Bottom of the league table at 27/100k at present
I clocked that. Considering what dirty, dirty boys and girls you've been in the past that's pretty amazing.
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fasgadh
Free MemberYour start/finish point must be within 5miles (8km) of up your council area.
Start/finish point.
Does that mean I could cycle from my house in Edinburgh, down to the Borders and back and stay within the rules. Yes/ No answers please ( I’m not trying to start an argument). I’m trying to train for a race and doing 100km+ round the city is pretty tiresome, and that includes a lap of the Pentlands!
Now, I understand the government's between a rock and a hard place but as much as I despise him, Boris raised a very good point yesterday in saying that despite whatever happens we'll have to learn to live with covid going forwards and that it'll never completely go away. Even if cases dropped to zero in May/June it'll flare up again in places (see Australia/New Zealand as examples).
With the current success of the vaccination programme I would say we could afford to be more lenient about lifting restrictions than planned. Focus should be on trying to get the economy going instead of dragging on this lockdown which is becoming increasingly more unnecessary as cases continue to drop.
Too much caution could penalise the SNP as well because people really are fed up with the lockdown.
I think they'll be losing seats in the May elections with the responses I've seen online to today's announcements...
I couldn’t even go to the pentlands to play as arthurs seat is closer! Let alone seeing Scotroutes pics!
TJ - you are punishing yourself here, not the government. The regs permit you to go to the pentlands (some cynical people might even think the +5 miles rule was specifically made to let Edinbuggers to the pentlands!)- if you impose your own level of restrictions beyond the government that's kind of your own fault.
I do agree with you, but a socially distancing Glaswegian might not.
As someone who has done everything possible to stick within the rules, but who's LA was put in Level 4 in December when others were going to level 2 or 3 it was frustrating - especially as the town I live in was one of the "better" bits and I haven't any reason to mix with people from the "dodgier" bits. But I have no problem seeing that cases in Ayr or Aberdeen are unlikely to have an impact on those in Aberdour, or that someone in Kirkwall should not be restricted because of an outbreak in Kircaldy or Kingussie.
That feeling will be amplified greatly if ‘vaccine passports’ become a thing and my demographic is last in line while those I’ve been isolating in order to protect have restrictions relaxed. Does that make me selfish irresponsible etc etc? Probably.
There's **** all chance of that happening before most people have been offered a first injection. There is no way that this government would manage to agree on the approach and utility of such a system in that timescale, never mind implement it. I don't see the point for domestic use, and even for international travel it probably results in a false sense of security.
jodafett - yes
TJ – you are punishing yourself here, not the government. The regs permit you to go to the pentlands (some cynical people might even think the +5 miles rule was specifically made to let Edinbuggers to the pentlands!)- if you impose your own level of restrictions beyond the government that’s kind of your own fault.
NOpe - you are supposed to only travel as far as needed to do your exercise up ie you are not supposed to go past a place where you can do the exercise you want. so for a walk in the snow and a bit of sledging I would have to go past Arthurs seat to get to the pentlands.
i have cycled out to the pentlands because there is no where nearer comparable but I can walk to Arthurs seat whereas to get the the pentland would require a taxi or bus
local outdoor informal exercise such as walking, cycling, golf, or running (in groups of up to 2 people, plus any children under 12, from no more than 2 households). Exercise can start and finish at a place in your local authority area (or up to 5 miles from its boundary), but you should travel no further than you need to reach to a safe, non-crowded place to exercise in a physically distanced way.
Edit - cycling I cannot find offroad climbs closer withing the law. Walking I can.
jodafett
I would suggest that is within the law / guidence just about but falls foul of the highlighted bit above in that you can find quiet roads closer to the city
Your start/finish point must be within 5miles (8km) of up your council area.
Yes, planning to make use of this for some longer rides, now that the snow has gone. But not so much use when trying to find stuff to do with the kids. Ach, must keep things in perspective it’s not a big deal.
I clocked that. Considering what dirty, dirty boys and girls you’ve been in the past that’s pretty amazing.
Nah we’ve been quite lucky here, middle of the table was the highest we got.
