[Closed] Drug cheats and lifetime bans.

Should be a lifetime ban from all sports

He should be banned for having a stupid name though anyway.

or is everyone entitled to a second chance?

Only if you believe that when they were caught it was the first time they tried it
Otherwise, you're giving then a second chance at not getting caught

I'm in two minds about it - I certainly don't think drugs cheats should be given an easy route back BUT looking at someone like Millar, I do think that he'd probably be more of a positive influence than negative if he could race at the Olympics.

I guess that I'm on the side of letting them compete BUT only if they've admitted their guilt and explained how they doped, who supplied, etc.

I may have misunderstood the ruling, but is it not he case that a lifetime ban could be introduced by WADA as part of its sanctions and then this would have to be recognised by the IOC. In other words, it's not really the lifetime ban that is at issue, but the fact that it is WADA who issues drugs sanctions, not the IOC.

NB: This may be an over-simplification of a subject that is, at any level, a complete minefield

Clubber +1

I may have misunderstood the ruling...

I don't think you have.

WADA could introduce a lifetime ban but until they do any ban that goes above and beyond WADA's punishment has just been deemed to be a second (and unfair) punishment.

So effectively anyone that challenges a lifetime ban should win as the precedent has been set. Or at least that is what is expected to happen.

This won't happen very often, but...

Yes, clubber +1

meh, strip ALL prior titles then let 'em back in but must wear a special strip with "drug cheat" prominently written on front & back so they can't sell their image any longer

Already framed and on the wall DD 😉

Hmm.. not a bad idea.. lifetime ban unless you spill the beans...

That;'s actually a pretty bloody good idea, Scardey.

But in the spirit of forgiveness etc, maybe just make them wear it for a specified time, like 5 years or something. I do think it would be a good move to encourage athletes not to use drugs, if the prospect of them not being able to earn good money through sponsorship was real. Ban them from being able to take any money from sponsors or those using their image to promote goods etc. And maybe fine them according to their income during the period they were cheating for. Ben Johnson etc mustuv earned millions during the time they cheated, and got to keep it all.

I don't think David Millar could be made to wear a bigger dunce's hat, he wears it from choice loud and clear.

One of the key points that comes across from his book is the lack of clear role-models for staying clean. By all accounts he's now doing just that with Cervelo potentially protecting a new generation of younger riders. He could play a similar role for Olympians (though less required by Team GB).

It's almost certain that clean riders (and athletes) will be competing against previously doped competitors ...who don't happen to have been caught. So not an easy one then.

Does this self-righteousness apply to all cheats in all walks of life or just cyclists who have doped?

All sports persons.

And how's it 'self righteousness'? It's about trying to ensure that cheats are kept out of sports, and that those caught cannot profit from their cheating. What's wrong wiv dat?

Personally I can't stand hearing people like Millar and Dwayne Chambers whine on about their 'mistakes' etc. Had they never bin caught, they'd neverruv owned up, but carried on taking coin for being cheats. Fact.

Lifetime bans from working if your expense claims aren't whiter than white. Life time driving ban if you break the speed limit. Just checking.

Now you're just being silly iDave.

Elfin +1000.

I hope that GB could take and independent stance but I guess the human rights BS would get in the way.

Perhaps if any cheats win a gold medal, the other guys could step off the podium and the crowd turn their backs and boo the anthem. Or raise a flag with a "cheat" banner clear visible.

i don't think its self-righteous at all.

iDave +1

Let those who have never ever ever done a naughty cast the first stone, let the rest get down from that high horse before they get altitude sickness.

Sigh....

Very poor argument, iDave. Trouble with cheating in sports, is that it can prevent other, non-cheating athletes from achieving their goal. Meaning that even though they've stuck by the rules, there is no reward for them because some other competitor took the cowards way to success.

Ask Oscar Pereiro Sio how he thinks about 'winning' the TdF in 2006.

