[Closed] Drinking With Racists

Maybe not, but the reality is that it is an insidious process which starts with small issues and eventually ends up in things like ethnic cleansing.

That's one of the funniest things I've read on here! We're talking about a 50-odd year old working class Geordie, not Adolph bloody Hitler!!

Come riding with us in Hexham on a Wednesday night. There are often (but not always) pub stops. Last night was at the Sun Inn in Catton. I hope to go back more this summer 😀

So binners and shibboleth, tell me at what point you would think it appropriate to challenge racist behaviour, and why you would chose that moment. I'm really interested to hear your views.

As I illustrated in my past post, if his views manifested themselves in the form of violence, abuse or discrimination against actual "darkies", then I'd be delighted to challenge him.

Gobbing off in a pub, as I said, is probably no more than bluster and challenging it has the potential to cause more agro.

I think you're confusing genuinely malicious and violent racism ie the BNP, with people who are just... well... a bit ignorant and maybe a bit thick. Its the INTENT that's important. The subtext. Sometimes its social conditioning and a reflection of your surroundings

My ex was from Whitehaven. At the last census it was the 'whitest' place in Britain. 99%+ white christian. I remember being genuinelly shocked hearing the 'N' word in general conversation. But mainly it wasn't because they were rabid nazi's, it was just that its a very insular community, and they had never encountered any ethnic minorities like most of us had. There was no incitement or mallice intended. And if I'd have got all lefty and started accusing everyone of being Nazi's, I doubt I'd have either changed anyone's views, or made any friends

Your argument is the "if you have a spilff you'll end up on Herion" one. Its just utter and complete nonsense I'm afraid!

My mother is racist, and doesn’t see that there’s a problem with that as she’s ‘entitled to her opinions’. She tried to make me promise when I was 13 that I’d never marry a black man.

She’ll go on about how black and asian men target white girls and get them hooked on drugs and forced into prostitution, and how England didn’t have any drug problems until we started letting in immigrants. How all Muslims have forced marriages. She categorises Hindus and Sikhs as Muslims – when I pointed out that my nan’s neighbours were Hindu and not Muslim, as my mother was saying, she said, “What’s the difference?”. I tried explaining the different pantheons and beliefs, but she started glazing over. They come over here to claim benefits whilst at the same time stealing our jobs, all drive on the same licence because they look the same, etc.

I’ve had to explain to her the reason why my brother’s friend looked a bit flabbergasted is because he isn’t normally referred to as being ‘coloured’ or ‘half-caste’. She makes jokes about wearing a white sheet and joining the Ku-Klux-Clan.

Bizarre thing is, she doesn’t really encounter non-white people – but when she does, she actually gets along with them really well. My best friend when I was growing up had Jamaican parents, and my mom loved them to bits. I called them Uncle Cleve and Auntie Heather. When I stayed over on a weekend, they’d take me to their very traditional Catholic church (although my mom for ages assumed it was a gospel church, she was quite surprised when I explained the music was mostly hymns in Latin…). She got on well with my nan’s neighbours. Tragically, she sees them as being the exception rather than the rule - I guess that’s what happens when you’re not terribly bright and your world view is formed almost entirely from reading the Daily Mail. I’ve tried challenging her, I’ve tried educating her, but some people are very comfortable with their prejudices.

it is an insidious process which starts with small issues and eventually ends up in things like ethnic cleansing.

Godwin!

It's not though, is it. It's the vestiges of the previous generation's attitudes, and it's dying out as they are. The uncomfortable truth is that they're probably no more or less racist than anyone else (from a demographic perspective) but to them it's acceptable to make such comments, whereas the next generation know to keep it to themselves.

I think Shibboleth is right about pub bluster too. He probably only said it because he thought it'd get a laugh.

Not that any of this makes it right, of course. Just that I don't think we'll be seeing a Geordie version of the Third Reich in the immediate future.

You could just share some 'PC gone mad' banter with them about 'rewriting history'. 😉

Are you familar with the growth of facism in the 20th century? In the main it came about in drinking establishments with a rise to aggressive and intimidatory behaviour from what might be called passive or non violent "Gobbing off in a pub", which was at the time treated as probably "no more than bluster".