With the current success of the vaccination programme I would say we could afford to be more lenient about lifting restrictions than planned. Focus should be on trying to get the economy going instead of dragging on this lockdown which is becoming increasingly more unnecessary as cases continue to drop.
At least some of the Scottish advisors are big advocates of "zero covid" (which is really badly named as it accepts that 0 is impossible, and means so low you can properly trace and isolate every case and all their contacts). You can't achieve that when we have 800 new cases a day, we almost managed it last summer. We've just started testing asymptomatic contacts which should be a step-change in response to developing situations and stamping out outbreaks before they become significant. I think you can only say "we could afford to..." if you can back it up with modelling or data from a similar country (E,W,NI,I are good examples!) who have done something similar without tipping the balance of R. Its not like we have much headroom to play with. Cases aren't really dropping just now - despite the restrictions and the vaccines - the average daily cases has been bouncing around 8-900 for the last 2 weeks at least. What people usually mean when they say "we could afford to..." is "I'd like to be able to do X, and I don't think me doing X would make a difference. It's not my fault if 5M other people being permitted to do X would screw things up".
I think they’ll be losing seats in the May elections with the responses I’ve seen online to today’s announcements…
I'm not so sure. Who would one vote for if they think the SNP are being too tough? I've seen a lot of unhappy people but they all seem to caveat it with "I know its probably right, buy a hell of a frustrating" and "she's still not as clueless as Boris". By the time they vote people will just be starting to see relaxation and feeling a bit more positive. She might even get to unlock quicker or tweak the levels and make them feel better still. Meanwhile her biggest helper in Downing St will probably have caused some local crisis and brought in panicked local restrictions just about the time he's promised people they can go on holiday. I think the worst they face is some of the 2020 upswing going back to type, or perhaps some abstentions - but I doubt they'll lose seats because of this (there may be other issues that cost them seats - relating to local MSP's, selection lists etc).
Cases aren’t really dropping just now – despite the restrictions and the vaccines – the average daily cases has been bouncing around 8-900 for the last 2 weeks at least.
Indeed, we've barely got back to where we were before Christmas
, but you should travel no further than you need to reach to a safe, non-crowded place to exercise in a physically distanced way.
I suggest ‘travel’ means ‘drive’. Otherwise you would literally have to cycle around the block for an hour if you lived in a quiet area and fancied going for a bike ride. I really think you have over-interpreted the situation. I don’t believe this means that you can’t cycle to the Pentlands if you are also passing Arthur’s Seat
Reasons to be cheerful part 3. Ride from the house and you can go as far as you want as long as your ride finishes back at home.
Coffee shops are still open for takeaways.
You will be able to ride with pal(s)from 15th March.
The days are getting longer and the snow is disappearing 🤪
NOpe – you are supposed to only travel as far as needed to do your exercise up ie you are not supposed to go past a place where you can do the exercise you want. so for a walk in the snow and a bit of sledging I would have to go past Arthurs seat to get to the pentlands.
I think if you are adopting the guidance rather than the legislation you can't really complain they are restricting you. You've obviously decided that Arthurs seat was good enough, otherwise like dozens of others you'd have gone to the Pentlands.
i have cycled out to the pentlands because there is no where nearer comparable but I can walk to Arthurs seat whereas to get the the pentland would require a taxi or bus
You can walk to the pentlands if you get up early enough in the morning! Is it the First Minister's fault that you choose not to own a car (or presumably to join the city car club?)? I don't understand how the situation would have been better for you if she said you could go to speyside to play in the snow - but avoid public transport?
The snow caused some people real problems - lots of elderly folk who couldn't get about on icy streets; people who were expecting food deliveries which didn't come; people who don't have a bloody great hill to walk on their doorstep who travel somewhere by car to get into nature and couldn't get out their streets; essential workers who couldn't get to work, especially those who would normally share a lift with someone else in the snow. Only in Edinburgh would people complain that lockdown+snow was causing them issues because Arthur's seat isn't as good as the Pentlands!
