[quote=GrahamS ]It didn't sound, to me, like he intended it as the deep racial slur that she understandably took it as.
+1 - he came across as a bit dim rather than particularly racist*. I can understand why she took it the way she did and wouldn't criticise her at all for it, but I'd expect her interaction with somebody genuinely racist to go a bit differently.
* maybe racist on a subconscious level, but those without any real power who don't act on such beliefs aren't really a problem
"Or they could have made it an advisory referendum"
They did.
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@mikesmith I hear the PM's of Australia and New Zealnd have each said they would like to be the first country to sign a trade deal with the UK. Exactly as I predicted.
@tmh I am not entirely aure about power transfer with Article 50, with elections in Germany and France in 2017 both those couuntries will be at a very sensitive politcal stage. They will wish to be able to tell their electorates they are progressing a deal with the UK as they have much at stake. They also have to explain how the €15bn nett we contribute annually will be replaced.
Boris is I imagine focusing on the Tory leadership contest, had Cameron not resigned he would be getting on with something else.
I hear the PM's of Australia and New Zealnd have each said they would like to be the first country to sign a trade deal with the UK.
Source?
jamba really is a Farage alter ego - I'm fairly sure the source for that is Farage in the EU parliament earlier today
[quote=jambalaya ]Boris is I imagine focusing on the Tory leadership contest, had Cameron not resigned he would be getting on with something else.
Playing cricket? Writing newspaper articles?
Oh, silly me, that's what he was doing anyway
Source?
Are you new around here?
I posted this on the Scottish Indy thread too, Tusk has said it would not be appropriate for him to meet Nicola Sturgeon tommorrow. I can well imagine the Spanish are pushing back hard on their being any such dialogue. MEP's giving a hearty round of applause to a Scot praising the EU is a bit different than the politics of membership
Aus and NZ are among many that have stated they will do trade deals with the UK, of course everyone knows we are currently hit below the waterline and now is the time to get the best deal for them while we have neither the manpower or time to give deals full diligence.
Could you link where your 15 000 000 000e net comes form, Jamba.
I'm still waiting for a link to the 250 000 city jobs lost in the last 8 years.
As for the EU raising extra cash that's easy. We just have to charge a bit more than Norway is charged per capita to let the UK trade with the 27. And a bit more for good measure.
Great, our natural trading partners, almost literally on the other side of the world. Maybe we can build a tunnel? How are we going to deal with them whilst they are all asleep?
Jambas was referring to this
The good news is that Australia might get a flood of applications from talented prospective citizens. [b]The bad news is that Britain will be a diminished international force with limited capacity to play the sort of role some conservative commentators in this country fondly imagine.[/b] It is hardly a coincidence that those in Australia who want the country to become a republic have a renewed spring in their step [b]as they consider political folly on an epic scale.[/b]
Or perhaps not
Thank **** for Australia wanting a trade deal. One of our major trading partners.
The economy is saved.
Wait-how much trade do we do with Australia?
Fosters?
jamba was actually referring to what he said earlier (not his main speech, that was earlier in the session):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07kdm5s/european-parliament-28062016#playt=1h46m25s
For those who haven't already seen it, listen on to Alyn Smith MEP and the reaction he gets
torsoinalake - Member
Where is Boris anyway?
Never mind Boris. Where's ernie?
[url= http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-27/turnbull-orders-orders-urgent-review-of-brexit-implications/7546890 ]australia nz trade deal[/url]
The last bit is the most telling though,
Where do we put the real effort, the UK or EU, we trade with the EU through the UK....
So as the UK has no trade negotiators and the EU lots.....
Who is going to get the deal done first? And where are the major sea ports in Europe?
edit
[url] http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11664618 [/url]
Currently New Zealand primary exports to Britain are at three per cent, and 11 per cent to Europe. It was a different picture when Britain entered the European Union 43 years ago - at that time 40 per cent of exports went to Britain. And in the 1950s, more than 80 per cent of New Zealand exports went to Britain.
where would you put the effort?
