Again, there's no profit in lighting streets...
Don't forget they pulled up an awful lot of pavements to install cable TV in a lot of cities, and then did the same again for fibre broadband. Of course, not everywhere, but in a lot of places.
EVs are a luxury sticking plaster who’s main purpose is to assuage the climate guilt of the richer half of society.
Richest 10% maybe.
WCA
10 years old means the theoretical range of 130 miles actually is about 30-35 miles – told you it was knackered. Mechanically it is absolutely fine but the range is rubbish for anything other than the local supermarket and up and down tot he train station when I have to go to London. Fortunately this is exactly what I use it for. I dislike many things about the car but as a 2nd car pickup up for about £3,000 it is fine – as exciting as a microwave oven but also about as useful. I would only do this with a charge point at home or on the street right outside.
I was actually looking at something very similar (either a Leaf or the small peugeot) just to use when I go to surrey hills or similar alone and can't be arsed cycling there or back (or am meeting people or limited time).
Theoretically that would get me to Coldharbour and back so long as I don't go anywhere else on the way to/from.
I usually try and combine journeys / destinations and tag riding onto a journey so I can't see this working out...
Having just been to Cornwall and back from Surrey the EV owners we saw when we stopped for a couple of comfort breaks all seemed to be in a miserable place... 1/2 the chargers seemed not to be working and queues for the remaining ones meant we were probably 300 miles away before they even started charging.
EVs are a luxury sticking plaster who’s main purpose is to assuage the climate guilt of the richer half of society.
EVs are expensive now, because people are still buying more than they can make at those prices.
In a few years' time they will be cheaper than ICEs.
I have the Tesla Model S and the charging infrastructure has grown so much over the last 5 years and the range is still very good. I'm fortunate enough to be able to charge at home via Powerwall so that's fine. I'm seeing more and more electric vehicles on the road and i've also heard of queues now at some charging points which isn't so good. On a long journey that would be the last thing i would want personally.
We're already being asked by the media to turn off unwanted appliances to save strain on the grid etc. A serious concern for me is that what on earth is the national grid going to do when all these electric vehicles come into use? We've had no proper power infrastructure development in decades. Knowing how this country performs it will result in thousands of cars being unable to charge! 🙂
I've got an ICE too and whilst the charging network is getting better it's nowhere near as easy as using a petrol / diesel car at the moment.
If this is going to be a proper viable option for people, a proper solution needs to be designed from the ground up that works, is easy to use and reliable.....will it happen? Probably not.
Test drove a new Zoe. Decided to buy an AMG V6 or V8 C Class estate. Last of the ICE. We drive few miles and there will be a lot of time to drive EVs. Currently trying to source a nice one.
A serious concern for me is that what on earth is the national grid going to do when all these electric vehicles come into use?
Good job they've thought of that then. I think someone on here works for them.
The most demand for electricity in recent years in the UK was for 62GW in 2002. Since then, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to improvements in energy efficiency.
Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we believe demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002 and this is well within the range of manageable load fluctuation.
https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions
For me their is little incentive to get one. My car does 60mpg so even at £2 a litre it is not costing me much for the miles I do and the difference is far less than the difference between buying an EV over a petrol.
For example our next car will be a small van, say a Berlingo van, as me and wife don't need a 4 seater and would find the van space more useful.
So I can get a petrol Berlingo van for £20k or I could get an electric version for £30k, £10k difference. My total pertrol bill running one would be around £1500 a year (at £2 a litre) so that's 7 years to get even (based on electric being free, which it clearly isn't)
I've done just over 3000 miles in my big diesel Skoda since November, 1800 of those were over 2 weeks to Scotland and back + mileage whilst there.
So even though I wasn't liking filling up from empty at over £130, in the long term my fuel cost for this year is going to be well under £1000.
When I change to an EV it'll very likely be a Tesla Model Y - every video I watch with non Tesla EVs on long distance trips have no end of issues with non working chargers, queues etc. I might have to wait a few years before they're affordable though.
every video I watch with non Tesla EVs on long distance trips have no end of issues with non working chargers, queues etc.
That's because posting a video entitled "Smooth, trouble free trip in my EV with no charging issues" wouldn't get many views"
I’ve done just over 3000 miles in my big diesel Skoda since November, 1800
That's only an average of 8 miles a year, so pretty low mileage.
