen, no one adequately qualified/experienced. I’ve even posted it on my Facebook. One of the guys in our tea club is in the same boat. They’ve had to get a contractor in for his as his department dipped under minimum resource level. The contractor is bloody useless, but the best they can get. On our job board today there are about 20% of the engineering jobs that have been on longer than 3 months.For that to happen it has to be a pretty specialist role. So the fact that you see Americans, Canadians and Australians working here does not mean that it's easy - except for the young person visa for the last two iirc.
So I’m not massively surprised that chewkws mates struggle, accountants are pretty much 10 a penny unless they are in very odd sections of the industry, and recruitment to university departments is notoriously flakey. So I’m not surprised they dropped the ball.
[quote="bencooper"]We're going to need a bigger navy, then.And they'll have to get the dirty furriners to build it too.
kimbers - MemberRephrased for Ernie.... Don't let the racists/xenophobes win, vote remain
At least some people aren't being complacent
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/21/mps-investigate-far-right-wake-jo-cox-killing
I haven't got a clue wtf you are on about. Your link mentions absolutely nothing about voting remain, or even the EU.
And what do you mean by "At least some people aren't being complacent" ? Are you accusing me of being complacent about the threat of violence from neo-nazi racist thugs?
I dunno, maybe its too early in the day and I'm being daft, but can you explain in simple easy to understand terms wtf you are on about kimbers?
rkk01 - "from a friends FB share"
. . .The source of all credibility. Silly.
THM - just a little trip arranged at the last minute by a local travel agent 🙂
wheel2wheel - Member
rkk01 - "from a friends FB share". . .The source of all credibility. Silly.
have a read and a look up and tell us which one's are wrong then (with actual facts if you could)
"Just because you want to have control over immigration does not mean you are a closet racist!"
This.
Also it's hilarious that helping ourselves to the best and brightest people from poorer EU countries for the economic and cultural benefits they bring us is sold as the moral high ground!
. . .The source of all credibility. Silly.
Whereas the IFS, BoE, OECD etc etc .... ??
"Just because you want to have control over immigration does not mean you are a closet racist!"This.
[img] 
[/img]
drop the closet.
So if the anti-immigration side aren't racist, why exactly do we need to curb immigration? When the statistics show that it is not a burden?
drop the closet.
Yep. It's more likely to mean that you're a raging racist who is calling on nazi thugs to murder innocent people in the street.
So you better vote Remain to prove that you're not.
Others complaining about cancelled operations. As if that's the EU's fault? **** hell.
But, but... if we weren't paying into the EU we could build a new hospital every week. Yeah, like you would.
What they actually want to exempt us from is the European Convention of Human Rights
Yes I spotted this one in the Leave leaflet - advocated by a former head of MI6. "Waterboarding? OK that's one board each, queue up on the left".
Build bridges, not fences. I've lived my life that way and I'm not about to stop. I'm voting in because I believe in peace, justice and human rights.
+1
How many more civil servants will we need?
Ah, jobs for the boys?
"have a read and a look up and tell us which one's are wrong then (with actual facts if you could)"
Cliché laden made for FB virtue signalling dross, straw man arguments , poor attempt to bypass Godwin's law.
Insufferable dross.
Yes it contains some facts, that make a compelling case for leave.
. .The source of all credibility. Silly.
Generally true but that is well argued
Are you able to negate the points or do you just wish to slag off the platform it was presented on?
New hospital you say? Could get you one of those, know a bloke who knows a bloke...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiona_Stanley_Hospital
just a snip at $2bn Australian
So about 1bn UK shall we devide that by [s]350 Million[/s] 100 Million and see how many weekly insatllments that is 😉