This man cheated, and got to stand on the top step of the podium in Paris, and bask in the glory of being the 'winner'.

[img] [/img]

Where was Oscar's moment of glory, the one he deserved for actually winning the race according to the rules?

they effectively defraud their "employer" (team funding, appearance, prizes, sponsorship - or all ultimately from the watching public, if you prefer) and they deny other (clean) athletes the status and potentially huge rewards that they merit

If I did that my employer/regulatory body should have the right to ensure that I don't do it again by sacking me and never rehiring me

Sigh all you like, but your reductionist approach is poorly thought out and asks for higher standards of behaviour than you are subjected to, or would tolerate. It also demonstrates a lack of appreciation for the way that professional sport has evolved.

iDave +1...Let those who have never ever ever done a naughty cast the first stone, let the rest get down from that high horse before they get altitude sickness.

Hey, lets apply that logic to motorists and speeding. Given that we all break the speed limit at some stage, no sanctions for any speeders. What a crock!

Sigh all you like, but your reductionist approach is poorly thought out

No it's not. As I've explained. iDave's logic is the one what is 'poorly thought out'.

Do you remember Oscar Pereiro Sio's glorious win in the 2006 TdF, his ride into Paris in his deserved Leader's Yellow Jersey, and his triumphant step up onto the podium in front of hundreds of thousands of race fayns and the World's media? No, thought not...

And why would that be, pray tell?

I think when someone has an epiphany like Millar then it is a good thing to allow/encourage rehabilitation
When they dont actually care and just want to be back in the money the drug cheat strip.

Forgiveness is fine if they look like/ really are repenting.

Why should this apply to cyclists alone. Until ALL other sports have a equally severe policy it's not really of any value.
Might I also suggest that if the reason why doping is banned is image then lets take our basball bats to those who publisise it. The paper do not tell all for moral reasons, they do it to sell. As does the cycling press.
The press are far more damaging to the sport than the drug takers.

Actually I fail to see a big problem. if a cyclist harms himself its his problem. No one has any right to suppress anothers to hurt them self. They do have a duty to allow him to do so.
So now we come to the idea of fairness. Why not allow more drugs. After all cyclists are pumped full of un natural stuff anyway. Allow it and it can be controled, ban it and it goes underground.
Finally I agree with iDave. Plus I would say it is none of our business. Unless we have a WADA expert lurking on the forum we are all talking uneducated bollocks.

Ok, let me clarify for the hard of thinking... I'm not suggesting that drug cheats get off free, that they be given a smack on the wrist, or even the bottom then allowed to go away and carry on.

I am suggesting that a lifetime ban is too harsh, and requires a standard of behaviour from a person doing a job that we would not expect from anyone else.

By all means have sanctions, by all means have year, two year bans, and have increased scrutiny afterwards, but to ban someone for life, esentially taking away a means to earn a living is extremely harsh and is not reflected elsewhere in society.

What iDave said.

Keyboard moralising really is too easy...even the idiots can do it!

What happens to other drug abusers that represent their country?

let's say a soldier?

elf, do I need a visa to visit your planet or just rose tinted specs?

Doping, as Millar explained, was running through the entire system. Teams encouraging it, UCI turning a blind eye, every man and his dog pretty much at it, the clean ones taunted and vilified.

What's the chance that Sio was clean? Given how close he was to winning a tour where doping was going on. Haven't seen much of him since...

uplink, use recreation drugs in the military and you're in trouble - you have to use the official and often experimental ones the MOD give you so you can fight more effectively

define "drugs" on a 1-10 scale. what is good what is bad, what enhances performance to what level? each number on the scale should be a different colour on the Ban "strip cheat" band the banned athletes have to wear. Then market the tops in JJB sports and all the cool kids can buy 'em and figure it out.

but to ban someone for life, esentially taking away a means to earn a living is extremely harsh

What if, as a result of their cheating, they denied another clean athlete the means to earn a living?

