[Closed] Employer being an ass. Advice please.

Yup. We were fine in our MSR but there were lots in Tesco tents that weren't

Only year I've been, we had an early morning return ferry but packed up the night before & slept in some of the abandoned tents so we didn't have to pack up in the morning, a week of rain was more than my mates triumph could take, couldn't even bump it down to union mills 🙁

specific company rules about that time period,

There aren't. Her manager is shitting himself because he might have to do some work, and, err, manage the situation.
That's about it.

They'd find a way to cover if she gave them a month's notice...of leaving.

She can't book until January

Well if all goes to plan I might see you at the TT. I will be the one wearing a hat 😯 My first time there. BTW I am self employed so I will have to sack myself. 😀

MSP - no chance at all it would be constructive dismissal. Ridiculous suggestion. the company have an absolute right to refuse holidays without giving a reason.

It wouldn't be constructive dismissal in itself, but as an example of behaviour wouldn't look good for the company.

They do not have a right to refuse holiday without a reason. You are legally entitled to holidays, some rules may be set out in your contract, but they cannot refuse your legal entitlements without a good reason.

It does sound harsh unless there's some politics going on in the background, but you should also get approval before booking stuff.

As a more constructive solution how about a "What can I do to make this work for everyone?" conversation with her boss?

Who do you think gets the best result...

Someone who comes wading in with demands and a whole load of Kevin the Teenager attitude

OR

Someone who says - I see your issue - I don't agree entirely but I figured out how we can make it work and subatantially address your concerns.

I'd just go in and start smashing stuff up.

Let us know how you got on.

From your description of her working conditions it sounds like they need her, and are getting a bloody good deal too. That being the case i'd push for a definite decision and tell them that if refused I would have no alternative but to take my talents elsewhere. It doesn't have to sound like a threat, but it is. so only do it if you can back it up.
EDIT: When I say you I mean her of course, its not your place to go fighting her battles unless specifically asked.

MSP - 100% wrong - holidays are taken at mutual consent - they cannot refuse you to take your holidays but the time at which you take them has to be agreed by both sides. YOu do not have a legal entitlement to take them when you wish - only that yo have leave and it must be granted within the leave year

If an employer does not want you to take a particular week they do not have to give a reason- although a good boss would and you cannot demand which weeks you take.

Depends on jursidiction.
My understanding here (not UK) is that they can refuse, but must provide a good reason ( eg for operational reasons) for doing so.
Both parties would normally not take the mick.

If the employer's reason is "we're not sure what the schedule and cover situation is going to be like", then the employer needs a new manager.

you do not have the right to determine when you take your annual leave.

https://worksmart.org.uk/work-rights/hours-and-holidays/holidays/my-employer-will-not-agree-my-request-holidays-summer

My employer tried to take my holidays away after them being approved for 10 months last year. They had business case. (Due to paying off loads of folk we were short staffed)How ever they also came at me 2 days too late under my contract and id already been shafted by them and had done 3 months straight between oz and africa.on operations i needed my holiday more than i needed the job.

I went on holiday didnt feel guilty

I still work here.

Pete, you sound like the sort of chap who shouldn't be messed with. I reckon you need to go and pay her manager a visit.
Round up a couple of mates, put your leathers on and ride down to her office on your bikes.
I reckon you need to sit outside with the engines running and wait till Manag-her leaves the office for home. As he's walking to his car, you and your mates want to ride toward him then start circling him, revving your engines loudly.
He'll be cacking himself, his guard will be down; anything you request from him, he'll make it happen...."otherwise, there'll be trouble"
Everyone knows not to mess with a man in leathers.

That is mean. You should be able to book hols a far ahead as you want. Get another job.

Why should you?

[img] [/img]

😀

😆 @taylforth !

Drac - Moderator

If they can't organise cover when notified 6 months in advance then IMO that's a problem. I wouldn't be pleased at all and that alone would probably make me look for a new job. Appreciate every industry is different etc etc.

You can't create cover if it's not there no matter how much notice.

Then that's a stupid position for a company to be in and would be an even bigger problem for me. What if there was an emergency/illness etc that required similar time off? If someone is so critical to an organisation that leave can't be booked 5-6 months in advance (refused for unspecified reason?) then something is really wrong. I'd love to take a look at their business continuity/contingency plan and their risk register.

Pete and The Gang

Then that's a stupid position for a company to be in and would be an even bigger problem for me. What if there was an emergency/illness etc that required similar time off?

No it isn't. A company should have enough to cover for holidays and a little extra for emergencies. Allowing people to take holidays as when they insist causes issues for those requiring emergency leave.

TUC site

Unfortunately, under the Working Time Regulations 1998 (WTR), you do not have the right to determine when you take your annual leave. Therefore, if your employer has a genuine business reason, it does not have to agree to your dates.

The Regulations allow your employer to require you to give notice, equal to twice the length of the holiday requested. Your employer can also insist that you take your holiday at a particular time.

Can my employer make me take my holidays when they want, rather than when I'd like?

Yes. You do not necessarily have the right to choose when you take your holiday, and your employer can tell you when to take your leave.