I wasn't really complaining just passing comment. It was one of the few times that i would have prefered to live in the highlands
I think we should all try to follow the guidance as much as we can. We had a good day out on Arthurs seat
I don’t believe this means that you can’t cycle to the Pentlands if you are also passing Arthur’s Seat
Correct IMO - but we were walking! following the guidance to walk past Arthurs seat to go to the pentlands would be wrong. However although biking on Arthurs seat is a gray area signs have gone up asking people not to cycle offroad on the higher parts - so to cycle offroad and do some climbing Pentlands is the closest and i have done so a few times
To go for a proper walk in the Pentlands would have meant driving and driving past Arthurs seat, Its best part of a 20 mile round trip from my house - a bit far to walk to go for a walk.
its clearly outwith the guidence for me to drive out to the pentlands from here when I have more than adequate places to walk nearer which do not require a drive
Edit - clearly also different if you live on the south side of the city
its clearly outwith the guidence for me to drive out to the pentlands from here when I have more than adequate places to walk nearer which do not require a drive
To my mind the intended purpose of the 'council boundary+5' rule was to allow exactly this.... so that city council areas residents could spread out a bit for their exercise. But perhaps I'm guilty of taking the interpretation that suits me!
jodafett – yes
Cheers. A lap or two of the Borders this weekend then!
To my mind the intended purpose of the ‘council boundary+5’ rule was to allow exactly this…. so that city council areas residents could spread out a bit for their exercise. But perhaps I’m guilty of taking the interpretation that suits me!
Edinburgh's 100 sq miles includes a chunk of the Pentlands, so if we didn't travel to spread out a bit all 500k of us would be in the same central green spaces. I run out to Braids or Pentlands because the places closer to me are crowded with people who don't seem to remember to keep their distance when passing. And also reduces the increasing wear and tear on a small number of places which are being wrecked at present.
Indeed, we’ve barely got back to where we were before Christmas
but some areas are lower so why not go back to local tiers now. Scot gov were quick enough to put Aberdeen into a local lockdown
@jodafett - I don't think it's a yes, unless when you say "your house in Edinburgh" is in fact in West/Mid/East Lothian, which in that case it's a yes 😀
I'm off work most of March - using up holidays. If we get a spell of warm dry weather I'll be off for an overnighter or two in the highlands. Less risk than going for a walk in the local park.
Less risk than going for a walk in the local park.
constantly have this discussion with my wife, shes happy for me to go to the local tesco and mix with 100's of the great unwashed yet raises an eyebrow and tuts about be driving 15 miles to cycle in a forest where I'll meet maybe 2 others if I'm lucky.
I don’t think it’s a yes, unless when you say “your house in Edinburgh” is in fact in West/Mid/East Lothian, which in that case it’s a yes 😀
Ah! I see your point!
@jodafett – I don’t think it’s a yes, unless when you say “your house in Edinburgh” is in fact in West/Mid/East Lothian, which in that case it’s a yes
He can start at his house ride all the way through Mid Lothian, East Lothian and the Borders and then back through West lothian to his house if he wants within the legislation. Or he can drive into any of the neighbouring authorities by up to 5 miles so long as he starts and finishes at the same place. Its legal. It may not be within the spirit of the guidance - but if the government wanted the rules to be stricter they should have put the legislation before parliament for scrutiny. I'm not suggesting people don't go beyond the legislation where it makes sense but if you follow the guidance to your own detriment you are allowing a low-grade civil servant to determine your freedoms, and then potentially imposing restrictions from ambiguous wording that was never even intended.
constantly have this discussion with my wife, shes happy for me to go to the local tesco and mix with 100’s of the great unwashed yet raises an eyebrow and tuts about be driving 15 miles to cycle in a forest where I’ll meet maybe 2 others if I’m lucky.
The whole travel for exercise thing has been a massive source of angst from the start. It's almost worse now that what people can legally do and then choose to do within that varies so much. Living in Inverness I could quite legally go to Skye for a day's climbing or such like. I haven't because I'd feel uncomfortable doing that but I know others who have. I've driven 40+ miles to the Fannichs and Beinn Dearg and I feel ok with that because I pass through hardly any settlements and the risk of transmission is vanishingly small. I know there are others who think that's unacceptable and have chosen to limit their travel much more.