My total pertrol bill running one would be around £1500 a year (at £2 a litre) so that’s 7 years to get even (based on electric being free, which it clearly isn’t)
It can be had pretty cheaply though from Octopus.
I’d nursed my old and battered van in the hopes it would be the last Dino-car I bought. Loads of research last year as it was entering a death/BER spiral and in the end we couldn’t make the numbers add up for an electric car this time around, so hopefully this one is the last time! I’m really hopeful the number of Niro type cars that are about will start to bring the s/h costs down in two or three (or four or five, given the world at the moment) years.
Instead we bought an e-cargo bike (radwagon) for the local trips to propitiate the eco gods and because it’s great. New baby not being old enough has limited how much we can use it but I think the number of local* car journeys I’ve made on my own since we got it in November is still only about 5. Mostly for things that I couldn’t practically shift on the bike like a large ladder.
*local: ~5 mile radius
Couldn't make the numbers work out for me in march
Was 12 years payback on my milage given the cost difference between a small petrol car and a similar sized electric.even with petrol gone mental it's still a considerable years to payback - and I still couldn't use it for most of my site visits.
Might make more sense when the family car needs replaced next time.
There does seem to be more lengthy range options in larger vehicles.
Bought the smallest 1l petrol car I could get my hands on.
Mercedes’ single timing chain has had issues, but as always the people whose cars failed shout the loudest. There are huge numbers of that particular engine (OM651) on the road so failure rates are still low. Expensive fix though.
Don't think the 48V system was ever introduced on the OM651, only 12V stop start (which is an emissions sticking plaster on a lot of older engines) they had a completely new engine (OM654) for the 48V system, think that's got a electric supercharger as an option as well. Doubt they've copied the timing chain design that closely between the two...
Got a couple of presentations somewhere on my work computer about the whole Audi/VAG/Merc/BMW/etc 48V systems and the changes they made.
We considered it when we went from 2 company cars to 1 car between us, main worry for us was lifetime of battery & expense to replace if battery died, as we were buying 2nd hand & wanted at least 10yrs remaining life in whatever we got, ended up with a petrol mazda 3 that averages 50+ mpg. Now looking a 2nd car again as wife has new job but likely to go for economical diesel as we don't have £££ but still need to project an acceptable "image" for work.
Depends what you mean by mild. To me that means things like the Mercedes 48V system which is just a small power boost, no drive belts in the engine, the ability to run the a/c when stopped, and the ability to shut the engine off whilst decelerating.
Yeap that's what I meant by mild though in VAGs case it doesn't appear to run the Aircon nor provide any boost.
The Prius is a different philosophy. Agreed that has definite economy boost.
If we didn't have a separate ev the plug in version would be a good call but when most trips exceed the electric range it would be pointless.
its interesting a lot of people choose purely economical arguments. For some those are enough to win the argument alone (especially if you can blag it through a company car scheme, the petrol versions are more expensive on a monthly basis than electric for lease+tax) - but does anyone consider that the electric versions are quieter, faster, more relaxing to drive and more convenient (assuming off-street parking) for 95% of journeys?
I think its interesting that some of the biggest releases this year are things like the hummer which doesn't make any attempt to be green or cheap, but uses electric power to create something never seen before..
Don’t think the 48V system was ever introduced on the OM651, only 12V stop start (which is an emissions sticking plaster on a lot of older engines)
You're quite right, I was citing the OM651 as an example of what some call a design oversight. I'd hope they learned from that for later engines! As for a sticking plaster - sure, but it definitely uses less fuel for very obvious reasons, in town driving.
That’s because posting a video entitled “Smooth, trouble free trip in my EV with no charging issues” wouldn’t get many views”
Just drove 250 miles each way on holidays and stopped twice for comfort breaks each direction
Each time there were EV driver looking lost.. trying to get a charger working, broken chargers... and queues just to get into parking due to EV's trying to queue for the limited charging ports.
Most of them looked far to tense and/or miserable to be making a YT video though.
So you don’t think we’ll have lamp-post chargers or in-pavement chargers on these streets?
Half of them are still waiting for half-decent broadband.
So you don’t think we’ll have lamp-post chargers or in-pavement chargers on these streets? I think this will be far easier than having to overcome the major engineering problems with hydrogen, not to mention the fundamental scientific problems with inefficiency.
Developers are not building the infrastructure into every new build property, (They're only just waking up to put solar panels on the roofs), so ripping up streets will be way down the pecking order. So no, I don't think lamp post charging is going to be a quick solution unfortunately.
