[Closed] EU just plain stupid, no wonder people are voting UKIP

Will sleep tonight thanks EU.

dunno whats sadder?

the EU doing stuff like this or people who get upset about it

The EU makes the rules, the UK follows them & gets upset the rest ignore them and carry on. Simple system really.

The fact that restaurants will no longer be able to put unlabelled, cheap olive oil onto tables will definitely make me vote for fascist scum.

I can think of a whole raft of reasons why Britain should leave the EU, the introduction of tamper-proof packaging for olive oil in restaurants isn't one of them.

IMO anyone who takes an anti-EU position based on how olive oil dipping bowls are presented in restaurants needs to learn grownup politics, besides the fact that it is rather bizarre to feel strongly that olive oil dipping bowls [i]shouldn't[/i] be in tamper-proof packaging.

And that BBC article in the link is deeply misleading imo. There [i]has[/i] been a dramatic increase in negative attitudes towards the EU across Europe, but it has absolutely nothing to do with regulations such as this one and everything to do with the economic crises now gripping much of the EU.

The biggest change in attitude is in countries such as Spain which is suffering severely in the economic downturn, and the smallest change is among East European countries which have not suffered anywhere as much economically. It has nothing to do with olive oil packaging, the shape of bananas, or any other Daily Mail/Sun fueled nonsense.

I wouldnt say that I am upset about it, Im discussing it here in Madrid with a couple of artisanal producers and a restaurant owner and laughing about how it will be totally ignored and not enforced, but if I could get hold of a pdf version of the hedge knight graphic novels then it might cheer me up.

All depends on your perspective I guess. Although on the face of it, it seems ridiculous - how else are you gonna stop dodgy places recharging their bottles with cheap s***, but charging you for premium quality?

I'd imagine the rule was proposed by countries where they care a lot about the quality of the food they eat.

And that BBC article in the link is deeply misleading imo. There has been a dramatic increase in negative attitudes towards the EU across Europe, but it has absolutely nothing to do with regulations such as this one and everything to do with the economic crises now gripping much of the EU.

The biggest change in attitude is in countries such as Spain which is suffering severely in the economic downturn, and the smallest change in attitude is among East European countries which have not suffered anywhere as much economically. It has nothing to do with olive oil packaging, the shape of bananas, or any other Daily Mail/Sun fueled nonsense.

Yup.

but don't underestimate the fickle and dumb people in Britain vote for the most inane reasons.
these little snippets simply fuel the fire.
Hence UKIP now showing massive gains in bi-elections.

This table made me smile.
[img] [/img]

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/05/13/the-new-sick-man-of-europe-the-european-union/

All depends on your perspective I guess. Although on the face of it, it seems ridiculous - how else are you gonna stop dodgy places recharging their bottles with cheap s***, but charging you for premium quality?

Agreed. But by the same token, how do you know your chicken breast is really corn fed and not a battery farmed special? Or that you beef is really hung for 28 days before being served. At some point we have to trust our restaurateurs to not be shameless crooks.

Fear not we have discovered a solution as the restaurant dosent charge for the oil it doesnt have to define what olive oil it is so we can all sleep well.

How it works is the EU issues regulations that member states implement. The implementation allows for reasonable exceptions. This will be part of a bigger set of regulations to improve hygiene in restaurants and café's, which the UK already actually does quite well, so these regulations will just be absorbed into the currently applied rules with little difference.

All depends on your perspective I guess. Although on the face of it, it seems ridiculous - how else are you gonna stop dodgy places recharging their bottles with cheap s***, but charging you for premium quality?

since there dosnt seem to be a link anywhere to the ruling, whats to stop restaurants just selling generic 'olive-oil' in re-fillable bottles and any premium stuff has to be in these fancy bottles. Since the main criticism is that we are being fleeced on not getting what we pay for, if i pay for oil, and get oil, then whats the issue?

The Commission, the EU's executive branch, says the move will protect consumers and improve hygiene.

This will be part of a bigger set of regulations to improve hygiene in restaurants and café's, which the UK already actually does quite well

Is this the end to re-fillable ketchup containers then? no-more unsealed bottles of Heinz on the table? etc.

[quote=STATO ]
Is this the end to re-fillable ketchup containers then? no-more unsealed bottles of [s]Heinz[/s] [b]cheap, cash-and-carry ketchup[/b] on the table? etc.
FTFY 🙂

If you pay for a premium product, get something inferior, [i]and don't notice,[/i] who's at fault here? (-:

I wouldn't know premium olive oil from Crisp 'n' Dry, but if someone passed off happy shopper ketchup as Heinz I'd tell immediately.

