[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Out - The Lisbon Treaty will finish the UK off as a nation.

The UK and Ireland have a flexible opt-out from justice and home affairs measures and could choose to participate in them on a case-by-case basis.

Under the Treaty of Lisbon, the limitations on the powers of the Court of Justice and the Commission will be lifted after a transitional period of five years which will expire on 30 November 2014.

In order to avoid submitting to the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice and to enforcement actions by the Commission, the UK negotiated an opt-out which allows them the option of a block withdrawal from all third pillar measures they had previously chosen to participate in.

In October 2012 the UK government announced that it intended to exercise this opt-out and then selectively opt back into certain measures.[52]

The use of this opt-out by the UK will not affect the UK's flexible opt-out from justice and home affairs measures, or Ireland's identical opt-out.

Still out Mikey 74 for many other reasons

Fair enough, but please don't use the Lisbon Treaty as a reason: We have enough falsehoods in this debate as it is.

if i was voting on Thursday to join i would not want to enter and for that reason i am out.

We pay billions in and get millions back, lets do away with the middleman.

Lets do away with the gravy train for those such as the Kinnock Clan

was really trying to say is its not as clear cut as the Prof makes out

Its obvious we are sovereign or this vote is meaningless.

We pay billions in and get millions back, lets do away with the middleman.

Warsi has just switched teams. 😀 😀 😀
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eu-referendum-baroness-sayeeda-warsi-defects-from-leave-to-remain-a7090741.html ]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eu-referendum-baroness-sayeeda-warsi-defects-from-leave-to-remain-a7090741.html[/url]

Before our resident Hannan fanboi points it out, impressed to see him straight on the twitter within minutes disputing the definition/wording if it. (Tbf to warsi it is that indie saying 'defects' not her) Also amused to see he had six whole pages to indulge himself in the wetherspoons referemdum "magazine". (Hannan that is not ninfan) Thats two more pages than the "all the impartial objective info you need to know" mag gave the entire remain campaign. 😆

Here's the Brexit campaign's economic plan for new trade deals.

we're just a former empire clinging on to past glories and sinking into decline.

No we're not.

Warsi has to do something to get noticed, I haven't heard a peep from her in 6 months

@anokdale spot on a political club which needs our money to prop it up with far bigger demands to come

How significant are those markets?

More and more so, see this graph too (yet again 😉 ) the trend is clear, Europe is yesterdays news and the EU is about protecting those well past their sell by date and resistant to change

[img] [/img]

This attitude sums up Remain perfectly Chapeau @pondo

former empire clinging on to past glories and sinking into decline.

What you have failed to spot is we are economically, socially and politically miles ahead of the EU which is continuingly "doubling down" to attempt to disguise its failings. Every region in the world is outperforming the EU

This attitude sums up [s]Remain [/s] leave perfectly

So how do we then negotiate trade with the rest of the world when we step out the EU given the trade we have is because we're in the EU. That graph shows why we need to stay, even with its assumptions.

What you have failed to spot is we are economically, socially and politically miles ahead of the EU which is continuingly "doubling down" to attempt to disguise its failings. Every region in the world is outperforming the EU

Of course, a link is not necessary. I asked before about growth rates in 2016 and 17 but unsurprisingly got no answer. Hmmm. That chart is an awesome piece of cherry picking (is, yes a period of weaker economic performance form EU - hence the past trends) and forecasts from people who you have previously discredited in economists.

Jambas you [s]coouldnt[/s] do make it up!!!

So a few days out and maybe time for a quick recap...
The in's and out's
[img] [/img]
also adding in
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36572405

The UK's car industry, more leading businessmen, and the chairman of football's Premier League have backed the campaign to stay in the EU.
The car industry's trade body and company executives warned that leaving would increase costs and threaten jobs.
Premier League chair Richard Scudamore also backed Remain and said the 20 clubs in the top tier wanted to remain.
Vote Leave rejected the idea that leaving would hurt the car industry, instead saying it could help exports.

The group also dismissed Sir Richard Branson, and drinks giant Diageo boss Ivan Menezes proclamations of support for Remain, claiming they have already voiced pro-EU support and the latest comments were no surprise.