Dwain Chambers prevented other athletes from having the opportunity to go on and succeed, as well as having his team-mates stripped of their medals which they thought they'd won fairly and squarely.

Difference with something like speeding, is that it usually only affects one person; cheating in sports can affect many others who've done nothing wrong.

Maybe a lifetime ban is harsh, but athletes must be discouraged from cheating as much as possible.

Are we talking about lifetime bans or lifetime Olympic bans, Millar still seems to be earning a living, doesn't he?
EDIT: If an athlete can prove that they are clean and competitive, why shouldn't they compete at the highest level.
Isn't prison about rehabilitation and not punishment?

elf, do I need a visa to visit your planet or just rose tinted specs?

Behave, you'll just hurt yourself. 🙄

You need to possess the ability to actually think carefully about things, to visit my planet mate. 😀

Seems like all I have to do to visit yours, is get drugged up to the eyeballs and so out of it, rational thought is no longer possible..... 😉

[i]Maybe a lifetime ban is harsh[/i]

No 'maybe' about it.

Remember you are talking about people who have done nothing else since being 14-15-16 years old, who have no other skills, who work in an environment where this seasons results decide whether or not you have a job next year, whether your mortgage gets paid, or your kids get fed.

In that situation, taking stuff can be the difference between a job or not, and in that situation, the majority of people who condemn and shout about lifetime bans and hang 'em high, would do exactly the same.

Let me stress, again, I'm not suggesting leniency, I'm against drug taking in sport, I think it changes the way we view it, and as you have noted cheats others out of their rightful victories, but there is more to it than 'ban them all forever'.

So where did I say 'ban them all forever', eh? Eh? EH???

I imagine, if you got caught fiddling yer spenses at work, most employers would sack you. Such an act could follow you around and have a significant impact on your future career.

No 'maybe' about it.

Remember you are talking about people who have done nothing else since being 14-15-16 years old, who have no other skills, who work in an environment where this seasons results decide whether or not you have a job next year, whether your mortgage gets paid, or your kids get fed.

What about the other athletes who've done the same, then give up cos they've bin beaten by someone else so they don't beleive they're fast enough? Only to discover, often years later, that they were only ever beaten by a cheat?

So, you cheat, you get banned, you have to pursue another career. Diddums. Tough doo-doo. Should've thought about that before you decided to break the rules and cheat, innit?

I'm all for giving folk a second chance, me. Sure, give them the opportunity to make amends. I've no problem with that. I just think there should be an effective deterrent and incentive not to use drugs in sports.

2-year ban and 'carry on as you were' is not sufficient. Maybe '5-year ban and donate 50% of all future earnings from the sport to charidee' or something would be more effective as a deterrent. Would be a far more effective way of making amends than 'oh I'm so sorry I don't know what came over me I promise I'll be good now can I come back and make lots of money again please thanks'.

I'd ban Millar for his whiney voice, and Chambers for his stroppy face anyway. But then, I'm quite a reasonable sort of bloke tbh.

Has any race organiser ever tried to prosecute (or get the relevant authorities to prosecute) a competitor for fraud if they were found to have cheated? Especially where prize money is involved this could be obtaining money by deception.
If so, who, and what was the outcome?
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I'm in favour of the lifetime ban in principle. But then I remember Greg Rusestski (sp?) who failed a test for nandrolone because of a contanimated drink provided by the tennis governing body through some sponsorship deal, alway the odd case to be judged on it's merits. Bit like the death penalty, great idea if you are sure you have the right guy...

Remember you are talking about people who have done nothing else since being 14-15-16 years old, who have no other skills, who work in an environment where this seasons results decide whether or not you have a job next year, whether your mortgage gets paid, or your kids get fed.

If I was an accountant and was convicted of a money-laundering offence I would never be allowed to practice again, surely the same principle to apply to sportsmen?

iDave - Member
What's the chance that Sio was clean? Given how close he was to winning a tour where doping was going on. Haven't seen much of him since...

think you'll find he hd a bad crash in TDF that he never really recovered from hence his retirement.