It's for good reason leave has to be approved, and any half decent manager would never decline leave if they can help it, but if you have a team of spotty teenagers who all want to book the same weekend off for a music festival or something, then it's obvious that it's not possible and some will be declined, for genuine operational reasons.

Hence why holidays need approval.

Seems there's more going on here, did she seek approval or just take it for granted that a lot of notice is justified ,approved or not?

In reality it's often a negotiation, but there's no legal standing in demanding certain dates off.

Whatever the legal position any company that won't let you take a holiday when they have been given 5 months notice is probably not worth working for anyway . I would try to talk to them and explain the position and if there was no resolution I would be looking to be in a new job by the time the TT came round .

The fact is a lot of companies can't afford to pay two extra full time staff at a cost of say £50k for the pair a year just to act as floaters to cover random leave requests.

Because most of the time you'd basically be overstaffed, and losing money paying people to do nothing for a lot of the time.

Random? The same weeks 5 years in a row with 5months notice. Hardly random is it. You don't need 2 full time floaters ffs. Just a bit of sensible planning, OT, rota changes etc. Different if there was a critical event due to take place over the same period, but why not just be upfront and tell her that.

I digress though, 5 months notice is plenty... If it's approved and not taken as an assumption.

But it sounds like the op took it for granted rather than getting it approved formally.

Whether the manager has a personal issue or is just a knob, who's to say.

It is a bit more random than every year it's the same weeks every 5th year . Still totally unacceptable from the employer though .

At HMPS we get our leave apps in September, in which we apply for 'block leave' from March the following year till February the year after (the leave I'm currently on was granted in October 2015) If that makes sense?
We booked a cottage on South Uist for June this year before our leave apps came out & luckily I/we were granted the request, If we hadn't there would've been some right shift swapping going on!

Any company doesn't have to grant leave exactly when you demand it.

It is a bit more random than every year it's the same weeks every 5th year .

So it is, I misunderstood the OP.

If we hadn't there would've been some right shift swapping going on!

Exactly. There are other options such as swapping holidays with another employee. Maybe someone else wanted those weeks off and have had to wait 5 years to get them. Hardly seems fair taking the same seeks off every year.

Out of interest- has she been given a reason why she can't have that time off?

Today she tells me they're being difficult about it. "Not happy with you taking the time off. We're busy" etc

maybe someone doesn't want to go....again... 😉

It's the same weeks every fifth year .

Some 'interesting' assumptions and statements; whether or not 5 months notice is 'reasonable' is for the employer to determine and to describe it is unacceptable is just hot air.
The same time every fifth year is irrelevant; it's for the employee to give the employer as much notice as practically possible to maximise their chance of getting what they want.
My earlier post covered this - talk to employer as soon as you know what you want to do even though the booking system is not open yet; it doesn't guarantee you get what you want but it shows consideration and a mature attitude.
For the posters saying - take an extended sickie, get arsey, employer is being unreasonable etc I suggest you get real and get some understanding of how the world of work really works; have you ever run a business or managed a team?

What Frank said. Some time ago I had to get specific approval from a prison governor to approve leave for a years hence. You can't just expect leave when YOU demand it.

It's the same weeks every fifth year .

Oh yeah. Well there's always next year.

So anyway, I can't sleep thinking about this....
But it turn out there's more.
MrsPP mentioned this when we booked the ferry last June. No problem then.
She checked again at roughly the time when the bill for the ferry arrived. No problem then.
She checked again when she put the request through. No problem then.

All that was verbal with the same person thats now being an arse, but as holidays are all booked electronically she cannot book for June until her allowance is released in January. She booked 2 long weekends and this 1.5 weeks at the same time, manager sat on it for 3 weeks before saying anything.
Also, she's even found someone to cover for her. Not her job to do that, like, but she still did.
The bloke's a dickhead, the chances are he's just lost the only person that he can't seem to do without.

Tbh I feel sympathy for you, we work 365/24 and my new shift everyone has a family and Christmas is right in the middle of our rotation, so 7 people applied and 2 will get it, there will be butt hurt all round this year

That's not sounding good. Is there another manager she can go to?

Is the manager a TT fan by any chance???
Maybe it will be busy that week because he has a holiday booked...
(TT or otherwise)

I'd love to hear the other side of this...

TBH it sounds like more than enough notice has been given to accommodate the request, and whilst the employer is within their rights, it certainly sounds unreasonable.

Unless they know that that month/week(s) they are getting a sudden rush of work in, new big contract or something, then they know they have to accommodate leave "sometime" so might as well plan for it then.

If it really is as op portrays it, then I'd be doing what they are, looking for another job...
But I also would be (politely) giving the minimum notice possible once I found one, or before the holiday if I hadn't and was prepared to quit.

Sounds a bit tough esp with that notice
As an employer it can be hard, I do my best to accommodate everyone's requests but when basically your whole team want the school hols off it's not always possible. Christmas was the same this year and I took one for the team and worked right through to free up a space for someone who has had a tough year. Saying that I did have to refuse two leave requests for summer as simply don't have any capacity to cover what we know needs done, the requesters left it for 6 months to ask and weren't over the moon. I can't keep everyone happy all the time. If you rang me up I'd explain it to you and wonder why your wife can't hold an adult conversation about it.