[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

@Midnighthour the main political parties Labour, Lib Dem and Tories have all recognised immigration is an issue amd have had years to address it and make a case publically. They've failed totally. People are voting based on what they see in front of their noses. They are giving little weight to the press and ceratinly to Government and politicians. The Government has been caught out as its failed on its manifesto/election pledge target (now its an "aspiration" BS bingo terminololgy there) its lied about the number of immigrants deliberately massaging figures lower and ots not rocket sciemce to see the pressure it puts on housing and services which are already stretched.

As I have said repeatedly we have less of an issue with immigration than elsewhere in Europe, its not an isolated UK issue

We cannot ever control migration unless we equalise living standards across the whole EU.

Was that his quote?

I can only find "free movement of labour means you have to balance the economy to improve living standards and conditions..."

That's a complete misinterpretation. Equalise or improve? Contextually it's not even in the same ball park.

Also get this apparently just a few miles from me there migrants living in Sherwood Forest, and threatening people with knives etc. They also commute to Sports Direct. Daily Express.

I've never seen them despite riding for 25 years in Sherwood Forest.

I feel concern that a politician cannot adequately separate a EU membership campaign from who will win the next UK Election

If it isn't someone better yell Bojo

nearly 1000 posts added since I last looked here.

has anyone actually changed their mind or is everyone just talking louder?

There are certainly pros to leaving, but they are not being discussed.

I mean, both sides are using projections and models to show what will happen, and they get different results, thats perfectly understandable. But then the exit gang just pile a load of daily mail-esque crap on top.

the main political parties Labour, Lib Dem and Tories have all recognised immigration is an issue amd have had years to address it and make a case publically.

jambalaya - Member
@Midnighthour the main political parties Labour, Lib Dem and Tories have all recognised immigration is an issue amd have had years to address it and make a case publically. They've failed totally. People are voting based on what they see in front of their noses. They are giving little weight to the press and ceratinly to Government and politicians. The Government has been caught out as its failed on its manifesto/election pledge target (now its an "aspiration" BS bingo terminololgy there) its lied about the number of immigrants deliberately massaging figures lower and ots not rocket sciemce to see the pressure it puts on housing and services which are already stretched.

As I have said repeatedly we have less of an issue with immigration than elsewhere in Europe, its not an isolated UK issue

People aren't seeing an issue with immigration, they are reading an issue with immigration, the most anti areas of the UK have very low levels of immigration.

£45

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http://www.common-market.co/

He also said we needed to improve services (NHS, housing etc) to cope. In that he is right, we should look at what we need to spend to cope and this should be part of the consideration amd debate about immigration - then we can make a proper assessment.

People aren't seeing an issue with immigration, they are reading an issue with immigration, the most anti areas of the UK have very low levels of immigration.

it might be harder to put this genie back in the bottle after the vote. Shame on you for this blatant dog whistle campaign

Read what he actually said, or see it on the Marr show. He said the way to control immigration was to equalise living standards and that was our responsibility. He also said we needed to improve services (NHS, housing etc) to cope. In that he is right, we should look at what we need to spend to cope and this should be part of the consideration amd debate about immigration - then we can make a proper assessment.

has anyone actually changed their mind or is everyone just talking louder?

Just talking louderI would say. I am happy to play along not least as others have posted some interesting stuff I missed (esp @ninfan - thanks) and my commentary on the Liverpool Prof I can link to for others as this video is doing the rounds on Social Media.

I am very sceptical about polling so have been focused more on real campaigning than being an internet warrior. There are very few votes to be won doing that.

how much of our economy is tied up with baby boomers sitting there in massive empty houses, with their fat pensions needlessly accumulating grands and grands of dead money every month

never mind immigrants and poor people

EAT THE OLD!!

have been focused more on real campaigning than being an internet warrior.

We have all the evidence we need:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/britain-first-joke_uk_5766e914e4b01fb65863a8d5

I am very sceptical about polling so have been focused more on real campaigning than being an internet warrior. There are very few votes to be won doing that.

