I'm sure someone mentioned 'adults are talking" earlier?
I did. Being an adult, I have the ability to accurately paraphrase.
For those of you who propose to vote out, watch the video in the link below. if you still think that leaving is a good idea, your criteria for leaving are beyond my comprehension and you probably aren't worth trying to persuade.
[url= https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/16/watch-dishonesty-industrial-scale-eu-law-expert-analyses-referendum-debate/ ]Watch the video in this[/url]
Several people talk of bureaucracy here. Some say it is their main reason for wishing to leave. We all hate bureaucracy don't we? unless that bureaucracy means rules that prevent your bike light blowing up whilst on charge then burning your house down. Anyway, despite being part of the EU at the moment, we score pretty well on keeping it under control - even compared with the countries the Exit camp seem to admire. The quote below is from a Liverpool Uni source:
Another central claim of the Leave camp is that European Union bureaucracy is “holding the UK back”. Nobody doubts that EU bureaucracy does exist. But has it really held us back? This is far from clear. To see this, let me draw on the World Bank’s authoritative governance indicators. The World Bank reports, for as many as 215 countries, an authoritative regulatory quality index. The index measures the ability of the government to formulate and implement sound policies and regulations that permit and promote private sector development. Assuming that EU membership has taken a bureaucratic toll on our economy, the indicator should have shown a deteriorating UK position over the years. This, however, has not been the case.
In 2004, the UK stood at the very impressive 97th percentile. In 2014 (last year for which data are available from the World Bank), we retained our impressive position. In fact, we were ranked above the US which went down from the 93rd percentile in 2004 to the 88th percentile in 2014. We were also ranked above Germany, which went up slightly from the 91st percentile in 2004 to the 94th percentile in 2014. How about Norway or Switzerland? BREXIT supporters often praise Norway and Switzerland as successful “survivors” outside the EU. Norway stood, in 2014, at the 92nd percentile whereas Switzerland stood in 2014, like us, at the same (97th) percentile. In short, so much for EU bureaucracy taking a (huge) toll on our economy.
gower we have a very good track record on product safety vs Europe. Just look at our electrics with earth plugs on everything.
As for the Liverpool prof's video it was posted pages back and I took the time to watch it make notes and post a responce
As for the Liverpool prof's video it was posted pages back and I took the time to watch it make notes and post a responce
Perhaps it's because he's an esteemed academic in the relevant subject area while your credentials are somewhat lacking that made most people place less emphasis on your response?
And the things you ignored, glaring by their omission.
Plugs with an earth on? Seriously is that your argument?
You never cease to amaze me with such a simplistic view of the world, with that and the clear self centered views on brexit i picture you wearing a set George's helmet, and England flag and a tied hankie round your head.
Let's all go back to the 50's when Britain was great, i mean it's not as if the world has changed much since then 🙄
gower we have a very good track record on product safety vs Europe. Just look at our electrics with earth plugs on everything.
So, what you are saying is that the EU [b]HASN"T [/b]held us back from coming up with and implementing our own standards?
Another plus for the IN campaign there, then.
For those Remainers here who have repeatedly "despaired" about the state of the UK politically and with regard to immigration attitudes should be grateful we are not like our European neighbours.
France: Front Nationale is the number 1 French party in terms of voter numbers, Le Penn will eliminate Hollande from the Presidential contest in 2017. Imagine if UKIP had the same vote here in the UK
Germany: 20-40,000 Germans where marching weekly againat the Islamification of Europe, imagine if we had the same marches in Liverpool or Manchester ?
