[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

What does that mean? How will 'more flexibilities' make you work or try harder? Why don't you just do that now? I'm guessing because

it's much easier to blame the EU for all our faults.

And how many failed businesses is the price worth paying for Brexit?

wolfenstein, chewkw,

I'm sorry your experience of Britain has proven to be less than you expected. Someone clearly gave you some poor intelligence. Having grown up here I've pretty much accepted the way things are (though I accept they could be better). I'm at a loss though to know why leaving the EU will improve Britain.

Lifer - Member
What does that mean? How will 'more flexibilities' make you work or try harder? Why don't you just do that now?

And how many failed businesses is the price worth paying for Brexit?

Or alternatively you can turn that question around by asking "How many successful businesses can be generated by Brexit?"

If the business model is doomed than it will be doomed regardless.

It's not doomed...unless brexit win.

How many can be created then?

Not followed this thread...but just been reading the last few pages in response to 'mintimperial' commenting 'Everyone who votes out next Thursday is voting to put the father of a seven year old kid, and the husband of a woman who is too ill to work, out of employment.'

Wow...some might say that a vote to remain is keeping someone with a 7 year old and a wife too ill to work struggling to secure employment because they've been forced out of the labour market by immigrants!?

Just saying that everyone has their own circumstances and everyone will feel that one way will affect them positively and the other negatively...each to their own that's why we're in a democracy and that's why we each get a vote.

Wow...some might say that a vote to remain is keeping someone with a 7 year old and a wife too ill to work struggling to secure employment because they've been forced out of the labour market by immigrants!?

No-one has yet...

Or alternatively you can turn that question around by asking "How many successful businesses can be generated by Brexit?"

Or alternatively you can turn that question around by asking "How many successful businesses can be generated by Brexit?"

Without any trade agreements: Practically none.

I have just spent a week on holiday with people from all over Europe. They think UK is insane for even risking a vote and really worried we will leave. The Germans are particularly pissed off as they see UK as natural allies in Europe. But a Czech woman was worried about impact on domestic nationalism leading to Czechit, Portugese and Spanish on economic impact, Dutch similar to Germans etc

So which of these two would you like to run your country?
[img] [/img]

slowoldman - Member

wolfenstein, chewkw,

I'm sorry your experience of Britain has proven to be less than you expected. Someone clearly gave you some poor intelligence. Having grown up here I've pretty much accepted the way things are (though I accept they could be better). I'm at a loss though to know why leaving the EU will improve Britain.

Slowoldman chap please do not apologise as life is very different for everyone. I take the gamble to search for greener pasture in anticipation for something better with my naive views of the world when I was young. I have learned my lesson good or bad. I just wish I was there to advise myself ... 😆

My view of leaving EU is very simple - bureaucracy. You may view this as a necessary evil or good but it is something I experienced negatively where I came from. We are part of a Union, where I came from, like BritLand but as politicians "sold us off" in exchange for power they eroded our rights systematically and we ended up worst than we started. We cannot change the system because our system is closely embedded in a larger system with bureaucrats manipulating the rules to deny us our rights.

With BritLand the situation is heading the same way and no matter how developed a nation or a system it is, once you are part of a larger system (you Will) you will have to deal with a bunch of pen pushers in EU ... Therefore, even when 99% of BritLand people vote In and with only me, one person Vote OUT, I will still Vote OUT. Yes, I am opened to be convinced but judging from all the threads and responses they make me more determine to vote out. Their logic, rational and inconsistency are so clearly evident I would foolish to lie to myself.

[b]I am NOT important in the grand scheme of things[/b] 😀

slowoldman - Member
Ooh yes go on, tell us. Because that's exactly the sort of unsubstantiated crap being peddled by the Leave campaign with nothing to back it up. NOTHING.

slowoldman chap ... you are losing composure ... calm down.

Or alternatively I can ask how many will suffer if we leave?

slowoldman - Member
So which of these two would you like to run your country?

Nope, gone! slowoldman chap is gone. You loss it! You are trying to outdo me as cartoon character now.