Regretably, the view taken at the time with some justification was to leave it be as "challenging it has the potential to cause more agro".

They weren't wrong, by the time the main, working class, protagnist was the same age as your 50-odd year old working class Geordie, he'd started World War 2 and upwards of 40 million people lost their lives as a result.

Since then in this world, we've continued to experience a series of racially aggreivated wars and ethnic cleansing activities continuing right to this day.

So run it past me again, why precisely should any of us tolerate this sort of gobbing off and allow it to go unchallenged??

Binners, Shibboleth; as much as you may dispute

Maybe not, but the reality is that it is an insidious process which starts with small issues and eventually ends up in things like ethnic cleansing

My mother is racist, and doesn’t see that there’s a problem with that as she’s ‘entitled to her opinions’. She tried to make me promise when I was 13 that I’d never marry a black man.

Dad: "At least he's not a Protestant."

An interesting twist on an old theme.

Not that any of this makes it right, of course. Just that I don't think we'll be seeing a Geordie version of the Third Reich in the immediate future

"If Adolf Hitler flew in today
They'd send [s]a limousine[/s] the Metro anyway"

Doesn't really have the same ring, does it

In the main it came about in drinking establishments with a rise to aggressive and intimidatory behaviour from what might be called passive or non violent "Gobbing off in a pub"

Once again I doff my cap to you BB. You're raising the bar on outrageously brainless comments.

I did my dissertation on photomontage and the emergence of political art in 1930's Germany, so I know a fair bit on the subject, yes. Certainly enough to know that that statement is even more absurd than your first. Quite an achievement

Berm Bandit - Member

Are you familar with the growth of facism in the 20th century? In the main it came about in drinking establishments with a rise to aggressive and intimidatory behaviour from what might be called passive or non violent "Gobbing off in a pub", which was at the time treated as probably "no more than bluster".

Can you point me in the direction of any resources that support this???

My ex was from Whitehaven. At the last census it was the 'whitest' place in Britain. 99%+ white christian. I remember being genuinelly shocked hearing the 'N' word in general conversation. But mainly it wasn't because they were rabid nazi's, it was just that its a very insular community, and they had never encountered any ethnic minorities like most of us had. There was no incitement or mallice intended. And if I'd have got all lefty and started accusing everyone of being Nazi's, I doubt I'd have either changed anyone's views, or made any friends

I grew up in a 99.9% white community, and I used to think like you do that it was just ignorance not malice - until years later, I was back in a local pub at christmas time having a pint with some of my ex-classmates (mostly farmers). Pretty quickly (somehow) they got round to talking about the idea that Hitler wasn't really such a bad guy and he did a good job for his country dealing with immigrants etc

I told them they were racist idiots then left, and I haven't spoken to them since. I was never particularly mates with anyway though to be fair.

To me its a case of pick and choose your battles. Unless you want to risk loosing this group as drinking buddies ( I hesitate to say friends) then go carefully

Just " why not?" to the "I couldn't work for a darkie" - hear the answer tehn move it on. Or think of some positive things. Does he like a curry? Local business that is well thought of?

Binners you never fail to amaze me....

To quote a wiser man than me:

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” Sir Winston Churchill

..and that is the point, not the imminent rise of the Fourth Reich in Gateshead. The point being that it is best and easiest challenged when weakest. Sorry if they didn't teach you sufficient logic at Art school.

Can you point me in the direction of any resources that support this???

If I chose my drinking buddies based on my opinions and beliefs, I'd drink alone a lot more often! 😉

The amount of times I've sat in on tea breaks on sites and heard white Bristolians be casually racist, anti-immigration, etc etc...It's not just Geordies.