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Branson was one of the big business people promoting Remain today. The leave side apparently dismissed his comments saying something like 'well we always knew he was pro-Europe so that means nothing'. Er, what? Of course it does - doesn't matter WHEN he became pro-Europe does it ffs? He still is.

Also apparently small business owners aren't all pro-remain. Of course not, because a lot of small business owners are just like normal people and not involved in big business.. hence the name 'small'.. dear me..

What Corbyn said - here [b]you[/b] clearly refers to the UK as he was asked about the UK having a cap on the number of migrants. Greece has no alternative than to reduce spending as no one was prepared to lend them any money at any rate other than with the support of the EU. In any case Greece is a red herring as the flow of migration from Greece is tiny. This isn't about lowering Eastern Europe's loving standards its about poor countries joining the EU

I don't think you can have one while you have the free movement of labour, and the free movement of labour means that you have to balance the economy.

"So you have to improve living standards and conditions and so that means the EU's appalling treatment of Greece is a problem.

"If you deliberately lower living standards and increase poverty in south eastern Europe, then you're bound to have a flow of people looking for somewhere to go."

Also apparently small business owners aren't all pro-remain

Majority of small businesess owners I know are Leave not least as their business is 100% domestic. Also free trade via internet just undermines them price wise. A company based in Luxembourg or Ireland has a natural advatnage as they pay very little tax so are able to set prices lower.

[b]Be happy just Vote OUT. [/b]

jambalaya - Member
Also apparently small business owners aren't all pro-remain
Majority of small businesess owners I know are Leave not least as their business is 100% domestic. Also free trade via internet just undermines them price wise. A company based in Luxembourg or Ireland has a natural advatnage as they pay very little tax so are able to set prices lower.

So pro tariffs and blocking free trade???? I am sure that will go down well when negotiating trade agreements post eu?

Hmmm, is confused.

Does this mean those countries with higher living standards (and wages) than the UK will have to ensure that the UK can join the top table? Rather than festering in mid table mediocrity......

I'm all for out then. Go on. You lot can piss off.

😉

He said the way to control immigration was to equalise living standards and that was our responsibility.

We cannot ever control migration unless we equalise living standards across the whole EU.

I still can't see equalise living standards. Just improve living standards.

I am very sceptical about polling so have been focused more on real campaigning than being an internet warrior. There are very few votes to be won doing that.

Undoubtedly because a quick google exposes jambafacts for what they are

This is well worth a watch - professor Michael Dougan, a professor of European law, lays out what would really happen (and what we don't know) about an EU exit:

One thing I hadn't appreciated - Brexit wouldn't just nullify our trading agreements with the EU, it would nullify them with absolutely every country in the World.

So Jamby, it was a page ago and it was at the end and I assume you just missed it but...

So despite the fact that immigration is a net benefit to the UK economy (ie helps pay for better services for all)
That and helping to improve the world is actually a good thing
Oh and that immigration has managed to depress wages by a massive 3 pence
Whats your point caller?
Just be grateful that there are people there paying taxes in the UK as opposed to retired baby boomers living off a housing boom.

I'm just wondering who these baby boomers are living in their vast empty houses. I mean my friends and I probably fit the generation but not that lifestyle.

I was beginning to doubt jamabalaya but chewkw has just cleared it all up there for me.

True slowoldman but when a large number of people thinking life was so much better when houses cost less than 50% of what they do now and then complain it;s the EU's fault, anyway the points on immigration stand

Aye you have barely featured on these threads

Jambawho?...

slowoldman - Member
I was beginning to doubt jamabalaya but chewkw has just cleared it all up there for me.

Slowoldman chap you are old enough to make whatever decision you wish old chap. I was intrigue or even surprised when you gave requested numbers to imply that you had not made up your mind so require numbers to justify view points. I am sorry to say if you cannot see than you truly fit my stereotype of typical Lib Dem unknown.

