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You need to make a plan, start a new thread called "help my wife get a new job", because there is nothing left to discuss here.
[i]As an employer it can be hard[/i]
Especially when you've made all your staff redundant and are relying on 1 person to fill in for them.
Teej with his shitty rules and regs. Stick them where the sun don't shine - PP didn't say "Employer breaking employment law" he said "Employer being an arse" (well, he said ass, but you know).. Where's your great URL links to prove that wrong?
Given that notice a good manager would have been more accommodating, unless there is a very good business reason why that time is not acceptable.
It would be interesting to see their justification for repeatedly indicating that there wasn't a problem, then denying the leave request.
DezB - loads of folk making all sorts of weird claims about the legal position and calling it "constructive dismissal" etc. Those links from the TUC state clearly the legal position which is that you cannot decide unilaterally when you take your holidays. The employer may well be being an arse but they are also acting within the law
I asked before but still no reply from PP - have they given her a reason for rejecting her request (such as 'we are starting a big project that week' or 'x also wants to take that week and as you have had that time off every year for the last y years, it's someone else's turn' or anything like that?
The law has F.A. to do with this, its about Mrs PP' manager acting responsibly and valuing their staff.
MrsPP mentioned this when we booked the ferry last June. No problem then.
She checked again at roughly the time when the bill for the ferry arrived. No problem then.
She checked again when she put the request through. No problem then.All that was verbal with the same person thats now being an arse, but as holidays are all booked electronically she cannot book for June until her allowance is released in January. She booked 2 long weekends and this 1.5 weeks at the same time, manager sat on it for 3 weeks before saying anything.
Also, she's even found someone to cover for her. Not her job to do that, like, but she still did.
Legally yes the manager can and does have the authoritor to refuse, but this looks unreasonable. PP id be suggesting to Mrs PP to inform her manager that she wants to escalate this.
Yes, fair enough TJ, as he also said:
"[i]But legally, where does she stand?[/i]"
@johndoh: "We're busy"
I'd be writing down details of the dates (if poss) when your wife informed her manager about her plans. He sounds a dick from the info presented, but you, PP, come across as very angry and that isn't going to help resolve the situation.
Your wife should escalate this up the chain in writing.
At the very least her manager could have said, " I am sorry, we cannot gurantee you will be granted holiday", or given her a reason why things have changed.
The law has F.A. to do with this
But PP also asked.
But legally, where does she stand? My guess is she can't be fired for it
At the very least her manager could have said, " I am sorry, we cannot gurantee you will be granted holiday", or given her a reason why things have changed.
Yup. But maybe they did we have no idea.
Legally depends on T&Cs. Verbal or email acceptance is acceptance unless t&c states has to be via Hr system
[b]Drac[/b] indeed
Andy - this has everything to do with the law. Manager may be acting unreasonably but, based on PP's posts, also within the law.
PP - why does your wife not email her manager confirming their previous discussions stating that there had been no indication of a possible problem and she would like to clearly understand why there now appears to be a problem. Also state that she had tried to be fair/reasonable/considerate by making him aware of plans and it would have been appropriate for him to raise possible concerns/problems during one one of those discussions. Request manager to confirm - by email - his understanding of the discussions you refer to.
Keep it simple and focussed.
Where does manager sit in company hierarchy?
What size of company?
Do they have HR dept?
Does your wife have a 'transferable skills set'?
How strong is the job market in your area?
..How important is your wife to the TT trip? 🙂
It could be that the manager has been trying all this time to arrange things so that Mrs PP could have that time off but things haven't worked out. The alternative is that they could said "No" up front. That might have been clearer of course but we can't tell from one side of the conversation.
she doesn't get paid anywhere near what she's worth, she's covering for people earning 2-3 times her salary
If this is really the case then she should get another job that pays her appropriately. Why would anyone do this?
Are sure her boss isn't trying to get rid of her?
He must realise how important this annual trip is to you both and if he refuses the leave how much this will upset your wife.
Why would he upset an employee that works for 30% of the going rate?
Money isn't everything. Mrs PP may like the work and the company, plus there may be other factors such as convenience for home etc that are very compelling reasons for staying where you are. Sure, we would all like more cash but it is more complex than that.
It is tricky in this situation without knowing all the facts but it does seem unreasonable based on what we have heard from PP. There's no evidence from the information so far that this is a business that has key periods that limit what leave can be taken (eg taking leave in December when working in retail, or leave in April/May when working for an accounting firm) so, on the face of it, the boss is being a bit of a ****.
on the face of it, the boss is being a bit of a ****.