I have sometimes mentioned that I'm an immigrant and that not so long ago their attitudes would have been directed towards me. "Oh you're alright, you're Irish" or something along those lines is often the response I get. Without a hint of irony 🙄

I think, like some others on the thread, that when this kind of thing happens you have a moral obligation to speak out in some way. Walking away (literally, in your case) doesn't change anything. That said, I remember an incident a couple of years ago (at the football) when I did nothing due to cowardice. Thinking about that, and the fact that I could have done something makes me feel ashamed now, but I understand how difficult it can feel to do something there and then, especially on your own or when there are people around that you otherwise like. Similar to others have said, when I've said stuff to colleagues/ associates to the effect of 'I think that's unacceptable, and I'm not interested in hearing it' it's been more or less effective (you don't necessarily need to do it in a way that embarrasses someone in front of the group though).

RE the mythical hotbed of racism that is the North East, I'm sorry to disappoint some posters above, but whilst undoubtedly there is implicit and explicit racism in some circles, workplaces, cultures... it is no better or worse than anywhere else I've experienced. Unfortunately, I think some form of prejudice is found in everyone, but fortunately more and more people are reflexive enough to realise and improve their own attitudes and behaviour. To say 'they're just some backwards idiots in some village/the NE, they'll always be like that, so forget about it...' does a discredit to the majority (nowadays) who detest the kind of sentiments in the OP, and shows yourself in a poor light.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” Sir Winston Churchill

We best get the troops on the streets pront, to avoid the impending holocaust in Gateshead then eh? Will the Scots be ready for the floods of refugees staggering across the border any day now?

Sorry if they didn't teach you sufficient logic at Art school

We tended to think laterally or even abstractly. You should try it. If logic leads to some of the conclusions you're reaching, you can keep it thanks

TooTall - Member
If you base your experience of the North East on Sunderland, then you have a smaller town mentality than anyone around you.

I'll have you know I've sinced moved to the far reaches of Houghton-Le-Spring, walk the dog near Chester-Le-Street and once evn met a bloke from Durham!!

Seriously though, I meant absolutely no offence to any North East folk and have lived in cities, towns and villages all over the UK - I base my experience of the North East against the background of my whole life, not the last ten years.

We best get the troops on the streets pront, to avoid the impending holocaust in Gateshead then eh? Will the Scots be ready for the floods of refugees staggering across the border any day now?

Yes binners, we see your point. For those who experience racism, your trivialisation of it isn't anywhere near as funny as you think it is.

hotbed of racism that is the North East

It's mostly not serious (I think) and will fall apart if questioned.

I'm not trying to trivialise racism. I'm tryin to draw a distinction between violent and malicious racism, which no right-minded person could possibly condone, and incidence of some people just not being too bright/a bit ignorant

And just to point out that a Geordie gobbing off in the pub doesn't necessarily lead to Strebinica.

End of the day, I live in the people republic of Chorlton. I could sit in the pub til i died of old age and I'd have more chance of hearing the mating call of a unicorn than a racist remark

One of the reasons I love living there 😀

Other people's experiences may differ but I think coming across all Guardian-like and "I have never been quate so offended in all my life" is the worst option.

IMO, either you can half laugh/half seriously say something like "come on, Barry, you know that's not true" enough to signal that it's not OK, or you can just ignore it - because you're not going to change their mind anyway.

a slightly less aggressive way would be to say "Really? why not?" get them to explain why it's a bad thing, they may have suddenly come over all shy

---

We're talking about a 50-odd year old working class Geordie, not Adolf bloody Hitler!

It is a bit of a stretch from the OP to that comment you were replying to, I agree, but otoh if you look at who the second tier of (accused) war criminals in the Yugoslavian wars were, they were often small-town, poorly educated nobodies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goran_Had%C5%BEi%C4%87

 

Yes binners, we see your point. For those who experience racism, your trivialisation of it isn't anywhere near as funny as you think it is.

binners please tell me you're not attempting humour.... I'd accept self medication, or something like my mum smoked when she was pregnant as a reasonable, but not humour FFS !....

In my experience central Newcastle is actually more tolerant than it was - I work in the city centre and we have a few Indians in our workforce. It is a professional environment so nothing is ever said or even thought.