Austria: by a whisker the anti-immigration candidate failed to win the Presidency
Holland: an anti-Islam MP is a powerful force in Dutch parliament
Poland: a right leaning government has said they will not accept refugees despite them being a Shengen member state (Poland is 98% white Christian and they do not wish that to change)
Hungary: ditto
Slovakia: will take no Muslim refugees as they have no Mosques "so Muslims won't be happy here"
Spain: racist chants are still common at football matches and where a major factor in them being eliminated as a candidate city for the 2012 Olympics
Plugs with an earth on? Seriously is that your argument?
gowers argument is his house would burn down if we left the EU as his night riding mtb lights would catch fire
@zokes as gower posted a video which we've already seen and discussed wouod suggest to me he hadn't read that part of the thread.
should be grateful we are not like our European neighbours
You'll be telling me the right wing europhobes on the continent are murdering their MPs as traitors and demanding freedom for their country next
Ok... Guilty as charged as I haven't read all 141 pages. I have a bike to ride..... Others may be in the same position and anyway, what's wrong with a quick reminder to those that have. As I said, if the rationale as set out in that video doesn't persuade you, your thought process is probably so different to mine that there is no point in me going on..... We won't agree and you will want to leave for leavings sake and are happy to live with the likely or (if you prefer) possible consequences including a recession.
The bike light example is simplistic - but my point is that much of what people call red tape is useful and worthwhile and doesn't appear to hamper our success when compared with other countries that are outside the EU. I am certainly not convinced that the levels of red tape are so overwhelming that we need to weather a long and painful recession to reduce it fractionally.
should be grateful we are not like our European neighbours.
There is probably a debate to be held in many countries (including our own) about the levels of social democracy, representation, and accountability that the trend towards neo-liberalism us bringing us.
The problem is I don't think the answer to those issues is "Let's abandon the EU, and enter years of re-writing laws and conventions at very short notice, while at the same time trying to write hundreds of trade negotiations and agreements, all while trying not to tank our economy, and keep our country from splitting apart"
For those Remainers here who have repeatedly "despaired" about the state of the UK politically and with regard to immigration attitudes should be grateful we are not like our European neighbours.
Credit where its due you have done your best to stir up the tensions about immigration and then when a RW nut job actually killed someone you blamed Immigrants [for coming here]and the EU[for letting them] . At least you accept you are not getting much traction.
As for the Liverpool prof's video it was posted pages back and I took the time to watch it make notes and post a responce
Your response was to shoot the messenger by claiming he was biased because he was secure in his job[WTF] and AMAZINGLY an academic making academic points 😯 As he said his points were basic undergraduate points that were irrefutable.
It was not so much a response as it was another nail in your coffin of credibility, Its getting close to being greater than the mass of the earth with all the nails you keep adding .
@gower chapeau for riding your bike ! Did you read my alternative opinion on what was said ?
EU question time debate- Dave..Wow he's getting maulled. Dickhead said to another questioner 'I don't want to fluster you with facts'. I thought that was a insulting retort to a fair question.
I'll upset you all now
The most cogent and most positive pro-remain interview I've seen yet:
Indeed @hora audienced packed with intellectually challenged racists who clearly did not see the Liverpool Prof's video !
Shit!! Take cover folks!!! Jammers and Hora are threatening to create a critical mass of utter bollocks!!!!!
[img] 
[/img]
From the parts I saw, I thought Cameron did alright.
Note: For the record, I've never voted Tory, and I'm certainly no fan of DC.
Same here. And I'm no Dave fan, to say the least!
What it did show was how ill-informed and blindly prejudiced the Brexiters were, by just the stupidity, for example, of referring to the EU as a dictatorship (seriously?) and then just banging on and on and on about immigration (yawn) and Turkey (complete red herring)
The tactics of scaremongering, as it has been all along.
The tactics of scaremongering, as it has been all along.
Indeed Remain have turned the dial to 11
By saying what?
Indeed Remain have turned the dial to 11
Ah! I see you have adopted the "I know you are, but what am I?" form of attack. Chapeau.
I think when addressing jambalaya you should use "hat" rather than "chapeau".
It was not long ago people where openly speaking of Turkey possibly joining in 5 years.
Cameron could have put the whole Turkey issue to bed by guaranteeing a referendum on ANY new EU member. Job done. However he has not. He has committed to a Referendum on any new Treaty so why not this issue (byw its a rhetorical question as I know the answer)
Why's that @slow, my wife is French and I was just singing the Marseilles before ko. I doubt there are many people who travelled to as many countries as me for business as well as working abroad, also the son of a father born in India who took his famlly to Oz in the 60's. The vast majority of those olaces we do business with no trafe agreement amd there is no need what-so-ever for any element of legal or political integration. None.