I've even been infected with this myself. Climbing at a local boulder last week a woman turned up from Roybridge. I found myself feeling disapproving and thinking 'ooh, that's a bit far' when actually it was perfectly legal and safe.
Whilst some sort of travel restriction is obviously necessary it's not the travel itself which is the issue but what people do at their destination. Unfortunately we've got a bit fixated with the travel itself.
And yes, before anyone says I fully appreciate how lucky I am living in the Highlands and feel sorry for those who'd like to get to the hills and can't.
the guidance says "local outdoor informal exercise such as walking, cycling, golf, or running (in groups of up to 2 people, plus any children under 12, from no more than 2 households). Exercise can start and finish at a place in your local authority area (or up to 5 miles from its boundary), but you should travel no further than you need to reach to a safe, non-crowded place to exercise in a physically distanced way."
Which would obviously rule out going to skye in your case
I think its needed that we at least attempt to follow this guidance, People are cherry picking the bits they want to hear
TJ, we've had this conversation before. The nearest safe, non crowded place is the park at the bottom of my road. Quite clearly that's a ridiculous restriction and pretty much everyone is not doing that. And why should people limit themselves in that way when it is legal and safe to go much further?
The nearest safe, non crowded place is the park at the bottom of my road
Why do you need to go further then?
TJ, is that line in the current guidelines? I ask as I was trying to defend the same point as you, the one that Colin pointed out to me a few weeks ago when I asked about visiting the beach, the thing is it had disappeared and then I happily conceded defeat in that we were allowed to travel with our LA +5 miles. I've been happily doing this since.
Edit- And I'm certainly not going to stop now fwiw
TJ give it a rest. These back and forths do nobody any good. I've bent the rules a bit just to make life a bit more bearable but this morning I feel sick. I just want to start getting back to normal. I want to see my son diving again, hopefully get the highers he needs, see my daughter doing her activities. I want to give my mum a hug. My MIL has literally gone demented this last year, trapped in her house. Stop being such an argumentative p(rick)edant.
What was the point of vaccinating the shielders? Evan afer 2 doses you cannot go to work? So nearly 6 months last year and looking increasing like at least 4 months this year on reduced income or god forbid SSP. How does Scotgov expect people to survive? The FM has only mentioned shielders twice this year and no good news on any occasion. FED UP!
Why do you need to go further then?
We've long ago established that you think everyone should be locking down as strictly as possible.
Meanwhile, what's happening in the real world is that most people have a pretty good handle on what they can do safely and legally and are just getting on with it.
There is a missed nuance here.
i am not condemning folk and yes as far as I can tell that bit is still in the guidance
I simply believe that we should all be doing our best to follow at least the spirit of the guidance rather than looking for loopholes
I am not condemning those who find a more liberal interpretation unless they are flagrantly breaching the guidance which as far as I can see that no one here is doing so. I thought this was a discussion.
Steven - I have so much sympathy for you with the position with your mother - i am in the same with mine and its not going to be much longer before I go to see her tho that would be a flagrant breech of the guidelines ( or maybe not - travelling to care for someone is an exception)
TJ, is that line in the current guidelines?
About a third of the way down this page: https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-stay-at-home-guidance/
"local outdoor informal exercise such as walking, cycling, golf, or running (in groups of up to 2 people, plus any children under 12, from no more than 2 households). Exercise can start and finish at a place in your local authority area (or up to 5 miles from its boundary), but you should travel no further than you need to reach to a safe, non-crowded place to exercise in a physically distanced way."
This is why I've been sticking to my tame local trailcentre (Callendar Estates) on my CX bike rather than drive further to the trails I normally ride my MTBs on. I could drive 5 miles into the neighbouring LA, get bike off the car and ride the rest of the way to the MTB trails - that would be within the guidance, but IMO not in the spirit of it so I've not been doing it. My choice I know.
Did my usual early morning ride today and - rather than it distracting me from daily life - spent much of my time thinking about yesterday's announcement and how what it means for the next 6/7 weeks. Got back to the house in a bit of a crap mood.