Maybe he is. It's allowed, unfortunately.
she's covering for people earning 2-3 times her salary
So she's showing herself to be a bit of a pushover. They maybe wonder what else they can get away with.
Has she considered escalating to HR for a formal reason if here boss won't give her one.
I assume that she has enough nous that she's not trying to go on holiday when theirs a major event taking place that she's closely connected to.
she doesn't get paid anywhere near what she's worth, she's covering for people earning 2-3 times her salary
This is a pretty meaningless statement- what's 'covering' mean- looking after their phone while they're on holiday, making recommendations to them, making decisions for them?
It's very unusual in organisations to find such a salary spread (amongst permanent staff) without much of a jump in grades.
tjagain
Those links from the TUC state clearly the legal position which is that you cannot decide unilaterally when you take your holidays. The employer may well be being an arse but they are also acting within the law
Except OP's missus had her leave verbally approved prior to spending money. That changes things quite a bit.Might have helped if it was in the OP, but never mind.
MrsPP mentioned this when we booked the ferry last June. No problem then.
She checked again at roughly the time when the bill for the ferry arrived. No problem then.
She checked again when she put the request through. No problem then.
The employer is entitled to cancel leave (which is what they have done - verbal approval is binding) but if they don't have a good business reason for doing so then everything gets a bit murkier. Estoppel could easily be claimed and there's a stronger argument to constructive dismissal if other options are available to the employer.
This needs escalated above the manager's head. Could submit a grievance too.
Leave. Simple
Could submit a grievance too.
Because that always ends well. 🙄
+1
Crap idea
verbal approval is not binding when you have clear procedures in place as the company does- and anyway the "verbal agreement" is not actually agreement from my reading of the comments"
It really grinds my gears to be defending bad employers but the law here is clear and PPs wife has no grounds for any action nor has she been dealt with unfairly
I disagree, the pond is already poisoned now, and it seems to me she's been reasonable. Sounds a bit grim now we have some details.
Given the politics she can either look for a new job or suck it up.. either way, I'd put it to HR in the frame of a formal grievance, I.e it was verbally approved by x on dates y and z and has now been withdrawn, leaving you financially out of pocket.
She's basically going to have to formally call her manager out as a liar.
But I appreciate she may not have the will for that.
Sorry, misread on the first page.
nor has she been dealt with unfairly
You're probably right on the legal front, but you seriously don't believe someone (allegedly) grossly underpaid being denied a holiday request with five months' notice and having arranged cover is being treated unfairly? Jesus, remind me never to work for you.
Official notice period here is two weeks, but before now I've rung my boss at 8am and gone "can I have today off please?" and got it. Thinking about it, in all my working life I don't think I've ever had leave requests rejected, not without very good reason anyway.
If I were so critical to the business that they couldn't do without me for a few days with five months' notice, I'd expect that to be reflected very highly indeed in my salary.
OP, in your OH's position I'd be spending the next five months jobseeking with a vengeance. Life's too short to work for unappreciative nobbers.
She's basically going to have to formally call her manager out as a liar.
Unless I missed something he hasn't lied.
The only practical, sensible solution, if she wants to carry on working there, is go and see the boss, sit down and explain the situation, how important this leave is to her and how much she will lose financially if she can't attend.
If the boss cannot give a reasonable explanation why the leave is being denied and won't budge, then it would be quite a clear signal that he wants rid of her.
After that go to HR and escalate but don't expect the working environment to improve.
Start looking for another job.
I agree with cougar, I'm 100% happy to grant leave even with no notice, IF it's doable, it's less leave I have to worry about rostering in when it might be more tricky.
But that doesn't look like the situation we have here...they either want her out, or she's so operationally vital they can't do without her..with 5 months notice.
Meanwhile Mrs PP is chatting to her friends "He is trying to drag me to the bloody TT again, he went and booked it without telling me so I've tried saying that I can't get the time off work, but now I think he is going to come in and talk to my manager, what do I do?"
how do they cover her leave on the other dates?
Meanwhile Mrs PP is chatting to her friends "He is trying to drag me to the bloody TT again, he went and booked it without telling me so I've tried saying that I can't get the time off work, but now I think he is going to come in and talk to my manager, what do I do?"
Bravo! Best post so far!! 😉
have you checked mumsnet?
Our underwriters are banned from taking holiday over Xmas as its renewals time and therefore everyone is needed in the office. Busiest day in the office last year was the 23rd, it was bedlam. Everyone accepts it, its rubbish but then the summers are normally really quiet.
There's two issues here.
One is that your wife's employer won't grant her the leave she wants.