I fully expect the usual suspects to claim these idiots re only looking after themselves, put the UK down, don't believe in the UK etc. etc. but ask yourself it this lot reckon the best thing for their business is to be in the EU what does that mean? It means that they see themselves being more successful in the EU, employing people, creating wealth and paying taxes. It means that they would not expect that outside the EU and that the UK would take a backwards step. In the end which group would you say was more qualified to make that assesment?

Don't vote based on the quality of the campaign, don't vote based on who the current UK government is, don't vote based on lies and BS, don't vote based on fear. Take a look at the facts, read the fact checks and make your mind up.

A repost but an important one
[img] [/img]

Gowerboy - now, that kayak ad sounds interesting..? River or sea???

Also ask yourself - who benefits from you being uninformed about the EU? Who's telling you these lies and half-truths?

[img] [/img]

Edit.

So, I still have two questions for a Brexit campaigners - genuinely don't know the answer and got into a "debate" on the TTIP one with a VL person in Cardiff yesterday...

1. TTIP.
So, this campaigner was telling everyone to vote Leave to save the NHS because TTIP would allow US corporates to sue EU public bodies for loss of profit. My challenge to him was to stop lieing to everyone and actually explain how this might be the case, especially how the UK might negotiate a better deal than TTIP if we were a single small economy dealing with the US.

2. Immigration / wages / competitiveness
I keep hearing (here and in the media) that wages would rise on Brexit because immigrants would not be competing for jobs. How does this work - particularly as VL also state that we will be a more competitive trading nation?

Labour is the biggest single cost to most businesses, so how could we be more competitive with increased wages? We already have a minimum wages, with a commitment to increase that - competition from immigrants shouldn't push wages <min wage (SportDirect & Monsoon excepted?). I'm also deeply suspicious (having worked for a few) that most small business owners want out. Many (not all) of these folks are deeply self interested / selfish and wouldn't pay a penny / day's leave / maternity protection more than they absolutely had to - and then grudgingly...

(& somewhat ironic that the big business owners are accused of self-interest, but the same accusation isn't levelled at all the small business owners who generally are)

Bencooper - that really ought to go viral...!

FB linky???

2. Immigration / wages / competitiveness
I keep hearing (here and in the media) that wages would rise on Brexit because immigrants would not be competing for jobs. How does this work - particularly as VL also state that we will be a more competitive trading nation?

There is a Bank of England report that stated that immigration had a downward pressure on wages. The detail behind the headline had the figure of about 3p. So very close to No Impact at All and **** all impact.
The extrapolation of the argument being that without immigration the trend would be reversed. Thats a great leap especially for those who claim it's impossible to predict the future.

It also neglects that the UK benifits overall from EU migration and over 50% of immigrants come from Non EU Countries that we choose to let in.

What is the source for that Murdoch image bencooper?

rkk01 - it's from the Independent: http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/this-terrifying-rupert-murdoch-quote-is-possibly-the-best-reason-to-stay-in-the-eu-yet--WyMaFTE890x

Good to see that Baroness Warsi has decided that she can't support the xenophobes and racists...

VL has really given public space for the toxic views that were once not part of mainstream views. Saw a chap with extreme nazi views on his t shirt in supermarket yesterday 🙁

Anyway, from i:
[url= https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/neo-nazi-group-voices-support-jo-cox-murder-suspect-thomas-mair/ ]VL given these people "mainstream" airtime? They should be ashamed[/url]

Mikewsmith - yep, that bit I get...

I don't know how to square that away with being so much more competitive?!

Becasue they don't expect you to read the 2 claims next to each other?

Whenever someone says "don't listen to the experts", they're trying to get away with something.

Jambas you coouldnt do make it up!!!

Jeremy Corbyn. So it seems he has made his key truthful campaign contribution. At probably the most sensitve point in the whole debate he has endorsed vote Leave's main point. We cannot ever control migration unless [b]we[/b] equalise living standards across the whole EU. Think about that, he's saying its our responsibility to ensure all 500m people are as wealthy as we are.

As some Labour MP's have sad, he has lost Remain the Referendum. I never believed Corbyn's heart was in his call for Remain, perhaps as other have said thsi was deliberate sabotage

And that IS EXACTLY our responsibility. Non only 500 million Europeans but the whole of the worlds' population. Equality rather than exploitation

@welsh that's a pipedream. We can't possibly improve the wealth of the whole EU without huge cost to ourselves and over many many decades, if at all. As formthe wolrd the population of India has grown from 350m to 1 billion in less than 100 years. Thats fine and their choice but its not up to us to make them all wealthy.