My gut feeling is EV will be old tech and alternatives will be of age that is viable before EV infrastructure is. I agree, controlling and obtaining hydrogen is a scientific hurdle but I'm sure someone smarter than the likes of you and I are currently scrambling to figure it out for the next gold rush.
but does anyone consider that the electric versions are quieter, faster, more relaxing to drive and more convenient (assuming off-street parking) for 95% of journeys?
I'm not sure how anxiety the whole trip then waiting hours for a charge before carrying on to the next hopeful place to charge is faster, more convenient or convenient.
That's not including the hope you can get somewhere to charge the car in the morning before the journey or before you set off home.
I'm not sure where the obviously made up but oft quoted 95% of journey's comes from but were you part of the sample ? Nope me neither ...
Currently 95% of my journeys by ICE are over 30-40 miles and more like an average of 100 miles .. any EV I could afford would require multiple charges for most of my journey's.
Any journey I make by ICE under 5 miles is pretty much down to lack of anywhere safe to lock the bike (unless its Wickes or similar) so I can't see how we are suddenly going to have "safe" chargers dotted about when our infrastructure can't even provide places to lock a bike safely.
Wanted a small car for the 10k miles a year I do. Went to look at the VW ID3, interior reminded me of my daughters barbie car albeit in a cheaper plastic 🤣 ignoring that with a small deposit of £3k they wanted £400 a month. Add electric for that which can be anywhere from 7p/kWh at home on an eco deal or 80p/kWh on the road it came to around £450 lease and fuel. I opted for a polo gti whoch so far is averaging 43mpg on petrol and is costing £380 a month for the lease and fuel. It’s also a nicer place to be and much more fun to drive with no range issues, admittedly it’s a year old not a new car but I couldn’t make the figures work. I get an allowance from work (commercial EV installers🤣) and it covers the costs fine. If I didn’t get the allowance I’d be in a ten year old car or just use my Nissan Elgrand.
Yeap that’s what I meant by mild though in VAGs case it doesn’t appear to run the Aircon nor provide any boost.
The Prius is a different philosophy. Agreed that has definite economy boost.
Doesn't the VAG system have a 'GTE' mode that gives you power from both and makes you go fast?
My in-laws have a Honda one, which is a bit rubbish - just gives a small power boost and lets you use a smaller engine. Doesn't run the aircon either.
elliot-20
Developers are not building the infrastructure into every new build property, (They’re only just waking up to put solar panels on the roofs)
95%+ of new builds in my borough are high rise towers... without even parking let alone a way to charge an EV. The last proposal was to lease residents folding bikes to take up in the lifts.
Any solar panels on the roofs are only a token gesture anyway .. I'm not doing the maths but the roof area of a 20 story tower is never going to provide enough power for 300 families crowded into the rabbit hutches they are building.
Test drove a new Zoe. Decided to buy an AMG V6 or V8 C Class estate. Last of the ICE. We drive few miles and there will be a lot of time to drive EVs. Currently trying to source a nice one.
The car equivalent of testing a steel Apollo rigid and then buying a carbon Santa Cruz FS...
– but does anyone consider that the electric versions are quieter, faster, more relaxing to drive and more convenient (assuming off-street parking) for 95% of journeys?
My car is not noisy
A small cheap electric car is not fast (and I drive small cheap cars)
My car is auto so relaxing to drive
My car is very convenient as I just put petrol in every 2 or 3 weeks which takes 5 minutes
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I’m not sure how anxiety the whole trip then waiting hours for a charge before carrying on to the next hopeful place to charge is faster, more convenient or convenient.
I swear you just argue for the sake of it.
Why would you be anxious your whole trip? You can plan ahead, the car doesn't suddenly stop working randomly. Honestly you come over as hysterical half the time. And I know you're going to write page and pages in response to this thread, but really, when lecturing people on EVs you should perhaps back off a bit if you aren't an EV driver. If you are, and you're still anxious, then do us a favour and sell it to someone who won't be.
And given that most people's trips are to the shops, or work, there's even less reason to be anxious.
Currently 95% of my journeys by ICE are over 30-40 miles and more like an average of 100 miles .. any EV I could afford would require multiple charges for most of my journey’s.
That might be true of EVs you can afford but it's not true of most EVs. That's just a problem of point 1 which is that they are expensive. Mine is one of the shortest ranges out there and has no trouble doing a 100 mile trip and there's zero anxiety.