(quietly) I agree with elf on this. 😉

Millar is a cheat. he wasnt forced to, he chose to. Boardman didnt cheat, mottet didnt , kimmage, pinotti.

Millar thought he was the cheese when he was at Cofidis, friends with Lance,the next big thing. Arrogent ****t .....milking his worlds win knowing he was EPO'd up to the max.

Sends out the wrong signs to the new blood coming into the sport. Comparisons cant be made to speeding etc its completely irrelevant and disproportionate.

It will be a sad day should Millar make a podium at the Olympics (wont happen anyway...too many better Time Triallists)

Imagine Cav winning road race.....all the papers will be focusing on Millar and his past. The riders wont want him there.

Listen to Campbell on Talksport website being interviewed today re Chambers, cheats etc.... says it all.

(bet Millar doesnt challenge it , much as Brailsford would love him to)

Lifetime bans from working if your expense claims aren't whiter than white. Life time driving ban if you break the speed limit.

[img] [/img]

bet Millar doesnt challenge it , much as Brailsford would love him to

The question for all those who think Millar shouldn't ride in the Olympics next year, do you also think Cav should give back his medal and jersey, and if not, what's the difference?

Has any race organiser ever tried to prosecute (or get the relevant authorities to prosecute) a competitor for fraud if they were found to have cheated? Especially where prize money is involved this could be obtaining money by deception.
If so, who, and what was the outcome?

Dwain Chambers had to pay back all the prize money he won during the time he admitted to doping. [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/2336495/Payback-time-for-disgraced-Chambers.html ]Article here.[/url] This was a stipulation made by the IAAF before he could compete again so I'm sure they must have used this sanction against other athletes.

Why Cav? Have I missed something?

Oh, do you mean because Millar assisted Cav's win?

do you mean because Millar assisted Cav's win?

Lifetime ban for all drug cheats, except cyclists obviously.

TBh the solution's simple- DRUG OLYMPICS. I want to see a 6 second hundred metres.

Northwind, if you are going to allow cheating can I do the hundred meters on a motorbike please?

Do they REALLY lose all the extra muscle mass gained when they come off the dope?

I'd guess not, otherwise they wouldn't test out of season.

I am suggesting that a lifetime ban is too harsh, and requires a standard of behaviour from a person doing a job that we would not expect from anyone else.

That's like saying murderers shouldn't get life prison sentences because someone who killed a dog didn't. 🙄

When really all sport is a game with rules and if you don't play by the rules you can't join in. Sports not designed to be inclusive, politically correct etc. It's a test of what you can do [u]within[/u] the rules.

No-one's arguing that phil, it's about what happens if you make a mistake. Society gives you a second chance if you break the rules.

I realise that about second chances. My question is should you get a second chance in sport?

I don't think you should, it's not like any other aspect of life. If you don't want to compete by the rules you can go and start your own olympics where drugs are allowed.

I quite like this quote from Trey Hardee

I don't think there should be a way back. That should be a lifetime ban. I think it should be "once and done" policy. Once you cross that moral boundary then you lose everything the Olympics stand for. It doesn't maybe mean that you are a horrible person and that you should be ostracised by your community, but it should mean that you are never allowed to compete again.

I am suggesting that a lifetime ban is too harsh, and requires a standard of behaviour from a person doing a job that we would not expect from anyone else.

Sorry but there are plenty of things that people in certain professions can do that will result in them losing their job. If I test postive for drugs I will in all likliehood loose my job and be unable to get another one in the industry. If a doctor or a teacher has an inappropriate realtionship with a patient/student then they too will loose their jobs and be unable to continue in their choosen profession. Athletes know the rules and the consequences for breaking them.