"I can well imagine the Spanish are pushing back hard on their being any such dialogue."
Not just the Spanish. The EU has nothing to gain by encouraging Nationalism and everything to lose.
Plus, far from being a driver for Scottish Independence these events have shown that voting for something to happen doesn't make it practically possible. If the UK can't sensibly extricate itself from the EU what hope does Scotland have of negotiating its way out of the UK without reaching a terminal impasse.
Trading with Australia.. great... so next time I go to a client workshop I'll have a 24 hour flight.. ****ing marvellous.
Trading services with Australia has certain practical problems, don't you think?
Problems? In Jambaland? You must be mistaken...
molgrips - Member
Trading with Australia.. great... so next time I go to a client workshop I'll have a 24 hour flight.. **** marvellous.Trading services with Australia has certain practical problems, don't you think?
but we will bring back concorde, ignore the french involvement, and rule the skies once more. BOAC Comets will provide for the more routine flights.
"So as the UK has no trade negotiators and the EU lots.....
Who is going to get the deal done first?"
Do you even need a trade deal? You pay tariffs on exports, but you get to charge tariffs on your imports.
Doesn't seem terrible.
Do we really export that much more to Oz/Nz than we import?
From reading this forum and others for years I'm aware Australia is a big export market for well-qualified and experienced people. Police officers, medical personnel, IT staff, engineers... .
How do you decide what tariffs are on what?Do you even need a trade deal?
"How do you decide what tariffs are on what?"
Tariffs already exist. The deal is to remove them.
What of it?Always a tremendously flawed system. The only reason it's in use is that the other systems so far invented are worse. It's not an ideal, just a messy compromise.
One person=one vote...how is that flawed, not ideal and messy?
One person=one vote...how is that flawed, not ideal and messy?
Are you not watching the news? Looks pretty flippin messy to me.
Giving everyone's opinion equal weight has some clear drawbacks don't you think?
So you need a deal then? To agree to remove tariffs?Tariffs already exist. The deal is to remove them.
The outcome may be messy but that's not the fault of the process. Once the fear subsides things will seem clearer.
So you need a deal then? To agree to remove tariffs?
Do you? We've managed without to date. Why can't we just carry on as we are?
History is littered with the conclusions to that argument.Giving everyone's opinion equal weight has some clear drawbacks don't you think?
Because we have just voted to leave the EU.Do you? We've managed without to date. Why can't we just carry on as we are?
If only a trade deal was just about tariffs. They're about how you access local markets, overcome potential competition conflicts, what local environmental regulations goods have to meet, whether to allow other countries to trade on the same basis or as part of the deal do you want say China to find it harder to sell steel. Also, it may be that your trade partner wants you to back off a third market in return for preferential access to theirs.
The tariffs are the easy bit.
The much shared presentation by the professor at Liverpool Uni explains the complexities of them far better than I do and also why being out of the EU will weaken our trade position.
Worth 25 minutes of anyone's time to watch the whole thing or skip toward the end for the bit on trade deals.
dannyh, why can't you just accept democracy and crack on?
Surely democracy includes the right to carry on campaigning, to discuss and debate, to fight for what you believe in.
Telling someone to shut up, piss off and move on is about as undemocratic as it gets...
Sorry, was pulling your leg. Or taking the vote Leave approach. Depends how you look at it.
If only a trade deal was just about tariffs. They're about how you access local markets, overcome potential competition conflicts, what local environmental regulations goods have to meet, whether to allow other countries to trade on the same basis or as part of the deal do you want say China to find it harder to sell steel. Also, it may be that your trade partner wants you to back off a third market in return for preferential access to theirs.
The tariffs are the easy bit.
The much shared presentation by the professor at Liverpool Uni explains the complexities of them far better than I do and also why being out of the EU will weaken our trade position.
Worth 25 minutes of anyone's time to watch the whole thing or skip toward the end for the bit on trade deals.
