At the end of the day, the primary reason for me (and probably most other people) is that they're just too expensive at the moment.
I've got £3500 left on the loan I took out to buy my 2017 Skoda Superb, I've had it for 3 years currently and I'll probably keep it for another 5 years at least. Maybe by that time EV's will be under £20k for a decent model with close to 300 mile range... 🤨🤣
Although it does pain me that I have £18k's worth of car sitting on the drive sitting nothing most of the time - but having looked into the alternatives (hiring for holidays etc) the costs are stupidly high. And at the moment it's not actually lost much, if any value since I bought it.
And for those long trips that I mostly do in the car (my average journey this year must be well over 100 miles with multiple 5-700 mile journeys making up most of my miles) I'm not sure I could live without my creature comforts now. 1st world issues, I know...
Not buying a new car and buying used makes better environmental sense
I think there was a study that showed this wasn't the case (surprisingly). basically, your 3 year old phev will go to someone who offloads their 60mpg euro6 diesel to someone who offloads their 40mpg old diesel who gets rid of their 25mpg 2.5l petrol mondeo which was getting pricey to repair. So rather than going from using, say a 80g/km phev car to a 60g/km ev, the country's fleet is going from a 200g/km car to a 60g/km car. That saving works out pretty quickly in real terms.
What it does seem is some people want to say how as it works for them in their very specific circumstances how it should work for ALL of us.
I think that's just the chip on your shoulder. I'm not saying it'll work for eveyone right now - this is fairly obvious and does not need pointing out, really - I'm saying that:
1. Range anxiety need not be a thing if you plan and have half a brain
2. My circumstances aren't all that specific. I just have a driveway.
3. There is no need to dismiss the entire concept just because some people cannot afford them yet, or some people do not have a drive. Lots of people do and can afford one.
4. Infrastructure will come - it'll have to, otherwise no-one will be able to go anywhere in 20 years' time which clearly no-one wants to happen and will clearly become a huge issue pretty quickly.
Many of us don't have access to Lease via salary sacrifice - a nice little benefit for those that do from the Government. - Yes that would indeed make sense, and especially if you are in a higher tax band.
I buy and keep my cars, but usually buy at 1-3 years old, then keep them a long time because I look after my cars. £35k for a lower end EV is a heck of alot of money for a tin box.
We're in the position of having plenty of off-road parking and could have a charger fitted without much fuss, or charge off mains overnight, I've got potential access to chargers at work too.
We would only really need a small 4/5 seater type car with minimal boot space, maybe 100 miles range absolute tops, 70-80 would probably be adequate, most of our driving is within a 20 mile radius of home, often less. Essentially all we'd want would be a "runabout". But even then your looking at disproportionate prices both new and used.
And the market seems to be going towards bigger and bigger EVs not small town cars, which EVs probably suit best.
And the market seems to be going towards bigger and bigger EVs not small town cars, which EVs probably suit best.
there's already the zoe, leaf, mini, 208, corsa, fiat 500 and the honda e. Seems like a good selection.
Yeah I think it's just the car market [I]in general[/I] going towards bigger cars (the stereotypical Chelsea tractor for the school run, etc) as said there are a decent number of small electrics. I know a guy with the little BMW i3, he loves it! (and they're quite old now!) (EDIT: although having just googled it, the i3 is approaching end-of-life, and the "replacement" is actually significantly bigger...)
there’s already the zoe, leaf, mini, 208, corsa, fiat 500 and the honda e
VW e-UP, Smart Forfour also. But I'll say that the Leaf isn't really a small car.
In fact just did a quick search, the Forfour is £20k, that's probably the best runabout option. Of course, it's way more expensive than the petrol one.
Demand is currently huge, supply is very limited both new and used, so prices will stay high for a while. We can't all go EV overnight, of course. However, manufacturers are pouring everything into them, so we will see supply go up and prices will fall.
But will it take a 29er with just the front wheel off? 🤣
Can it tow my caravan 500 miles?
Can it tow it 500 miles more?
Can you fit two hayabusa engines to it?
Really adding to the thread guys.
But will it take a 29er with just the front wheel off?
Errmm, no "Citroën Ami may be small but it still has many practical storage areas as well as a baggage area in front of the passenger seat (whilst still giving the passenger plenty of leg room)."
Can it tow my caravan 500 miles?
And it's a no to that as well
"With a range of 43 miles and a top speed of 28mph, the Ami is a modern solution for modern mobility needs"
1. Range anxiety need not be a thing if you plan and have half a brain
That's fine if you can afford a 40 grand car with a 250m+ range. If you can only afford one with a 120m range then range anxiety gets real very quickly especially if it's cold and you are driving fast A roads.
there’s already the zoe, leaf, mini, 208, corsa, fiat 500 and the honda e. Seems like a good selection.