The second is your wife's employer is an arse.
Issue 1: not much you can do about it. Her boss can decline her taking leave if he has a valid reason. If not, maybe a trip to HR to discuss it, saying that you need a break because you're so overworked. Just taking it anyway despite being told you can't have it will result in disciplinary action and possible dismissal and she won't have a leg to stand on.
Issue 2: Either go down the formal route with HR and see what can be done regarding working hours, pay and so on. Or get the CV out there and start interviewing for a better place to work.
Or go to the doctors and get signed off long term with stress...
Cougar - "unfairly" as in the meaning of it in employment law.
I've been a union branch convener and a senior manage with hire and fire power. I can see this from both sides and my history on here includes a lot of advice to workers being treated unfairly.
In this case unless other workers have been treated differently then there is nothing "unfair" in the legal sense about it
Right. I got 4.5 hours sleep last night. I've not read everything above but
I asked before but still no reply from PP - have they given her a reason for rejecting her request (such as 'we are starting a big project that week'
It's the end of quarter or something. She has to run some reports, basically. They've got rid of nearly everyone else who can do this. (IT company....) so that's her problem it seems.
Her manager is generally not a bad bloke. I've not met him but he seems to value her (mostly) but her workload is too high. He's not flatly refused this leave as yet apparently but it's not something we can move. It's not school holidays.
She's been upset about it at home more than once. She's had to work 4 Christmasses in a row because everyone else had to take it off because they've got kids.
We're going to drink tea and do her CV tonight.
Honestly, if she comes home tonight and says she's quit I'll be happy. She won't but I wish she would.
Maybe others that could cover have already booked holiday in June?
My wife wanted time off in March but was told not possible so she's away now - not ideal but no complaint.
We had a contractor who's been with us for 3 years who booked a holiday in Dec then asked for time off. It was problematic for us but agreed it in the end. Unfortunately he came back to get given notice on his just renewed contract - I think the holiday was the last straw really.
So employer not doing anything wrong IMO but if they're not good people to work for anyway then I'd be interested to see if I really could get a doubling in salary by moving jobs....
Grumpysculler - PP has not said that leave was verbally agreed; 'no problem' could mean several things and without knowing clearly how the manager in question responded to Mrs PP you're speculating.
'No problem' could mean - I told manager and he said......nothing; thanks for letting me know; ok; yes, that should be ok; yes, that will be ok so submit your request when the system opens and I will approve.
The absence of a negative does not mean a positive so unless he unequivocally said 'yes' and that can be proven, nothing changes.
Its a real bummer and I sympathise despite my comments about the legalities of the situation.
Polishing up the CV seems a good idea.
How I would approach this:
Back to the boss stating ( very politely and meekly) that she really wants to go on this trip, explain the reasons for the asking prior to the leave window opening and that she booked on the basis of his answer to this and that she is now dismayed at the response from him, feels devalued and taken for granted and in the light of this will be looking for another job. Do this more in sadness than in anger. Then back up this meeting with an email and then print off the email and replies.
It's the end of quarter or something. She has to run some reports, basically. They've got rid of nearly everyone else who can do this.
You don't have a leg to stand on. Sorry.
She's had to work 4 Christmasses in a row because everyone else had to take it off because they've got kids.
Do you mean Christmas day? If so, that's shite and unfair. I'd of told them to do one.
Manager says yes in the beginning.
Their boss then says no.
Manager has to retract verbal, non-binding agreement.
PP pays for holiday before being 100% sure.
Plan backfires and manager is the bad guy.
It really is a non-issue.
Or go to the doctors and get signed off long term with stress...
As an employer myself, I find it quite distasteful that anyone could think this is a fair way to resolve an issue in the workplace.
It's the end of quarter or something. She has to run some reports, basically. They've got rid of nearly everyone else who can do this. (IT company....)
Can she not suggest she does the majority of it before she goes then handover the last few days to someone else?
Maybe others that could cover have already booked holiday in June
No. Nobody else has anything booked.
Can she not suggest she does the majority of it before she goes then handover the last few days to someone else?
As I already said, she's found someone to cover her but the manager isn't happy with that. Dunno why.
---------------
I've got a sneaky suspicion it'll be approved shortly.
It really is a non-issue.
Not for PP and his missus it's not.
Then a bit of negotiation should be in order to ensure someone can cover - depends how demanding running the reports is I suppose.
Their boss then says no
No it's him directly.
As I already said, she's found someone to cover her but the manager isn't happy with that. Dunno why.
Perhaps the manager isn't confident about allowing this other person complete the important task?