– but does anyone consider that the electric versions are quieter, faster, more relaxing to drive and more convenient (assuming off-street parking) for 95% of journeys?
Absolutely. EVs are much better to drive. I'm in two minds about doing my next long trip in either a basic EV or a luxury diesel, that should be significant.
@kerley have you owned or driven an EV?
95%+ of new builds in my borough are high rise towers… without even parking let alone a way to charge an EV.
Where are they parking their ICE cars then?
but I’m sure someone smarter than the likes of you and I are currently scrambling to figure it out for the next gold rush.
The only real solution of course is not to replace the ICE fleet with EVs, but to reduce the number of cars on the road. The trouble with that though is that when people see or perceive that as rich people driving round in their teslas while everyone else has to get the bus, they're going to want to hang on to their cheap petrol cars.
Agree. Until rich people are zipping about in personal drones instead, then driving on the ground will seem poor 🙂
I’m not sure where the obviously made up but oft quoted 95% of journey’s comes from but were you part of the sample ? Nope me neither …
Currently 95% of my journeys by ICE are over 30-40 miles and more like an average of 100 miles .. any EV I could afford would require multiple charges for most of my journey’s.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmtrans/1487/148705.htm
5% of all journeys (of all modes) are over 25 miles, so 95% are under. assuming a distribution curve, its probably safe to say that 95% of all car journeys are under 50 miles, so a return trip (100 miles) in the vast majority of electric cars will require no charging, making 95% of journeys more convenient (as you never have to go to a petrol station).
that obiously doesn't apply to 95% of driven miles, nor does it apply to every single driver of a car, but its a pretty good figure to start with
edit : i followed the link through to the actual data. In 2019 (last pre-pandemic year, as the pandemic probably reduced long journeys) less than 1% of car journeys were over 100 miles and 2.1% of car journeys were over 50 miles. so its probably safe to say that 95% of return car journeys are under 100 miles, thus within the range of pretty much every properly working EV. Sample side is 100,000 journeys. The trend doesn't seem to be altering much, if you take the last 18 years worth of data (total sample size of 2.1 million car journeys), its also 2.1% that are over 50 miles.
the average person drives 3 trips per year over 100 miles and is a passenger for another 3 trips per year.
My car is very convenient as I just put petrol in every 2 or 3 weeks which takes 5 minutes
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My car is contributing to climate change, environmental damage due to fossil fuel extraction and poor air quality in towns and cities
environmental damage due to fossil fuel extraction
And rare-earth metal extraction (and disposal) doesn't damage the environment at all? EVs solve some problems, and create others.
I feel as if the problems of extraction and recycling are more fundamentally manageable than that of localised CO2 emissions everywhere. Whether or not they will actually be managed is another issue altogether.
And rare-earth metal extraction (and disposal) doesn’t damage the environment at all? EVs solve some problems, and create others.
Lithium, cobalt and nickel mining doesn't even touch the sides compared to the damage done by the last 100 years of fossil fuel extraction, transportation and processing.
Disposal? All the materials in a battery can be, and are, recycled. Look up Redwood Materials. You can't recycled fossil derived CO2 unless you grow some trees and bury them in the ground for a few million years.
from talking to people who actually [I]own[/I] EVs (including one couple who now don't have a non-EV at all) "range anxiety" is largely in the heads of people who've never driven them. 🤷♂️I’m not sure how anxiety the whole trip then waiting hours for a charge before carrying on to the next hopeful place to charge is faster, more convenient or convenient.
Seems like this has descended into just an offshoot of the EV thread rather than reasons for people who are in the market not buying one in the first place. If you have an EV already this really isn't the thread for you.
Depends on your car, as another owner of an old leaf, though mine still does 100km pretty regularly. Once you get to the newer cars, life is good.
I don't actually know anyone who's bought a petrol car recently.
I know a guy who's a Nissan exec, gets a big discount obviously. He's just bought a Tesla 🤣Depends on your car, as another owner of an old leaf
“range anxiety” is largely in the heads of people who’ve never driven them
I agree - only EVs in our household.
Why would you be anxious your whole trip? You can plan ahead, the car doesn’t suddenly stop working randomly.
How would you know how long the queue for charging is going to be to plan ahead?