Talk about the "let them eat cake" answer; £28-30k for a shit box hatch with some batteries? And used they're a disgusting amount even for 13+ year Leafs (leaves?) drifting toward sub 50mile range. Or you can go out and buy a decade old aygo for half the money, about the same reliability, yes you carry on pumping hydrocarbons but at least be able to afford that option...
The real answer has been stated several times already, all of us need to drive less and own fewer cars, but thats still a limiting and socially exclusionary choice for many, our society is structured around car use, and if I chose not to drive (which I would be fine with) it has impacts on the rest of my family.
Wow! Thank you all - at least now I certainly feel more comfortable with my own decisions and cynicism. I wonder how it will all pan out?
(I've set a calendar reminder for a year's time to re-read this post).
Shame cars of any ilk are unsustainable.
Get a bike.
The real answer has been stated several times already, all of us need to drive less and own fewer cars, but thats still a limiting and socially exclusionary choice for many, our society is structured around car use, and if I chose not to drive (which I would be fine with) it has impacts on the rest of my family.
Stated repeatedly on this thread and the other one. And yes, this is the only sustainable solution.
That’s fine if you can afford a 40 grand car with a 250m+ range. If you can only afford one with a 120m range then range anxiety gets real very quickly especially if it’s cold and you are driving fast A roads.
No, because you know your car's range before you set off, surely? You dont set off on a 120 mile journey in a 120 mile car without looking for chargers on the way first, do you?
reduce the number of cars on the road
You Brits are generally fat ****eres..... The reliance in cars is both embarrassing and sad.
do you?
Yes.
But, at the other end of the bell curve we have very recently (don't laugh) had a customer raise a complaint because they couldn't *change the battery* themselves as it'd gone flat. And had got themselves stranded in the middle of nowhere.
They wanted us to buy the car back from them as it was unfit for purpose.
I've got that to deal with when i get back to work.
As far buying petrol instead of electric, yes, i'll get a PHEV next time, not an BEV (even though the PHEV will cost me about £150 a month more to lease) as the range on the BEV with bike racks (regularly) and caravans/trailers (2-3 times a month) simply isn't there yet.
The argument isn’t just financial it’s also relevant to consider the carbon footprint of a new EV versus keeping your old car. I think I read somewhere that you need to drive 10s of thousands of miles before you can say you have helped the planet buying your new EV car.
As many have said less cars on the road is the solution. For me the ideal future would be nobody owning cars, and a much smaller number of Uber style driverless cars stored local to each town / village, ready to order as you need them, range wouldn’t be an issue as on long journeys you’d just swap out to a charged car from time to time. Since we use our cars maybe 10% of the time, you’d end up with way less cars on the road. We would need to move away from cars being a status symbol though.
Failing that, a standardised removable battery would be my solution, filling up would be a matter of swapping out your battery for a charged one, no wait. Fat chance of anyone agreeing a standard for this though.
I keep being told on here petrol and deisel is too cheap and THEY should hit THEM in the pocket thats the only thing that works...not sure who they or them are mind...nice touch tho when you consider who will get hit the hardest...very classy
I agree but in reverse, hit THEM in the pocket with a cheaper alternative...
that wont make anyone rich tho so never gonna happen.
It really seems on here looking at other car threads that it appears the norm to spend 40-50k on a car
There is a good vid on youtube about the costs and carbon footprint of evs and ice,
Guy is all for ev but all things considered the balance point is quite interesting.
I think I read somewhere that you need to drive 10s of thousands of miles before you can say you have helped the planet buying your new EV car.
Someone does, yes, but not necessarily you. And provided it gets sold on rather than crashed, the car you order will do far more than the break-even figure.
Fat chance of anyone agreeing a standard for this though.
It's been thought of, but not really feasible currently. The battery pack is the chassis, on a modern EV, it can't really be removed.
I agree but in reverse, hit THEM in the pocket with a cheaper alternative…
that wont make anyone rich tho so never gonna happen.
Of course it will. As I keep saying, the cars are expensive now because they are selling all they can make at those prices whilst they are ramping up production. Once rich people all have one, the prices will drop. And it will make people rich, just ask Elon Musk. Or it will keep people rich - VW want to keep selling cars, and they will.
There is a good vid on youtube about the costs and carbon footprint of evs and ice,
Good, or appears good? EV tech is very fluid indeed, there are lots of ways to make batteries now and there'll be many more in the near future. So what goes into making a battery now won't always be the case.