Classy, me, y'see.

The Commission, the EU's executive branch, says the move will protect consumers and improve hygiene.

Well they would say that, wouldn't they?

I really can't see what the problem is, and as its olive oil its something that's not really aimed at the UK but is protecting/controlling those more likely Med based.

It's pointless petty bureaucratic meddling, and while Ernie might be correct that [b]this one issue[/b] is not a big deal, it's symptomatic of the arrogant, ivory-tower attitude that exists in Brussels.

and as it's olive oil it's something that's not really aimed at the UK but is protecting/controlling those more likely Med based.

First they came for the olive oil, and I did not speak out, for I do not go to fancy Mediterranean restaurants....

its a problem that doesnt exist and doesnt need a regulation, as hygiene is not an issue as there are no cases of people getting ill from olive oil poisoning from a restaurant. it is simply a move to support big oil producers ie big business getting regulation to support itself and to limit small producers access to the market.
as restaurants arent charging for the oil its not a regulation that can be enforced.
except in the UK where restaurants take the piss and charge you for bread and oil.

except in the UK where restaurants take the piss and charge you for bread and oil.

I've never been charged for bread and oil in a restaurant.

as restaurants arent charging for the oil its not a regulation that can be enforced.
except in the UK where restaurants take the piss and charge you for bread and oil.

Perhaps they could just charge for bread (which may be artisan from refined essence of gold, or it may be warbies), and give the oil gratis?

[i]I've never been charged for bread and oil in a restaurant. [/i]

No? We have many times, so can't be that unusual.

its a problem that doesnt exist and doesnt need a regulation, as hygiene is not an issue as there are no cases of people getting ill from olive oil poisoning from a restaurant. it is simply a move to support big oil producers ie big business getting regulation to support itself and to limit small producers access to the market.

+1

Good to know our taxes are being spent so wisely.

I wouldn't know premium olive oil from Crisp 'n' Dry

I bet you would in a taste off.

I've never been charged for bread and oil in a restaurant.

I have, twice fairly recently. Once in Spain and once in France.

I have, twice fairly recently. Once in Spain and once in France.

That can't be right it's UK that happens.

Drac - Moderator
I've never been charged for bread and oil in a restaurant.

You have, just indirectly.

You have, just indirectly.

Noooo!

The bastards how dare they try and protect me from being conned or from a disease ...i want my inalienable human right to be ripped off and get ill now **** off and leave us alone

😆

I love anti-EU rants, almost as much as I like to watch the party in the blue corner once again tear itself apart over it. And it's all for nothing.

Right so... Maybe there really is a "I paid for expensive olive oil and got Lidl own brand" issue here. But if there is, it only affects people who pay for expensive olive oil, which must be a tiny minority surely? But dealing with it like this impacts everyone else who wouldn't pay for expensive olive oil because, well, **** that.

So is this possibly a case of policymakers looking at their own first world problems and not realising it's not an issue anyone else has?

My parents know the chef and owner of a fairly well known Birmingham restaurant, and he uses branded olive oil in the restaurant and Aldi (or Lidl - as to me they're interchangeable) oil at home because he prefers it, but customers would feel cheated.

people getting ill from olive oil poisoning

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_oil_syndrome ]Some reading to refresh your memory[/url]. A thousand people died in that one.

I paid for expensive olive oil and got Lidl own brand

Edit: don't believe wikipedia too implicitly, the deaths above were probably caused by excessive pesticide residues on salad-stuff from Almeria ([url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2001/aug/25/research.highereducation ]Guardian analysis[/url]) There was a load of aniline contaminated oil in circulation though.

I'm rather more concerned with this than the pointless olive oil meddling:
[url= http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/01/25/eu460.jp g" target="_blank">http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/01/25/eu460.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
(Click for PDF)

Top snippage there, Sandwich. The original including the bit you snipped was:

no cases of people getting ill from olive oil poisoning from a restaurant

Guilty as charged aracer as my edit almost covers. Fat finger cutting and pasting skills to the fore!

Sandwich - Member

It's good stuff from Lidl and Aldi, recommended by family members to me many years ago and it has the aP seal of approval too.

I don't doubt it but the whole point of paying for expensive olive oil is to get expensive olive oil- quality isn't relevant. You could give them Castrol and they'd be happy as long as it was expensive genuine castrol

At which point we come back to the question of whether anybody actually pays for a specific brand of olive oil in a restaurant. Paying for olive oil I can believe, but a specific brand/quality? Maybe that's only something which is an issue if you're on an EU expense account.