Yup, its been widely circulated.
My question still stands. We currently trade happily with Oz and NZ with no trade deal.
What's the big problem with continuing to do so? The stuff we're exporting to OZ/NL already meets their requirements, and the stuff we import from them will already meet EU (and therefore UK) regs. Why is it suddenly critical to negotiate a trade deal with them? What stops us carrying on without?
Plus I'm not Dannyh 🙂
But seriously, the video is worth watching...
Because we have just voted to leave the EU
Explain why that requires us to have a trade deal with Oz/NL?
@oob-nothing. But one if the things we were 'promised' by VL is that we'd have better deals in place particularly with non-EU countries to offset the extra costs of doing business with Europe outside the single market.
What's the point in leaving if we are just going to maintain the status quo.
VL were very vocal. We leave the EU we're free to do deals with who we want how we want.
And there is a base trade deal lodged in Geneva under WTO rules...
@oob-nothing
Phew.
What we want from oz is free access for our banks in their system, they want something from us in exchange, say to sell raw materials from their mining industry.
At the moment those are controlled by WTO rules which really doesn't suit either and restricts industries we think we are good at, so we need to do a deal to create free access, sounds easy but there will be hundreds of trades for all manner of industries with hundreds of caveats on each.
The EU and Australia made a pact to move towards a free trade deal 2 years ago, both sides are still deciding what will be in the negotiation, because that is how long these things take when done with due diligence. If the UK thinks it can rush through deals it will be bum raped quite severely.
At the risk of cross posting with danny[u]b[/u]goode, we would be tearing up the existing deal if we step outside of the single market.Explain why that requires us to have a trade deal with Oz/NL?
We don't need one, but would you do a million pound deal without some sort of contract in place?
At the risk of cross posting with dannybgoode, we would be tearing up the existing deal if we step outside of the single market.
We don't need one, but would you do a million pound deal without some sort of contract in place?
Is there an existing deal? I thought there wasn't? If there is, its very recent and we managed without for two centuries before.
Trouble with trading (in Goods) with NZ and AUS is that you have to ship them halfway around the world. That costs money and, just as importantly, time.
Shipping goods from London to, say Amsterdam, doesn't take long and doesn't cost too much.
To increase levels of trade with NZ and AUS we are going to have to make something they really, really want.
What we want from oz is free access for our banks in their system, they want something from us in exchange, say to sell raw materials from their mining industry.
At the moment those are controlled by WTO rules which really doesn't suit either and restricts industries we think we are good at, so we need to do a deal to create free access,
And Brexiters claim we'd be better off negotiating that from outside the EU because its specifically UK banking and Oz Mining involved so simpler not to involve the needs of 27 other nations some of which might want to protect their mining.
OK, I think I understand the arguments now. Ta.
At the moment we are more likely to lose our banks to the EU who are further down the road to an oz deal. The banks will be better positioned within the EU to take advantage of the deals already in progress, and will not want to lose access to the EU single market anyway..
Same for oz, clearly the EU is a better deal for its mining industry than little old Britain.
At the moment we are more likely to lose our banks to the EU who are further down the road to an oz deal. The banks will be better positioned within the EU to take advantage of the deals already in progress, and will not want to lose access to the EU single market anyway..
Same for oz, clearly the EU is a better deal for its mining industry than little old Britain.
The EU has lots of trade agreements at various stages, the UK will be years behind on all of them. We really are to going to be left behind on this.
"At the moment we are more likely to lose our banks to the EU"
Which will please many Brexiters. Revenge for the banking crisis. Banks aren't popular in some quarters.
We don't need one, but would you do a [s]million[/s] multi billion pound deal without some sort of contract in place?
Banking is just an example, every industry faces the same challenges.
The EU has got the blame for globalisation and modernisation of industry and the world in general.
The clock just cannot be turned back on that, we need to find solutions to equality, fairness and employment, we need to find a way to inject hope back into peoples lives, building walls, blaming immigration and isolationist policies just will not work.