Human nature ... eh! 🙄

Told you.

OK fair does. I don't agree.

But

Or alternatively I can ask how many will suffer if we leave?

Mint's linked statement on his own page is the least compelling argument I have ever seen, totally self centred & posted for one reason only.
I'm not saying I agree or disagree, & I do feel for him, but this is one of the reasons that it's hard to make a choice on the matter, to much self centred bille spouted for personal gain & not enough conjecture, how is one supposed to make an informed decision?

slowoldman - Member
I don't know, and there's the rub. No-one is providing any sensible information on which to base an intelligent, informed decision. Given that I vote remain

EU is an added burden.

No it isn't. See the many many pieces of evidence for this.

Wow...some might say that a vote to remain is keeping someone with a 7 year old and a wife too ill to work struggling to secure employment because they've been forced out of the labour market by immigrants!?

How have the immigrants forced this straw man out of employment? By working harder? By being better at their job?

chewkw That is an idiotic response. If you want me to vote for change I need compelling evidence of an advantage. I have seen none. Why take a massive risk for no perceivable gain? Let's have some clearly defined and well researched numbers.

slowoldman - Member
chewkw That is an idiotic response. If you want me to vote for change I need compelling evidence of an advantage. I have seen none. Why take a massive risk for no perceivable gain? Let's have some clearly defined and well researched numbers.

I think you are more then capable to research those numbers than I do so read whatever you have

Or, you could just provide a shred of evidence to support your argument

but try to be impartial.

There aren't enough LOL emojis on the planet to cover this irony.

zokes - Still not a customer
Or, you could just provide a shred of evidence to support your argument

There aren't enough LOL emojis on the planet to cover this irony.

edit: Okay ... I need to watch telly now so will response tomorrow.

Without any trade agreements: Practically none.

America, India, China, Australia, Canada etc all seem to have been doing pretty well

Have a look back at the chart I posted from then L(eft)exit movie, whats the trend ?

Mint's linked statement on his own page is the least compelling argument I have ever seen, totally self centred and posted for one reason only.

Cheers. That's pretty insulting, given the level of some of the other arguments you can see, just on this page here, let alone the rest of the thread.

I'm trying to defend my livelihood, because that's what this comes down to for me. Yes it's self-centred, of course it is, this is the first time that the political process has directly and specifically targeted me, and my ability to earn a living.

You vote out. That's fine: if you want to give me a kicking for being selfish, go for it.

Will I still be able to buy a citroen if we leave europe?

or any french car for that matter?

But Jamba: they all have trade agreements in place. Outside the EU we would have to renegotiate everything. Do you really trust our current government to do this? Not only trust: do you think they have the time to debate every single trade agreement?

People seem to think that leaving the EU will result in more democracy: in fact, it will result in less as closed groups would have to be set up to undertake these negotiations; none of which will be debated in Parliament as there won't be the time.

Do you really want to hand this power to those politicians that are left still standing after all this mess?
Not only this, but we are left with very little primary industry these days : most of our expertise is in specialist, subsidiary industry that has a limited appeal outside of a large framework, such as the EU. So who's to say that we will have the same pulling power and will be able to negotiate agreements as lucrative as the ones we have now, through the EU?

General comment, imo we have too many similar threads. On other forums mods often join the similar threads.

Inevitably we do yes but few fall into as much pointless arguing to such levels as EU threads have.

slowoldman - Member
chewkw That is an idiotic response. If you want me to vote for change I need compelling evidence of an advantage. I have seen none. Why take a massive risk for no perceivable gain? Let's have some clearly defined and well researched numbers.

Slowoldman chap,

Someone might have posted this information but I don't know ... anyhoo ...

Okay evidence [url= http://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/datasets/publicationtablesuktrade ]here (ons.gov.uk)[/url] with plenty of numbers so make it whatever you will. Download the spreadsheet then read in detail ... are the source credible I don't know but it's from BritLand govt.