I have posted the details on thread 140 so read that whatever you will do those numbers say "half empty glass or half full"?

Bottom line is, as my colleague once said to me, " ... the writing is on the wall and it comes from the source ..."

Yes, EU is a trading partner due to the geographical proximity and you don't really need to say the obvious. Nothing new. We will still trade with them in whatever situation we are in. Terms and conditions are merely tit for tat so what they can do we can too. Profit is still still profit. Let the business deal with them not you. 😆

Problem is you import double from EU and there is no guarantee that will not increase or widen. BritLand have no strong industry left ... you might have the expertise but you certainly do not have something that is good enough to put up meaningful challenge. i.e. you have no strong industry to reduce the gap.

What is clear in the data is that any hostile act towards BritLand economy is also going to reflect on themselves especially the big EU members where BritLand import more from them. We are a huge market and a cash cow. If they were to apply hostile economy act against BritLand their lefties (France & Germany) govt will have to answer for that. The are walking on a tightrope now and one wrong move (hence they need to be seen as tough towards BritLand demand) they will be out.

Yes, you might think I am creating alternative ZM world but the fact is you have tried this EU thing for so long yet BritLand still have to double import then export ... where are the money coming from? Eh? That's why I said you are good at being a loan shark but for how long?

The fact is that Germany will become the industry hard land for EU whether you like it or not and Frankfurt will be the future of all finance if you are not careful. The reason is simple if all major industries are located in Germany wouldn't it make sense to have the financial hub there too?

Yes, out might create a period of adjustment but when you create alternative system, there bound to be people who will join you so rather than be Lemmings so why not try something new if the writing is on the wall?

If BritLand is to remain in EU for long term your only hope is to specialise in being Accountant and Financial/banking loan shark. But for how long? Ya, not total collapse of your tech industry but definitely insignificant.

Remain in EU is Doomed! Doomed! 😆

Look after yourself.

specialise in being Accountant and Financial/banking loan shark

We've been doing that for years so I don't that being much of a hurdle to overcome..

Majority of small businesess owners I know are Leave not least as their business is 100% domestic.

Are they? I'm sure quite a lot of them supply services to international businesses in one form or another. Turkeys, Christmas etc.

My mind was made up well before this tacky campaign started.

One thing I hadn't appreciated - Brexit wouldn't just nullify our trading agreements with the EU, it would nullify them with absolutely every country in the World.

I guess this question depends on whether or not you believe what the professor is saying but let's assume for a moment that it is the truth, this begs the question (which I asked a few pages back) of WHY THE **** ARE WE ACTUALLY HAVING THIS REFERENDUM?!

If the consequences of getting it wrong are that bad, what Government in it's right mind would even think about asking The General Public - a significant number of whom are utter cretins - something this important? I mean, do they actually have a get-out clause? Well you voted Leave but we decied that we wouldn't.

A bit like the Boaty McBoatface vote - well you voted to call it that but we decided to ignore you and name it the Sir David Attenborough instead.

WHY THE **** ARE WE ACTUALLY HAVING THIS REFERENDUM?!

I guess this question depends on whether or not you believe what the professor is saying but let's assume for a moment that it is the truth, this begs the question (which I asked a few pages back) of WHY THE **** ARE WE ACTUALLY HAVING THIS REFERENDUM?!

If the consequences of getting it wrong are that bad, what Government in it's right mind would even think about asking The General Public - a significant number of whom are utter cretins - something this important? I mean, do they actually have a get-out clause? Well you voted Leave but we decied that we wouldn't.

This has been my point all along: The referendum was promised by a Tory government looking to secure the votes of those wavering towards voting for UKIP, so they could win an election. We shouldn't be having this referendum at all.

Well, I was undecided at the start.
Have chosen to vote to stay in as the nicer smelling of two shitty sticks

All I want to know is when is campaigning going to get started again. Tragic death of the labour politician, but did it really require parliament to be recalled and campaigning to basically shut down to such an extent that ALL momentum has effectively disappeared.