What about if those who get banned for life come back with a new identity, would that be OK? I imagine that they would act like reformed characters for a while before slipping back into their old ways.

Northwind - in many ways, you are so correct. As much as I would prefer life time bans etc, perhaps the reality is to allow a complete free for all. Pro sport is riddled with so much drug taking and ambiguity that it is so far from being pure or a level playing field that perhaps we are simply being too niaive to pretend otherwise?

With 24/7 sports and news coverage, there are millions of seals sitting waiting to be thrown the next fish for their consumption. If it comes with a new world record then so much the better.

So why not let the individuals make their own choices. If in the pursuit of glory (sic) they want to riddle their own bodies with drugs then let them live with their own consequences and like the Romans before us the appetite of the baying mob will continue to be satisfied.

Ironically I think we're all agonising over this so much is that two sports I care about most - cycling and athletics - are the two that take testing and sanctions most seriously. And as soon as you take things seriously it all becomes a lot more complex and we move steadily away from moral absolutes and easy outrage. We move into small-print and lawyers and committees and arbitration.

We're dealing with a world that runs a huge spectrum from being a bit crap with keeping the authorities informed of your diary, taking the wrong cough medicine, buying an over the counter 'performance enhancer' (and I don't mean helps you run faster) right through to elaborate institutionalised abuse, with team, doctor and sometimes sponsor collusion. A lot of the people stuck in the mud of controversy are the DIY enthusiasts, the clumsy and the stupid.

And the casual observer tuts and points and laughs and the rest of the sporting world breathes a sigh of relief that the spotlight is elsewhere. And no, I'm not condoning drug abuse. But I do still count myself a Millar fan, he's consistently good to watch and can be relied on for post-race insight that deviates from the PR-approved line.

Where do you draw the line with drugs? Didn't things start in the TdF with riders using brandy etc to help through the required pain levels.

But lets take the case of a Wayne Rooney or a Johnny Wilkinson who is carrying an injury. What is the moral difference between pumping them full of pain killers to allow them to perform for 90 or 80 mins and using a PED?

Stever - understand your comments, but how would you feel seeing Millar on an Olympic podium?

how would you feel seeing Millar on an Olympic podium?

What is the moral difference between pumping them full of pain killers to allow them to perform for 90 or 80 mins and using a PED?

Morally, one is cheating and one isn't.

Legally, one is banned one isn't.

I realise that about second chances. My question is should you get a second chance in sport?
I don't think you should, it's not like any other aspect of life.

Yes, why not?
What do you believe makes sport so unique that you're allowed a second chance if you murder someone, but not if you put a bit too much clen on your steak?

aracer - is that insinuating something?

phil.2 - but why is there a moral distinction? In both cases, medication (?) is being used to allow some to compete when they otherwise couldn't.

Presumably aracer's point was that Millar did play a part in Cav's WC win...

Ok - I see, I thought I had missed something!!

What do you believe makes sport so unique that you're allowed a second chance if you murder someone, but not if you put a bit too much clen on your steak?

I didn't say that. I said you shouldn't be allowed a second chance in sport. I didn't say where I think you should be given a second chance.

I agreed there was times when it is appropriate but to make some sort of case for second chances in sport based on wider society is disingenuous.

why is there a moral distinction?

Why do morals exist at all? Answer that and you can answer your own question. 🙂

ohh, and some pain killers are classed as PED's and banned by WADA. So like other drugs it is based on the affect they have on the human body.

Millar did play a part in Cav's WC win...

I agreed there was times when it is appropriate but to make some sort of case for second chances in sport based on wider society is disingenuous.

I disagree. You (or at least I) can't separate sport from the wider society. The participants are members of society and it's watched by members of the society and thus is part of society's framework. But either way what makes you think that you shouldn't be allowed second chances in sport? I'm not saying you shouldn't, but would like to hear your reasoning as to why sport should be different to other aspects of society.

But either way what makes you think that you shouldn't be allowed second chances in sport?