A quick summary.
[b]
Export to: (million)[/b]
EU £130,126
Non EU £93,827
Different: £36,299

[b]Import from:(million)[/b]
EU £219,619
Non EU £177,028
Different: £42 591

[b]Top ten countries we export to:[/b]

1 United States - 47 486
2 [b]Germany[/b] - 30 585
3 [b]France[/b] - 17 960
4 [b]Netherlands[/b] - 17 304
5 [b]Irish Republic[/b] - 16 811
6 China - 12 746
7 [b]Belgium & Luxembourg[/b] - 11 773
8 [b]Spain[/b] - 8 935
9 [b]Italy[/b] - 8 574
10 Switzerland - 7 332

[b]Top ten we import from:[/b]

1 [b]Germany[/b] - 62 073
2 China - 37 881
3 United States - 34 865
4 [b]Netherlands[/b] - 31 262
5 [b]France[/b] - 24 395
6 [b]Belgium & Luxembourg[/b] - 21 467
7 [b]Italy[/b] - 15 966
8 [b]Spain[/b] - 14 080
9 Norway - 13 124
10 [b]Irish Republic[/b] - 12 765

Crikey no wonder EU is applying so much pressure on BritLand coz you lot like to spend money!!!

You are indeed a cash cow! 😆

EU is a bureaucracy

So is the UK. Now answer my question, if you are able. If not, stop wasting our time, adults are talking.

zokes - Still not a customer

EU is a bureaucracy

So is the UK. Now answer my question, if you are able. If not, stop wasting our time, adults are talking.

Some form of bureaucracy is inevitable in local governance or in the govt as that's natural part of administration otherwise anarchy will prevail.

However, to deliberately create mega bureaucratic institution by increasing the power of those bureaucrats is irresponsible even in the name of the common good. You are talking about an organisation created solely for the purpose of making rules on tops of rules. The purpose of the rules are to take away your independent thoughts. Yes, rules are to be followed but excessive rules is the nature of bureaucracy.

It has no feeling nor compassion other than a system that will consume all in its path. Support the system you will elevate yourself to be worshiped but deny the system you will punish to suffer forever.

Once the system has embedded itself completely there is no way out unless there is a complete swarming of the system to break it. i.e. full scale revoke and revolution.

If you have acknowledged UK is already bureaucratic what logic do you have to enhance that bureaucratic system many times over?

blah blah blah..... Emotive crap..... Blah blah blah

Yeah, and we're all living in The Matrix too.

I applaud your imagination Chewkw, but also recognise it for what it is: imagination.

And if you're worried about obstructive bureaucracy, why not fix the problems closer to home? Not only is this easier, it would have a more noticeable effect

zokes - Still not a customer

blah blah blah..... Emotive crap..... Blah blah blah

Yeah, and we're all living in The Matrix too.

I applaud your imagination Chewkw, but also recognise it for what it is: imagination.

Fixing the problem needs to be done while it is still evolving i.e. at the development stage rather than at the mature stage.

And if you're worried about obstructive bureaucracy, why not fix the problems closer to home? Not only is this easier, it would have a more noticeable effect

It cannot be fixed because the system is already fully matured and deeply rooted.

More demonstrable tripe. The question of devolution of powers is constantly evolving. Quangos come and go. Councils merge and separate. Are you seriously saying because an unelected house of review and head of state were OK four centuries ago we shouldn't revisit them at some point?

The last time someone tried to fix the system it resulted in ethnic cleansing.

It resulted in the EU.

We sleep walk into the our Union without knowing because the older politicians were good people that could be trusted

Yes Margaret was a lovely and Enoch what a true gent had time for everyone unless you're black.

Then there's politicians who loved kids, ok a little too much bit they loved them.

Are STW still banning links to the Mail on Sunday? I'm gobsmacked!

brexitthemovie.com. forget the emotive immigration claims, just the mechanics of the EU is enough to make you think.

Are STW still banning links to the Mail on Sunday? I'm gobsmacked!

Well, it's not become any more factually accurate, has it?

brexitthemovie.com. forget the emotive immigration claims, just the mechanics of the EU is enough to make you think.