Honestly you come over as hysterical half the time. And I know you’re going to write page and pages in response to this thread, but really, when lecturing people on EVs you should perhaps back off a bit if you aren’t an EV driver. If you are, and you’re still anxious, then do us a favour and sell it to someone who won’t be.
I just got back from a trip... Surrey/Cornwall/Surrey and each of the 4 stops (2 each direction) there were anxious EV owners trying to find a working charger.
And given that most people’s trips are to the shops, or work, there’s even less reason to be anxious.
Were YOU part of that survey because I don't know anyone that was? However what was asked was about the people on this thread worrying.
Given most of us own bikes ... most of us drive with bikes and use bikes more than average locally that's why any EV I could afford would be useless to me.
I'm taking the cost and range from WCA's post... I know he's got a screwed ankle so I can see why it works for him...
Where are they parking their ICE cars then?
Like the majority of people wherever they can... the more high rise and parking-less homes get built the further they have to go to find somewhere to park. I've done it in the past and it's miserable.. you get home and drop the family as close as you can then drive round for 1/2 hour looking for a parking space .. It's a constant theme on the local FB groups... "why are people parking outside my house overnight?" (erm because their house/flat has no parking - they aren't doing it because they want a mile walk home) It's also brought up on every major planning application (which for other reasons I follow)
A lot used to park at the Sainsbury's and Asda until they have both had a parking restriction added... that caused a big stir on FB as well, lots of people suddenly getting fines for parking in Asda overnight. (Have a look on google maps... no parking near for any of these houses) https://www.google.com/maps/ @51.3234098,-0.5414079,3a,75y,270.64h,86.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZ6OPvJi7SuyNqRmiNHnvDg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
A real example: I'm lucky to have a drive... the minor injuries clinic is 1.1 miles walk or 1.6 miles drive.
I recently tried to drive there (as the time before I then got sent to the A&E 5 miles further) and I couldn't find a single free parking spot much closer than my house to the walk in clinic... (still outside the designated town centre)... so I actually drove there, spent a good time looking for parking in all directions.. gave up and drove home and parked on my drive then walked. (I sorta just ended up close to my house after 30 mins or so and just thought sod it and to be fair I was driving a van so there may have been 1-2 smart car sized spaces)
I say lucky... after the last 4-5 places we lived not having any parking it was an absolute for me when buying the current house ***
northernmatt
Seems like this has descended into just an offshoot of the EV thread rather than reasons for people who are in the market not buying one in the first place. If you have an EV already this really isn’t the thread for you.
Yes and no ... I know YT isn't real life but I do see a lot of people with EV's giving up and going back to ICE...
What it does seem is some people want to say how as it works for them in their very specific circumstances how it should work for ALL of us.
Much of the argument is about economics with ICE vs EV - there is a massive gap at present, and it just doesn't work out for most people. we all know the answer is drive less, EV or ICE.
Not buying a new car and buying used makes better environmental sense, as does looking after a car and using it until it's not economical to repair, but many folk want a nice new shiny car every 3-4 years.
Tesla's seem to have less worry about charging, as they have invested in a network which results in a much better user experience - I know someone that's been round Europe in his Tesla, for next to nothing in 'juice' charges as his car has free charging on Tesla's network.
EV's are the way forward, but it's not mainstream enough. I just keep thinking how all company car drivers were 'forced' into diesel due to tax being based on CO2. Roll on a few years and they, the Government, eventually realise diesel wasn't such a good idea (everyone else knew about the emissions).
I don't think we will have the investment in infrastructure. Work's car park has 12 charge points for electric cars, lots of spare space/capacity, and it's free to use, but that's about 5% of the spaces, so wouldn't take many more people to get EV's before that's an issue.
Seems like this has descended into just an offshoot of the EV thread rather than reasons for people who are in the market not buying one in the first place.
True, but the points are still valid to the discussion. Especially around infrastructure and cost.
I am in a similar boat. My example is I have a 18 plate 1 series Beemer and would love to swap out but the financials don't add up. I come to the end of the 4 year lease next month and I am going to take out a loan to "pay off" the balloon payment and keep it for another couple of years.
For a good few months, I have been crunching numbers and massaging figures and EV doesn't even come close to affordability, efficiency and convenience for how I use my car. Right now it literally makes no sense for me to get an EV.
If there was more available (and affordable) 2nd hand stock then I might consider trading it in for a newer ICE 1 series. But only if the money was right.
Are folk considering leasing them as company cars through salary sacrifice?
The numbers look attractive if it's an option for you.