As I said earlier ( I think) I believe that we are all reaching the end of our tolerance for the restrictions - its creating huge mental health issues for many. I have actually thru discussions on here softened my stance
Edit
There are a few ways to look at all this
1) a strict legalistic " follow the guidance at all costs" attitude
2) a follow the spirit of the guidance attitude
3) make your own risk assessment
4) look for loopholes to justify doing what yo want
5) flagrantly ignore the rules
I was a 1) and moved to 2) and I do not condemn anymore those who go to 3)
I thought I'd ask this here instead of starting a new thread.
I live in Scotland, my dad is in a care home in England. English care homes are opening up visiting from 8 March.
Will I be able to drive down to visit him in mid March?
As Spin suggests, I've not been sticking strictly to that piece of travel guidance either. My cycling has all been from home, but I've driven 10 miles or so to go swimming and walking, passing other spots en route. With the recent snow conditions, the hills have also been full of folk skiing and they have driven to the likes of Glenmore. Most of them have been fairly local but I'm sure there's been a few from further afield too.
How far would I be prepared to drive under the current guidelines? Dunno. We've ruled out Lochinver 😉 The furthest I've been from home is Inverness and that was for a visit to Halfords.
And if it's confession time I've (a) been out cycling with two other adults and (b) had a night bivvying. If anything, these minor transgressions have helped my mental state simply by ensuring I get less wound up by other folks rule-breaking.
Old shoes:
*lighthearted tone*
which of the above categories are you in?
*serious tone*
I have not seen what the guidance is going to be about cross boarder travel and quite honestly for me it would depend on a couple of things - the level of risk in the area, can you get there and back without stopping / refueling / mixing with others and also how much you feel that visit is needed rather than wanted.
I probably would go
From your 5 point list, can I suggest 2(b) follow the intention of the guidelines.?
@Spin - did you got the The Fannichs to wistfully stare at An Teallach thinking that's really where I want to be?
😉
just to clarify why i have been so strict myself is i have been repeatedly exposed to covid at work and thus I am clearly a higher risk of infecting others than the general population as a symptomless carrier
Similar issue with my wife TJ. She is the most likely vector for transmission amongst all the folk I meet. She does self-test twice a week now which helps offer some reassurance, but I'm extra careful around other folk and on supermarket trips just in case she has passed something on to me (again?)
I feel a bit like getting a teeshirt that says " I am a plague rat STEP AWAY" 🙂
did you got the The Fannichs to wistfully stare at An Teallach thinking that’s really where I want to be?
TBH I probably would go as far as AT, it's not like it would put me into contact with more people. I briefly considered going to Stac Pollaidh to get photos for a project I'm working on but that seemed like taking the piss and would have taken me through Ullapool so potential for contact.
Once you start to go beyond 'the park at the bottom of the road' it all gets a bit random really. I think this illustrates my point that it's not really the travel but how you travel and what you do when you get there which is the issue.
Like most on here I have been very careful over the last 11 months. I could count on one hand how many times I’ve been in a supermarket in that time. My wife does click & collect. I’ve been at home while schooling two primary kids, staying very local for exercise. Only been to the Pentlands a couple of times as we’re in north Edinburgh. But I’m getting to the point that I feel cycling a big loop in different LA areas while never stopping at a cafe etc is of little risk to anybody. So doing it once every couple of weeks while the weathers improving isn’t a big risk.
For my own sanity I really need it!
Edit - TJ, on your list I was 1, moved to 2 and progressing to 3 on the odd occasion.
tjagain
Full MemberEdit
There are a few ways to look at all this
1) a strict legalistic ” follow the guidance at all costs” attitude
2) a follow the spirit of the guidance attitude
3) make your own risk assessment
4) look for loopholes to justify doing what yo want
5) flagrantly ignore the rules
Yup. And of course nobody knows what the "spirit" really is so 2) can mean a lot of different things. It's funny, I've done a lot of board and wargaming in my time and it's literally the same arguments as we always had for that. "Clearly what they meant was..." "OK the rules do say that but it's obviously just an oversight because..."
It also feels sometimes a lot like riding motorbikes on the road- you know what the law is but you're also aware that it was written almost entirely for cars and so there are parts where it's counterproductive and you can break the law without causing any problems for anyone, and sometimes even be safer and safer for others.