America, India, China, Australia, Canada etc all seem to have been doing pretty well

well, two of that list are to two largest economies in the world, so no massive surprise there, and the rest of those countries has signed joint trade agreements that are dominated by those economies. Trade agreements are written by the larger economies. The agreement between Switzerland and China for instance, means that China has an open market in Switzerland now and China opens up the other way in 15 year's time...

"You want to trade with us, fine, here are our rules..."

The brexiteers will tell you; it won't be like that, but why risk it?

mintimperial - Member

Cheers. That's pretty insulting, given the level of some of the other arguments you can see, just on this page here, let alone the rest of the thread.

I'm trying to defend my livelihood, because that's what this comes down to for me. Yes it's self-centred, of course it is, this is the first time that the political process has directly and specifically targeted me, and my ability to earn a living.

You vote out. That's fine: if you want to give me a kicking for being selfish, go for it.

It was not supposed to be personally insulting & I have no wish to give you a kicking, so sorry if you feel that way. I was merely stating my opinion on your argument, & that ultimately most people vote on what effects themselves & not vote for the greater good of the country.

Cheers.

@minty I read your blog. Clearly after Brexit the NHS and Pharmacies will be buying drugs. You didn't explain why your business will be "gone" and personally I can see no reason why it should be. Even if you import soley from the EU and their are tarrifs that's factored into pricing and maybe non-EU pricing will look relatively better. We are not going tomstop the import of medicines upon Brexit.

most people vote on what effects themselves & not vote for the greater good of the country.

I am definitely voting Leave for the good of the country which will impacts me as I don't want to see EU levels of unemployment and corresponding cuts in services if we are dragged into a eurozone collapse and its consequences. In the very short term view Remain would probably be better financially due to increasing house prices

[i]EU is a bureaucracy[/]

I take it you've never worked in the UK Govt?

All public institutions are bureaucracies by their very nature, and leaving the EU won't make any difference except create a load more of UK ones to replace the EU ones.

In the very short term view Remain would probably be better financially due to increasing house prices

That is certainly the unanimous opinion of all the worlds leading [s]financial experts and institutions[/s] BREXIT fact ignorer.

zokes - Still not a customer

blah blah blah..... Emotive crap..... Blah blah blah

I'm sure someone mentioned 'adults are talking" earlier?

I take it you've never worked in the UK Govt?

Fair point but on a relative basis we are highly efficient and steamlined. The Europeans (eg French) are off the charts for job-creation bureaucracy. It never ceases to amaze me.

I'm sure someone mentioned 'adults are talking" earlier?

Bullseye

All public institutions are bureaucracies by their very nature, and leaving the EU won't make any difference except create a load more of UK ones to replace the EU ones

And another part of the problem is that it isn't only other countries we have to negotiate with now but actually companies who are much more able to throw legal firepower into any argument than government are, especially since we tend to think that lean funding is a good thing. Look at how easily Amazon, Starbucks, Apple etc are able to choose how much they 'want' to give us in tax because they can throw teams of people at the task of circumventing whatever regulations we come up with. It is difficult to see how not having a larger scale control of these regulations isn't better for us

edit: and yes of course these anomalies happened while we were in the EU but it is difficult to see it being anything other than worse if we left

Export to: (million)
EU £130,126
Non EU £93,827
Different: £36,299
Import from:(million)
EU £219,619
Non EU £177,028
Different: £42 591
Top ten countries we export to:

1 United States - 47 486
2 Germany - 30 585
3 France - 17 960
4 Netherlands - 17 304
5 Irish Republic - 16 811
6 China - 12 746
7 Belgium & Luxembourg - 11 773
8 Spain - 8 935
9 Italy - 8 574
10 Switzerland - 7 332
Top ten we import from:

1 Germany - 62 073
2 China - 37 881
3 United States - 34 865
4 Netherlands - 31 262
5 France - 24 395
6 Belgium & Luxembourg - 21 467
7 Italy - 15 966
8 Spain - 14 080
9 Norway - 13 124
10 Irish Republic - 12 765

You do realise what you have posted there is a very strong argument for staying IN the EU?