Even read an article suggesting a campaign to get the referendum cancelled. FFS, this is the biggest democratic election this country has faced in the last 40 years and it should continue unreservedly.

mrlebowski - Member

specialise in being Accountant and Financial/banking loan shark

We've been doing that for years so I don't that being much of a hurdle to overcome..

slowoldman - Member
My mind was made up well before this tacky campaign started.

mikey74 - Member

Ya, try ask that Prof of EU law the reasons for BritLand double import than export, Yes!

WHY THE **** ARE WE ACTUALLY HAVING THIS REFERENDUM?!

Dave wanted to stop tory voters going to UKIP and assumed it would be a coalition so he would not have to deliver on the pledge as they would block him

Exactly this, what an crazy position to be in. Unless Cameron is REALL sly and secretly wan't brexit, he is tory afterall, it would probably suit the tory agenda. Athough that might be unlikely as Bojo will try to oust him if we brexit.

Whenever I read one of Chewkw posts I keep picturing like this.

Boaty McBoatface

Eu McEuface

Unless Cameron is REALL sly and secretly wan't brexit, he is tory afterall, it would probably suit the tory agenda.

That'll be the Tory agenda which first signed us up to the EEC and then to the Maastricht Treaty, ie the EU.

All I want to know is when is campaigning going to get started again. Tragic death of the labour politician, but did it really require parliament to be recalled and campaigning to basically shut down to such an extent that ALL momentum has effectively disappeared.

Are you for real???

[s]Tragic death of the labour politician[/s] Callous political murder of prominent Remain / refugee / ethnic minority rights campaigner

My first thoughts on Thursday were to can the referendum.

I see that Nick Griffin and Katie Hopkins have launched a diatribe against those linking Jo Cox's murder with referendum - well no, her own husband has called on people to fight the hatred (that RW hatred) that killed her.

It didn't take many hours for the BF / RW aspects to seep out into the news. To put out the statement that he did, it would seem likely that Brendan Cox already had some pretty good info on what happened 🙁

Especially as we now know that she was about to publish a paper about RW extremism...

rkk01 - Member

So, I still have two questions for a Brexit campaigners - genuinely don't know the answer and got into a "debate" on the TTIP one with a VL person in Cardiff yesterday...

1. TTIP.
So, this campaigner was telling everyone to vote Leave to save the NHS because TTIP would allow US corporates to sue EU public bodies for loss of profit. My challenge to him was to stop lying to everyone and actually explain how this might be the case

This explains it quite concisely:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

You'll want the bit about ISDSs at the bottom.
Although you'll already know about this if you knew your mate was lying...? 💡

2. Immigration / wages / competitiveness
I keep hearing (here and in the media) that wages would rise on Brexit because immigrants would not be competing for jobs. How does this work - particularly as VL also state that we will be a more competitive trading nation?

As mike has already pointed out, the wage increase would be minimal. Much like the benefits of immigration that he is also happy to point out.
And that's without taking into account that most studies only look at what people pay in and take out now, rather than the costs of paying for pensions and healthcare in the later years of their lives.

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk

If you can't be arsed to read any of that, just call me, a mongrel of predominantly EU immigrants, racist.

Of course immigration would not be a problem at all if the EU wasn't hell bent on absorbing as many (poorer) nations as possible, something I am against.

Plenty of remainers on here will poo-poo this idea, especially with the specific example of the accession of Turkey.
It is however what the EU wants.
It is why the bank of the EU lent Turkey €100,000,000 to help build the Ford production plant (whilst ours shut), to speed up their accession. It's mentioned in the EU parliamentary Q&As I've previously suggested reading, if you don't believe me.

Ps. I'm in.
For none of the reasons that any of the shouty remain BSers on here give.

With the exception of associating with racist xenophobes.
If I was worried about who I associated with I would never post on here. 😛