Though having checked back, that's exactly the point you were making earlier, so you appear not to be able to make your mind up whether you're for or against this.

I don't think the point of the regulation is to prevent another case of that 1981 dodgy oil problem. At least if it is, it's taken an amazingly long time for the authorities to act.

I think it's more about propping up manufacturers of branded olive oil . Which is why there isn't a similar regulation about ketchup - the ketchup manufacturers haven't done the right lobbying in Brussels (yet).

Was that at me Aracer, or Sandwich? Looks a bit like it's at me but I'm not sure how my opinion could be unclear so, maybe not

How do people feel about vinaigrette 😉

seems odd as usually you get both with your bread.
in similar containers

It's clearly just lazy journalism, copied the story from a Euro-phobic right wing rag. The clue is right there for everyone to see.

This will affect us. It is about choice and freedom of choice. We buy our oil, which we have selected from a farm in Spain, to serve our customers," he told the [b]Daily Telegraph[/b]

Tamper proof seems perfectly sensible to me.. Comapre with wine. Do you want yours brought out in a generic carafe,if you bought anything other than house wine.

I used to work in oneof the better hotels in the midlands we routinely poured all te raming half bottles of any sort into a bareel which became the house wine.

Are you suggesting the story is untrue, MSP? Of course you could always select from the links to sources at the bottom of the page - Reuters or Independent any good?

It was aimed at you, Northwind, as I realised that the point I'd just made in reply to you was almost exactly the same as one you'd previously made - maybe a bit unfair to accuse you of not being able to make your mind up on that basis, but it did seem rather strange!

Tamper proof seems perfectly sensible to me.. Comapre with wine. Do you want yours brought out in a generic carafe,if you bought anything other than house wine.

Do you think it perfectly sensible for it to be illegal to serve wine in a carafe if that's what the customer wants? Personally I'm rather less bothered about the specific olive oil I'm getting than the wine.

Are you suggesting the story is untrue, MSP?

I am suggesting that they have probably twisted the intent of the regulation, and found the most obscure and unlikely "victims" in order to fit with an anti EU mindset.

On the other hand the whole thing could just be a pack of lies, like straight bananas and lagging steam trains, and other such nonsense stories.

Well why don't you check out some of the other sources then? Here are some quotes from one of them:

German newspaper Sueddetsche Zeitung described the plan as "the weirdest decision since the legendary curvy cucumber regulation", referring to now-defunct EU rules on the shape of fruit and vegetables sold in supermarkets.

But Enzo Sica, owner of Italian restaurant Creche des Artistes close to the EU quarter of Brussels, said the rules would prevent him from buying his extra virgin olive oil direct from a traditional supplier in Italy.

Maybe a link to the actual regulation? Some actual facts rather than commentary that supports your own viewpoint.

Olive oil fraud appears to be a multi million pound business, and I expect the regulation is to stop large scale miss selling, rather than stopping small specialist products being sold in posh restaurants. But that doesn't make much of a story.

Well why don't you check out some of the other sources then? Here are some quotes from one of them:

Here's the independent:

The Commission bolstered their defences, adding that 27 member nations backed the move, with Portugal having implemented the ban since 2006.

Farmers from across the continent welcomed the move, with the EU hoping that citizens will be guaranteed to receive the product they asked for.

“This will ensure a high-quality product for consumers,” said Rafael Sanchez de Puerta of the Copa-Cogecas federation. Also, by displaying the name, origins and storing conditions, “this will help to preserve the image of olive oil.”

The EU is the world's biggest producer of olive oil, accounting for up to 70 per cent of global output, the Commission said.

I do see why a few people here have a bee in their bonnet about this. It's not about the oil, it's the less regulation/small government nonsense that oh so helped us stop the banks from going bankrupt for example. oh, hang on...

Do you think it perfectly sensible for it to be illegal to serve wine in a carafe if that's what the customer wants? Personally I'm rather less bothered about the specific olive oil I'm getting than the wine.

Yes, actually i do. On the second point it is difficult to argue against that. You have a good point. Perhaps EU policy should be based directly on your experiences and tastes.

Olive oil fraud appears to be a multi million pound business, and I expect the regulation is to stop large scale miss selling, rather than stopping small specialist products being sold in posh restaurants.

If that's what they wanted to do, they might have been better issuing a regulation which did something to prevent large scale miss selling rather than just affecting posh restaurants.