@binnersnplenty of name calling - anonymously on the internet of course. Why not take an hour toneatch Lexit film then get out and about and make those remarks to those people face to face
Jammers, dear boy. As a rule of thumb, if you find yourself agreeing with Hora, especially on anything political, then it's time to take stock, and have a long hard look at yourself
He's not even real, you know? He's an experiment. They keep a number of starving 5 year olds in a squalid darkened room, then by candle-light they beat them, and make them write random words on scraps of paper. Then all the scraps of paper are placed on a wall. A monkey is then employed to throw darts at the wall. Whichever of the words the darts hit are then typed into the interweb
@jambalaya.... I did track your post down. I wrote a fuller reply but my iPad went weird and I am rewriting it in a hurry as I need to get a kayak onto eBay..... I also haven't gone back to view the vid again and make a forensic analysis!
Anyway, you make some good points and you probably know more about business then me. But there are still things that stand in the video - such as issues surrounding regulatory requirements and the advantage of the single market, timescales for negotiating agreements, how attractive the UK is to investors if it's outside the market they want access to, uncertainty and its impact, etc.
Anyway I guess opinions are polarised and consensus is not the name of the game at the moment. I have been arguing with a close friend on this issue and we just can't see eye to eye even though we both have similar interests and values.
If we leave I really hope I'm wrong and my worries are unfounded!
So, what you are saying is that the EU HASN"T [u]held us back from coming up with and implementing[/u] our own standards?Another plus for the IN campaign there, then.
Err, you are aware that the British Standards for plugs were published in 1947...
Sounds like another one that can go in the "What have the EU ever done for us" video 🙂
@gower thanks for reply, we are all equally entitled to vote as we see fit. There are arguments bith ways. All I was really trying to say is its not as clear cut as the Prof makes out and as posters here seem to think that his views means the result should be definitely one.
way.
What I would say is how many businesses with their hard earned cash hire economists or academics. Answer pretty much none. I work in finance. An example a global leading asset manager with 300 staff. Zero economists, zero academics (the firm does give money for academic research but its charitable giving, we see plenty of economists but thats a "free" client meeting we wouldn't pay a cent for the advice)
The point about standards is that what is currently built in the UK for the UK market to UK standards is automatically compliment for the rest of the EU. If we are outside the UK businesses that want to trade into the EU will have to go though another process to be compliment to their standards.
The EU actually reduce bureaucracy for businesses through out the EU by setting common standards.
British Standars no longer exists as it was a nightmare of red tape, EU standards reduced all that on many levels.
You do realise the 'red tape' they're so fond of abolishing is nothing to do with international standards on plugs. It's the other stuff - not being able to keep people in bonded slavery, or not being allowed to 'encourage' them to work harder with cattle prods, and side handled batons...
That type of thing
Err, you are aware that the British Standards for plugs were published in 1947...Sounds like another one that can go in the "What have the EU ever done for us" video
Oh, I'm sorry: I must have missed that time when the EU forced us to change to the European plug standard. Dammit: I'll have to go round changing all the plugs in my house. Oh well.
The vast majority of those olaces we do business with no trafe agreement
How significant are those markets?
Oh, I'm sorry: I must have missed that time when the EU forced us to change to the European plug standard. Dammit: I'll have to go round changing all the plugs in my house. Oh well.
Can you point out to where i said that?
Can you point out to where i said that?
Sorry, I didn't mean you, I was talking to ninfan.
Oh sorry
Probably because they realise we have the superior system - however your claim was clearly regards [i]coming up with[/i] and [i]implementing[/i] our own standard.
You mean despite our loss of sovereignty to the EU they allowed us to keep our own plugs? I thought we had to do everything their way now.
Probably because they realise we have the superior system - however your claim was clearly regards coming up with and implementing our own standard.
Have we not continued to "implement" the system, in the face of other standards being available?
Out - The Lisbon Treaty will finish the UK off as a nation.
We are the 5th largest economy in the World and we should as a nation benefit from that but end up propping the weakest nations up at our expense.
The EU as a concept ran its course, if i was voting on Thursday to join i would not want to enter and for that reason i am out.