Talk about the “let them eat cake” answer; £28-30k for a shit box hatch with some batteries? And used they’re a disgusting amount even for 13+ year Leafs (leaves?) drifting toward sub 50mile range.
It is a lot of money, but petrol cars are expensive too. Taking the 208 as an example, the elite petrol is 27k and the elite electric is 33. Taking into account resale values, over any lifespan with average miles, the electric is cheaper.
The oldest leafs are 11 years old and have around 50,000 miles, cost 7k. A golf of the same age and milage is 6k. Your break even there is what, 2 years tops?
It is a lot of money, but petrol cars are expensive too. Taking the 208 as an example, the elite petrol is 27k and the elite electric is 33.
Cool.
How do the base model prices compare?
How do the base model prices compare?
From peugeots website
Active premium plus is the lowest spec in electric at 30k
Active premium plus with a puretech petrol engine is 19990 otr ....
Yep, still looking at £10k extra for an EV equivalent on a lot of cars/vans or 50% more on the cost. That is just not a reasonable additional amount.
I don't buy expensive cars but do tend to run them for 10 years or more. I am sure I am not alone in being in a position where I simply will not be buying a small town car for £28K.
And that is from someone who actually wants an electric car - I don't care about range, charging etc,. just whether it makes financial sense.
That is also comparing new with new. You can buy a very good second hand petrol car for substantially less.
That is also comparing new with new. You can buy a very good second hand petrol car for substantially less.
Can also buy a used electric car for substantially less.
Nothing you'd actually want mind . But they exist
The margins between petrol and electric remain fairly consistent on anything you'd actually want to buy
Everyone’s calculation so far seems to be almost entirely economic. Is there nothing that says I’m willing to suffer a little inconvenience and cost to potentially make a small difference?
We’ve had our I3 for 5 years and knew at the time that it would cost us to have it, but it seemed the right thing to do. From the time we bought it, we switched to a 100% green electricity tariff (again costing more as it was exempt from the price cap) and have more recently been solar charging it.
We’ve been to Northumberland (650mile return), the Lakes (600mile) Cornwall (350mile) and Bournemouth (150mile no recharge) and whilst it’s taken on average about 2hours longer for each direction (assuming no stops for fuel in ICE) it’s been fine. We’ve always found a charger fairly easily, always stopping where there are alternatives nearby just in case.
Replacing my 19y old Touring is another matter. It only does 3000miles per year and from an environmental standpoint, the embedded energy of a replacement EV wouldn’t makes sense.
A bigger car is required for some of what we do, maybe 10% and range over 250miles would be preferred, but the net climate effect of producing a vehicle for that role, especially as an EV doesn’t stack up unless I keep it for 20years. Maybe I will.
Is there nothing that says I’m willing to suffer a little inconvenience and cost to potentially make a small difference?
Yep, that's part of my rationale as I choose the next car. Company car so the economics are artificially skewed towards EV's but regardless I see the EV as likely being more hassle to own when longer trips are a factor.
I'm not convinced of the environmental benefits of EV's right now due to the raw materials for batteries, the source of the energy being largely fossil fuel based, however I do see them as being part of the transition - battery tech improving and battery recycling becomes a thing plus we wholesale switch away from fossil fuels - towards a future when there IS a genuine environmental benefit. I'm not saying this to shoot down anyone who claims that EVs have an environmental benefit right now, rather to shoot down anyone claiming that the lack of environmental benefits right now is a reason not to own an EV - the point is their role as a stepping stone.
Is there nothing that says I’m willing to suffer a little inconvenience and cost to potentially make a small difference?
Of course, but its not a little cost difference, its a huge cost difference for some. Ok, if you normally buy a brand new 3 series BMW then buying electric next time is no great heartache. The £20k - £30k ish figures mentioned are more than the total I've spent on every car I've ever owned in 30+ years of motoring. Also I'd debate just how small that small difference is. There is a significant amount of green washing in it IMO. I don't doubt we'll own an electric car at some point but for now I'd rather just drive less.
Yes to the environmental impact thing. We needed a car asap and we could have got any old petrol runabout but we wanted an EV for environmental reasons as well as running cost and coolness.
We won't be able to justify the cost for another one though once this goes back. We only have one now because the lease was very cheap.
the point is their role as a stepping stone
This!
I've been saying this too for a while now. I like to think of EV being the MiniDisc to the ICE CDs. MiniDiscs were great, I loved them and they overcame the issues of CD but soon there will be the MP3 and iPod of the motor industry. Fuel technology is accelerating (excuse the pun) at an exponential rate because we have to do it.
Ultimately the MiniDisc was essentially still just a "disc" and batteries are still just batteries.