“This will ensure a high-quality product for consumers,” said Rafael Sanchez de Puerta of the Copa-Cogecas federation.

Well he would say that wouldn't he?

What exactly does this have to do with the banks?

Perhaps EU policy should be based directly on your experiences and tastes.

Presumably you only use restaurants with an oil list where you can select the specific variety you want? I'd recommend not coming here, as there don't seem to be too many restaurants which would suit your needs - maybe my experiences and tastes are more common than you think?

it's not about posh restaurants,
in every cafe, restaurant cerveceria etc in spain you get olive oil for your salad, etc.

It is a ludicrous law that will not prevent the dilution of oils by the distributors same way current legislation doesnt stop horse meat getting in to the food supply.

but its not going to change anything and Im not sad about it, however my original point was that the media will regurgitate stories like this when it comes to EU bashing which fuels votes for UKIP etc.

..... same way current legislation doesnt stop horse meat getting in to the food supply.

Surely if you're going down that road we shouldn't bother making it a legal requirement that meat be correctly labelled then ?

Just let manufacturers/suppliers bung anything they fancy in their packaging and let the consumers decide if they have noticed ....... is the logical conclusion of your argument.

Which is ironic as you use the term "plain stupid" in the title of your thread.

- maybe my experiences and tastes are more common than you think?

Oh certainly not! I have little doubt that your experiences and tastes are very common indeed!

ernie are you just a ****tard
what i mean is that the problem is not really with restaurants putting small bottles of olive oil on the table, same as supermarkets didnt think it a problem putting foods on the shelves they believed were what they said they were.

the fraud is happening further up the supply chain and regulation - inspection - enforcement there is what's needed this to me is nonsense.
and serves no purpose.

the fraud is happening further up the supply chain and regulation - inspection - enforcement there is what's needed

How do you know where in the supply chain olive oil fraud is occurring ? Have you got some evidence that restaurants have been exonerated of any fraudulent olive oil related activities ?

And how would [b][i]not[/i][/b] having tamper-proof packaging help 'enforcement further up the supply chain' ?
I would have thought that not knowing where the stuff comes from makes it pretty much impossible to enforce.

.

ernie are you just a ****

Based on your logic up until now, I'm going to take that as a compliment.

cant argue with you as you clearly have no reasoning ability

Well my "reasoning abilities" are clearly very different to yours.

I completely fail to see how [u]not[/u] having tamper-proof packaging will make it possible to stop fraud "further up the supply chain", something which you claim is vital.

I'm more worried about the cost of coming up with this legislation than anything else, unless it will be recouped in fines after heavilly enforcing this, prohibition style.

Argh

Charlie think about it for a minute, the issue is not with restaurants passing off cheap olive oil in bertolli containers, the restaurants are not using branded containers.
the secure packaging by the manufacturers is a non starter if you think of your tescos lasagne having beef in it only to find out it contains horse.
the packaging doesnt tell you it contains horse it wouldnt would it.
the problem for the olive oil industry is from the manufacturers passing off oil as extra virgin when it isnt and the problem there is on an industrial scale as the big problem comes from the same issues that the meat industry had with horse meat, the wholesale market is where the fraud is happening.
so even the big companies who are selling what they claim to be italian extra virgin olive oil are not selling what they say they are selling because its been sourced elsewhere and that is the problem for the industry but they are not tackling that problem with this legislation.

I hope that is reasoning enough for ernie to understand i hope its clear, this is the industry trying to protect its self interest and nothing to do with hygiene and restaurants being fraudulent.

the fraud is happening further up the supply chain and regulation - inspection - enforcement there is what's needed

Well I expect that is what the regulation is about, but some typical anti EU journalist has extrapolated the regulations and thought, well we can make this regulation sound like they are stopping olive oil being served in restaurants from open containers, ask some restaurants loaded questions and get some loony eyed responses to suit our editorial polemic.

The EU is dead right to bring this in.

Unscrupulous restauranteurs have been using unbranded olive oil for straightening illegal bent bananas.

MSP you are completely wrong
the legislation incorporates changes to labelling but specifically stops restaurants using open bottles.

so its not an anti EU agenda its the EU passing regulation to support big business in the same way lobby groups in America lobby to get laws passed to support their agenda.

I love how DEFRA disagree with it but didnt have the balls to vote and abstained and now say they will work with the restaurant indusry like how will they do anything.