Banks aren't popular in some quarters
It does pay for a lot of stuff though.
Banking is just an example, every industry faces the same challenges
Well be specific then!
Exactly why is a trade deal with Oz/NZ suddenly critical?
t does pay for a lot of stuff though.
Yeah, people don't seem to care that banks pay their staff out of the massive amounts of cash they generate for the UK.
They just hate bankers and want them to **** off abroad.
Well be specific then!
Now you are just being deliberately obtuse.
Trade deals.
Two equally good disc brakes (let's call them EUStoppers and Britbrakes).
They cost the same to produce and ship to OZ, but EUStoppers don't have an import tariff on them while Britbrakes do.
So the EYStopper is cheaper to the consumer and on balance sells better.
The Britbrakes have to be cheaper to produce or work better in order to compete.
And that (while massively simplified) is just the tariff. All the other things mentioned by others will either help or hinder EUStoppers too. Like perhaps having EU standards recognised as pukka in OZ, while Britbrakes have to prove compliance with OZ standards as well as British standards.
It just makes it easier for British companies to compete.
They are normally (always?) reciprocal so OZ companies benefit by being able to sell into our market. But our market is 1/6 of the EU so the EU market might be more attractive first.
Simplistic, but anyone disagree?
a friend whos a teacher in Cambridge 🙁
Feeling very sad. I observed racist ramifications of EU referendum today, with white British students telling a Polish student they should go home to Poland. Obviously this was not exactly the language used. I was shocked and angry these students felt that racism is now acceptable. I may have expressed my anger!
outofbreath - MemberYeah, people don't seem to care that banks pay their staff out of the massive amounts of cash they generate for the UK.
They just hate bankers and want them to **** off abroad.
I do find it funny how people suddenly hate bankers, yet they rely so much on them without them knowing it.
It all started with Americans wanting credit they couldn't afford (sub prime mortgages), the banks just handed them the cash with higher rates of interest to offset the risk, the responsibility of paying it back is for the individual. Yes the likes of Lehman should have managed their risk better, but ultimately it stemmed from individuals not being responsible.
nah it was the hedge fund traders what really screwed it, they chopped up those debts and repackaged it and sold it on, thy got big bonuses for making money out of the same stuff several times
when the mortgages went tits up the hedge funders couldnt exlpain what theyd been selling on so banks just stopped trusting each others borrowing/lending
*i am not an economist
True 😉 i think your opening line needs some revision 😉 and....
I do find it funny how people suddenly hate bankers, yet they rely so much on them without them knowing it.It all started with Americans wanting credit they couldn't afford (sub prime mortgages), the banks just handed them the cash with higher rates of interest to offset the risk, the responsibility of paying it back is for the individual. Yes the likes of Lehman should have managed their risk better, but ultimately it stemmed from individuals not being responsible.
Can we play "spot the banker" now?
I hate bankers because they have hijacked everything we do, we are reliant on them because they have so much influence/control, and yet they are not the most honest when it comes to financial dealings.
.
I hate bankers because they have hijacked everything we do, we are reliant on them because they have so much influence/control, and yet they are not the most honest when it comes to financial dealings.
Is that Matthew 21:12?
Trade deals.Two equally good disc brakes (let's call them EUStoppers and Britbrakes).
They cost the same to produce and ship to OZ, but EUStoppers don't have an import tariff on them while Britbrakes do.
So the EYStopper is cheaper to the consumer and on balance sells better.
The Britbrakes have to be cheaper to produce or work better in order to compete.
And that (while massively simplified) is just the tariff. All the other things mentioned by others will either help or hinder EUStoppers too.
Apart from the fact that the trade tariffs, sitting at about 4% of trade price transports into making an inconsequential difference at retail, maybe 2%, which is well within the built in ranges an importer would allow to cover forex rates etc.