Stepping stone to what?
Battery technology may change, but electrified road vehicles make far more sense than any other technology currently available or on the horizon.
Stepping stone to what?
To whatever the future looks like. If it is just what we have now but battery powered then we are definitely screwed.
You could argue that the current crop of electric cars are a sticking plaster propping up the private car ownership model but hopefully we'll see a lot more progress. I think self driving will be the key to bigger changes and that really requires electric.
electrified road vehicles make far more sense than any other technology currently available or on the horizon.
Do they?
For those that have one now, sure. For those either without off road parking or decent charging infrastructure, not so much. Then there's the whole road freight issue. You also forget that there is a whole world out there besides the UK where either the infrastructure is worse or people drive what we would consider phenomenal distances.
Fact is we need more than one solution, there is no one size fits all. Whether that solution is ethanol, hydrogen or some sort of synthetic fuel I can't say but something else is needed.
The £20k – £30k ish figures mentioned are more than the total I’ve spent on every car I’ve ever owned in 30+ years of motoring.
Also this, although I've only been driving 13 years in that time I've spent a grand total of £11000 on cars.
It's a massive cost difference. We're in a financial crisis at the moment - only those rather well off can afford EV's or those with nice perks like company vehicles. The rest of the population can't afford them. I'm actively using a car less, so replacing my ICE car makes no sense environmentally or economically.
I could afford a EV, but I don't want one, nor do I want to be spending £35k on a tin box - given a choice I'd be getting a 3.7 V6 petrol sports car (for the use it would get). I cycle to work on an old fashioned manual bike - no motors, that's far greener than any e-bike or EV.
Stepping stone to what?
To a whole range of possibilities - not just related to cars. This is part of a much wider evolution. Some examples
1 - A move away from fossil fuels to renewables for the majority of our energy needs. Clearly the production and distribution side of things is developing right now but it's no use having 100% green energy production if cars are still running on petrol.
2 - Smart / distributed electricity grids - a move away from the current "few large sources sources" of production and a relatively dumb grid to one where there are multiple, diverse sources of energy production (solar, wind, nuclear, probably some gas power stations to "fill in the gaps" etc) and distributed energy storage to even out the peaks and troughs
3 - Autonomous / smart transport. A move away from individual car ownership to one where there is a local "on demand" type service - call the vehicle you need for that particular purpose. Potential for "platooning" on motorways and / or vehicle swaps - e.g. you take a small runaround type vehicle to a hub, then swap to a faster, more efficient high speed service to a hub close to where you want to be (hmmmm, maybe it could run on rails ;-)) then another runaround to get to the final destination. Maybe the runaround could become PART OF the more efficient fast service. etc etc....
etc etc - some of this is a bit pie in the sky right now and some is actively happening.
EV's are just a SMALL part of this, and should not be looked at in isolation.
Stepping stone to what?
Battery technology may change, but electrified road vehicles make far more sense than any other technology currently available or on the horizon.
I'm not sure if you're joking or needing more coffee.
Little fun fact that ties in with my MiniDisc analogy. I was a huge fan of CD then MD and on the way home from my honeymoon, the airport duty free had Sony MD players at a snip (remember those good old days of duty free?). The gorgeous yellow Sony thing was literally sat on the shelf next to a white block of a thing with a dial on it - an iPod 1, for the same price. I hesitated for a moment then thought "Balls to that, digital media won't take off..."
Point is, no one knows what's on the horizon, (not even you), but there will be something. Batteries and charging them is scrambling to use old tech to find a modern day solution. I'm pretty sure, by the time I am ready and capable to move away from petrol there will be better alternatives emerging.
another environmental aspect that hasn't really been mentioned much is the massive health benefits in reducing pollution from urban areas where cars and high concentrations of people are (even if it means shifting that pollution to less populated areas near coal power stations!).
I normally ride in primary position if I'm approaching a junction with no-one in front of me, to discourage a nobhead in his diesel Merc/BMW from overtaking, slamming on the brakes, and then covering me in fumes when he pulls away. They still do, of course, which is really annoying. I was cursing some guy who did it recently, till I noticed it was a Polestar, and a literal breath of fresh air as he drove off in front of me 😃
I think there's massive benefit to urban infrastructure vehicles like taxis, buses, bin lorries, delivery trucks, construction vehicles etc going electric, as well as private cars.
My wife's car of choice with engine of choice in colour of choice has just appeared second hand locally - an Audi Q3 1.4 TSFI - great for the majority of small journeys with the kids she does and the odd motorway run. I'm seriously considering this as an option for 5-9 years until my age, job circumstances and kids age/activities mean we can go down to one electric car.