The problem is that retaurants pass off any old olive oil as something else. If i go into a restaurant and order a bottle of wine, it is because i've seen which 'house' it is from, what kind of grape it is and what year it is. If the waiter then brings out something different the i haven't got waht i expected. If you order a steak and get a stew, it's the same meat but completely different. Why are folks struggling to see that in olive oil? The situation now is that mostly you are served a house oil and this ususally ok, same as house wine is usually ok and sometimes very good. But other times, i want to order a particualr waine and a particular oil and i want to be sure that is what i get. What is so wrong with that?

when have you ever ordered a specific brand of olive oil or been offered a list of olive oils for your salad/bread etc.

maybe i'm missing something here

when have you ever ordered a specific brand of olive oil or been offered a list of olive oils for your salad/bread etc.

maybe i'm missing something here

What? When i go to a decent restaurant and i order an oil with my bread!

And You would no more order a 'brand' of oil than you would a 'brand'of wine

really, all the excellent restaurants Ive been to don't bother, can you advise any that do Im just curious.

is there a brand you prefer or a year maybe?

the restaurants here in Madrid just give you oil in a unbranded bottle, no need to select a brand as it's all good certainly good enough.

is there a brand you prefer or a year maybe?

No, can you tell me the same for a wine you like?

I ask as I thought as per your previous post you would have a favourite or preference, and I was wondering what these decent restaurants were where you choose an oil to go with your breads as opposed to simply having the oil on the table or a pot coming with the bread.

as for wine I have become a huge convert to Tagonius the Crianza 2007, its a local wine that was recommended to me and I have to say I look out for it where I can.

I bet manufacturers of catering salt and pepper pots are crapping their pants.....

.......and that bloody great pepper mill, much favoured in Italian restaurants, will soon be a thing of the past, as will the bowl of parmesan 😐

MSP you are completely wrong
the legislation incorporates changes to labelling but specifically stops restaurants using open bottles.

Go on then, show me the legislation.

What the planned amendments say

Ban on cruets:

- Oils made available to the final consumer in hotels, restaurants and pubs and bars shall be packed in containers equipped with an opening system which cannot be resealed after it has first been opened, together with a protection system preventing them from being reused once the contents indicated on the label have been finished

Clearer label information:

- Mandatory details shall be grouped together within the same field of vision, either on the same label or on several labels attached to the same container, or directly on the container. The characters in the text must be equal to or greater than 2 mm, if the nominal volume of the container is equal to or less than 25 cl; 3 mm, if the nominal volume of the container is greater than 25 cl but equal to or less than 100 cl; 4 mm, if the nominal volume of the container is greater than 100 cl.

For details of these and other changes planned, see the amendments to Regulation (EU) No 29/2012 on marketing standards for olive oil.

EU regulations, aimed partly to protect me from restaurants reusing the oil bowl or sauce tray in a curry house, after I've dipped my bread in for the next customer is not the reason I would consider voting for UKIP.

The main reason people vote UKIP is because they are racist bigots whom really want to vote BNP but don't have the stones.

EU regulations, aimed partly to protect me from restaurants reusing the oil bowl or sauce tray in a curry house

You dip your bread in olive oil in a curry house? If not you're out of luck, as it seems the asian condiment industry hasn't yet managed to successfully lobby the EU.

MSP - are you really such an EU fanboi that you reckon any negative story about it must be made up?

Charlie - not going to even weigh in with any olive variety and region recommendations? Personally I'm quite partial to a nice Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc.

The situation now is that mostly you are served a house oil and this ususally ok, same as house wine is usually ok and sometimes very good. But other times, i want to order a particualr waine and a particular oil and i want to be sure that is what i get. What is so wrong with that?

You still seem to be missing the point that this regulation will force you to be served a branded (yes that is really what it will be in most cases) oil, rather than a house oil, when you seem to think a house oil is fine (I note you also seem to have changed your mind over house wine). The vast majority of us common oiks are perfectly happy having the house oil, but it seems that's not allowed. I'm sure the tiny number of pretentious restaurants where you can order a particular oil could already serve it in a sealed bottle if they wanted to, and the [s]EU beurocrats on expense accounts[/s] people who eat at them could easily boycott those which don't if they think it a problem.

as it seems the asian condiment industry hasn't yet managed to successfully lobby the EU.

Why does tamper proof stop the small producer from doing this?

are you really such an EU fanboi that you reckon any negative story about it must be made up?

this regulation will force you to be served a branded (yes that is really what it will be in most cases) oil, rather than a house oil

For example- PS WTF is a house oil ? Its not like they are making their own out the back they are buying it form somewhere

PS anyone who does not get upset at the EU for everything is a fan boy these days