Like perhaps having EU standards recognised as pukka in OZ, while Britbrakes have to prove compliance with OZ standards as well as British standards.
most standards are already highly integrated internationally, hence are ISO rather than just local standards. so for example BS EN ISO 4210 applies to bikes pretty much worldwide
Apart from the fact that the trade tariffs, sitting at about 4% of trade price transports into making an inconsequential difference at retail
4% on bike parts? Or on everything? Why is everyone making such a fuss over it if it's not important?
on the standards thing, as everyone likes a helmet debate!, Australia, for some reason!, has decided that helmets have to comply to there standard which is different to everyone elses. That Giro you are wearing is probably illegal in Aus. When i say illegal i mean you can be fined and will be treated as not wearing one at all!
I know it is a minor example, but it does illustrate the point that one of the ideas behind the EU was to unify standards to make life easier to trade.
Now if you are a UK manufacturer and want to sell into the Australian market, whose standards do you adopt? Would it be helpful if their was an agreement in place that allowed for the standards to be regarded as equivalent?
Have a look at your driving licence, see the flag in the corner that signifies equivalence.
Something else that might help explain how complicated it can be
[url] http://www.dutycalculator.com/dc/16850-import-duty-rate-for-Bicycle-is-14/ [/url]
Would it be helpful if their was an agreement in place that allowed for the standards to be regarded as equivalent?
You mean like ISO?
ninfan... you do realise that there are EN standards which aren't also ISO, just like there are ANSI standards for the US etc...
Also, wasn't part of the reason brexiters wanted to leave the EU to stop 'undemocratic institutions' telling us what we can and can't do? Doesn't this also stand for the ISO? Are you going to campaign to leave that next too?
Yes indeed. Bring back the kite mark. See where that gets you.
You mean like ISO?
and ISO isn't universal, it is a step in the right direction granted, but you don't have to accept it.
What have the Europeans ever done for us part whatever - euro norms
Thank you ninfan for reminding us.
Oh and a bicycle doesn't seem to be 4% in mrmo's post. Perhaps you could explain the 4% further. (Just because I'm now assuming that as a leaver you occasionally just make things up - you may not have, but leave does have a track record on this) 😉
igm, tariffs are insane, the rate on a bike is different to the rate on a pile of bits that make up a bike. Also where it is coming from matters, things like anti dumping allow for higher rates to be charged.
mrmo - indeed. As an occasional buyer of things from overseas I see this sort of thing. But ninfan picked 4% so let him explain to us why.
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Nice burn from Guy VerhoofinSlats.
I've been catching up with how a few friends and family voted in the last couple of days and I've only managed to find one other person that voted to remain. Currently the split is 11 to 2.
So Cameron has told the council of ministers that there can be no free movement of people, a few hours after Merkel had said, no free movent, no trade.
A nice **** you to Johnson and Gove; a promise they can never deliver on.
(Their task already suffering a hard blow after Farage, managed to alienate and insult every single MEP, in a display n of narcissistic hubris like no other)
@kimbers Cameron said the EU had to do more on free movement as uncontrolled immigration had been a key issue in the Referendum. He didn't say we had to abolish it (his opinion). Basically he was telling them - [b]"I asked for this, you said no and so we lost"[/b]
Freedom of movement is massive for the EU as its one of the big carrots they need for new members as they need new members to sustain their outdated economic model.
As above many tarifs are not a big deal, £ has moved more than 5% vs the euro many times in the last 10 years. Cars are a big one, I think thats 12% but we still biy plenty of Korean, Japanese and American cars.
@muppet interesting
@welsh I fail to see what advantage their is for a tech company to be inside the EU ?
@captain bankers have "power" as we like to borrow money
igm - membermrmo - indeed. As an occasional buyer of things from overseas I see this sort of thing. But ninfan picked 4% so let him explain to us why.
Because [b]you[/b] used disc brakes as an example, hence me discussing the relevant tariff to [b]your[/b] example, pretty simple I would have thought.