Essentially at the end of the day all sports are invented games with rules and it's saying these are the rules, stick to them or don't play.

There is nothing to stop anyone starting up a new game/sport where drug taking is excepted, body building is a good example of this.

So why no second chances, simply because I think the greatest deterrent to stop people taking drugs would be having 'no route back' once caught. As it is at the moment it's often worth the risk.

The question becomes shouldn't sport reflect society's approach of rehabilitation?

I think the damage done to society through the lies & cheating of supposed role models is greater than any positives that can be gained from giving them a second chance.

If anything giving them a second chance shows it's often worth the risk of disobeying the rules.

I guess that part comes down to the media and the way drugs scandals are headline news. Whereas with reformers like David Millar the story is never going to be as big.

Thanks for that.
I guess I don't quite agree, possibly because sport has never really been a significant part of my life. But it's always good to hear other people's views.
Cheers!

Where do you draw the line with drugs?

WADA. i have no idea how they decide what is acceptable and not - but i trust they have experts.

I'm in the ban for life camp. Except I'd go a bit further and also ban them from any role in coaching management, promotion or commentary too, for life. Write into every new racers licence that all monies earned in the sport from first appearance are forfeit if a drugs ban is picked up too, and that sponsorship deals have to have similar clause written in. No likey? Go get a proper job.

Edit: forgot about the lifetime ban on setting foot in race venue, stadium or training facility too.

Edit: forgot about the lifetime ban on setting foot in race venue, stadium or training facility too.

😀

Don't take the p, loads of caught dopers still making a living from the sport. If you don't think it's right as a competitor, why have them around at all?

Where do you draw the line with drugs?

WADA. i have no idea how they decide what is acceptable and not - but i trust they have experts.

The problem I have with drugs cheats in sport is the effect on others. Lets say A. Sprinter uses drugs to get to the Olympics and wins the final. He is then caught out, disqualified and the medals redistributed accordingly. All happy and fine. But what about B. Sprinter who didn't even get his moment in the sun due to the fact that he chose the clean route. There's no redress there. They can't rerun the Olympics to allow those who didn't qualify due to cheating bastards a fair crack of the whip.

Pumping a footballer with pain-killers to get through a match is not against the rules. Simple. Certain performance enhancing drugs are. It comes down to the rules. If the rules say don't do it and you do then tough. You know the rules, you know the consequences, you make your choice. Crying about it afterwards is just pointless and immature.

Pumping a footballer with pain-killers to get through a match is not against the rules. Simple. Certain performance enhancing drugs are. It comes down to the rules. If the rules say don't do it and you do then tough. You know the rules, you know the consequences, you make your choice. Crying about it afterwards is just pointless and immature.

The rules are applied inconsistently however. Chambers has been banned from the Olympics but would not be banned in other countries. Other countries have "glossed" over the issue such as the USA. It is also inconsistently applied in the UK and it should be noted that some athletes have never been "caught" taking drugs but have been banned because they have missed tests. I am not making excuses however it is never simple.

I however need a doctor's not to explain that while the asthma drugs I take are illegal and banned on the WADA list, I, in fact, am not doing anything illegal. Or should I not be allowed to compete?
Not all black and white is it?

Chambers has been banned from the Olympics but would not be banned in other countries.

He knew the rules and made his choice. He is banned from the Olympics. He is still probably making a bloody good living from the sport.

As for those who missed tests I believe that they have more than one opportunity. If my employer wants me somewhere at a certain time and I don't show and don't have a good reason for it I can understand them being a little annoyed. If I then do this on numerous occasions then I could expect the disciplinary procedures to be invoked.

Remember a while back a Tennis play from NZ Mark Nielson receiving a 2 year ban for failing a drugs test ... due to his anti-balding treatment.

Guess he was stupid for not having all his meds checked (which seems to be a common occurrence) but should he also receive a life time ban ?

Not everything is black and white.