We cannot ever control migration unless we equalise living standards across the whole EU. Think about that, he's saying its our responsibility to ensure all 500m people are as wealthy as we are.

To remove that reason the aspirations should be to improve the quality of life for the rest of Europe.

Apparently, Vote Leave have been lying:

"Unfortunately what we are seeing as a vision for Britain are lies and xenophobic campaigning. Why is it people like me, who are instinctively Eurosceptic, are feeling they need to leave Leave?
"Because day after day, what are we hearing? The refugees are coming, the rapists are coming, the Turks are coming."

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36572894 ]Former leave campaigner says it's all lies...[/url]

Very, very unusual for politicians to use the word "lie" - says it all really. Sarah Wollaston could stand up behind the lies either, so what does that say about Vote Leave???

We can't possibly improve the wealth of the whole EU without huge cost to ourselves and over many many decades, if at all

No? Explain that please.

The market never lies...
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36574366?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter ]FTSE rises as polls suggest switch to remain[/url]

The market never lies...

unless it's in the short term...

John Oliver sums it up rather well. It's a bit of a watch but do see it through all the way, if only to watch the song at the end.

[I]Good to see that Baroness Warsi has decided that she can't support the xenophobes and racists...[/I]

Nah, she just wants to make a headline and she's been sat on the wall waiting for one way or the other. She's obviously now decided to vote with the Remain, must be where she thinks the referendum will go and wants a job going forward.

Nah, she just wants to make a headline and she's been sat on the wall waiting for one way or the other. She's obviously now decided to vote with the Remain, must be where she thinks the referendum will go and wants a job going forward.

Or, she has decided that that "Breaking Point" poster and a seemingly politically motivated murder (both reminiscent of 1930s Third Reich) indicate that the whole Out agenda is being dragged in a very ugly direction.

I've carefully (tried anyway) not labelled the Vote Leave as being part of this, but other elements are clearly supporting an exit for very troubling reasons

"Unfortunately what we are seeing as a vision for Britain are lies and xenophobic campaigning. Why is it people like me, who are instinctively Eurosceptic, are feeling they need to leave Leave?
"Because day after day, what are we hearing? The refugees are coming, the rapists are coming, the Turks are coming."

I think this is a very poor statement. I can understand the dislike of the statements and the representatives of the Leave campaigns but the referendum is NOT about voting for those people or indeed their policies this vote is not a General Election. They are not being voted into government to rule the UK - that will be matter for the next Election.

I feel concern that a politician cannot adequately separate a EU membership campaign from who will win the next UK Election. She is right to state her position but wrong to say it cannot be separated from a Leave vote. People vote leave for all sorts of reasons, most of them not to do with slagging off others or hating people.

I feel concern that a politician cannot adequately separate a EU membership campaign from who will win the next UK Election.

People vote leave for all sorts of reasons, most of them not to do with slagging off others or hating people.

Sounds like your interpretation..

Read what he actually said, or see it on the Marr show. He said the way to control immigration was to equalise living standards and that was [b]our[/b] responsibility. He also said we needed to improve services (NHS, housing etc) to cope. In that he is right, we should look at what we need to spend to cope and this should be part of the consideration amd debate about immigration - then we can make a proper assessment.

Baroness Warsi, I've been closely involved with Leave from the start. Not once have I heard a single sentence or seen a single photo or video clip from her on the Referendum. Now she's "defected" and suddenly that's news ? Really ? Defected from where, irrelevance to news story ?

Midnighthour - Member

I feel concern that a politician cannot adequately separate a EU membership campaign from who will win the next UK Election. She is right to state her position but wrong to say it cannot be separated from a Leave vote. People vote leave for all sorts of reasons, most of them not to do with slagging off others or hating people.

Most people i have come across who want to leave state immigration, those who want to stay cite economy. There are certainly pros to leaving, but they are not being discussed.

The referendum is pointless anyway, and should NEVER have happened. Win or lose you will get a load of whinging, talk of rigged votes etc. There will be a call for a new referendum, politicians claiming that the truth hasn't come out etc.

Being blunt most people in the UK know f*** all about the EU beyond the lies that they have been fed, most people are incapable of making an informed decision.

Politicians do need to be honest about the world and stop telling people what they want to hear!