However I think South East Northumberland is considerably worse. Ashington, Blyth area is where it is worse. phrases such as **** Shop, darkies etc still exist and are used by a very large proportion. I live near Drac and all my family are racist in one way or another - my brother and I seem to be the start of it being more liberal (as in we have worked away in other cities) whereas my family have lived and worked here all their lives. My in-laws are terrible they wont even eat that "foreign muck" or "darkie food", My gran claims all Indians smell of curry for example. They aren't bad people its just they are ignorant and non-tolerant to these other cultures. In the town I live in we have no black people at all and only 1 family of Sub-continental Indians that yep run a shop that opened on xmas day so it confirms there opinions.

I wouldn't just say its the North East of England though I imagine it happens in other working class areas of this country and others - most areas away from capital and large cities of places like Italy, Spain, France, Holland etc will all have it in the far flung corners.

I can't stand racism.

You should have gone and found a white table cloth and cut a couple of eye holes in it and dropped it over his head

seriously though, it is a difficult situation and I guess you would have to be there to know if it was meant and how to react but I would have said something to make them think/shut up.

To OP I think you are talking to someone (53 yrs old) who was brought up using different terms from yours. Yes, they don't like foreigners but then perhaps they don't like everyone they don't trust at all.

Funny thing is that one of my friend (a Londoner) is older than 53 and the amount of "funny" labellings that come from him is astonishing especially when he grew up in London in a very mixed community. Now he lives in the NE Geordieland. Sometimes when he got excited about an issue he would use certain terms that are considered as racist nowadays but to him it was normal language usage, so on many occasions I had to stop him in his track by reminding him we were in year 2011 and that he might get himself into trouble by using certain terms in the public.

In private I tend to let him be since that's the way he is and the way he expresses himself and I would rather be with a person that is honest about his views than someone who try to pretend. But I would remind him in public just to help him avoid embarrassing himself.

I doubt he (your friend) would use the term in a large public arena put it this way.

Tragically, she sees them as being the exception rather than the rule

that is exactly the argument an acquaintance of mine used to use, to a mutual friend.

"yeah, but you're not like the rest of them"

Incidentally could I just add for the sake of the hard of thinking that IMHO suggesting that the North East is racist is about the same as saying all [pick your own minority] are lazy/steal/smell etc etc . Any comments I've made are general and not intended to be specific to that region.

binners please tell me you're not attempting humour.... I'd accept self medication, or something like my mum smoked when she was pregnant as a reasonable, but not humour FFS !....

I have absolutely no idea what that statement means. It makes even less sense than your previous ones

Hang on... is you sayin' I is racist?

I am not sure I would tar someone who makes a racist comment through ignorance as a racist, they are just ignorant. Therefore, if faced with such a situation I would hope I would reply "I would rather work for an asian who grafts than a white bloke who sits on his arse doing sweet FA expecting me to do all the work".

Such ignorance often comes from fear of the unknown, which is a pretty common human trait, and therefore I think one should educate rather judge.

As far as pub banter leading to Armageddon, surely it is the existence of political leaders who take advantage of such ignorance that are the prime cause, obviously if there was no such ignorance they would have nothing to work on but is that realistic in the short term?

It is a bit of a stretch from the OP to that comment you were replying to, I agree, but otoh if you look at who the second tier of (accused) war criminals in the Yugoslavian wars were, they were often small-town, poorly educated nobodies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goran_Had%C5%BEi%C4%87

But as I said, we're talking about the North East of England, and I doubt our 50-odd your old beer fan is planning a military coup any time soon!

Someone earlier hit the nail on the head - this is a remnant attitude of a previous generation and it's best ignored.

Hang on... is you sayin' I is racist?

I'm sure you're not, coming from the cultural hotbed that is South Manchester binners, but you certainly don't seem too bothered by it.

There's a difference between "not bothered by racism" and "having a sense of perspective," is there not? Just because people aren't suggesting death by stoning in response to a Geordie bloke in a pub going "them brown people, they're not like us are they, eh?" doesn't mean that we're all secretly sitting here thinking he's a voice of the people, telling it like it is.

I love STW for its discussions, but I've never known anywhere like it for people twisting others' words.

There's a difference between "not bothered by racism" and "having a sense of perspective," is there not?

Of course.

"them brown people, they're not like us are they, eh?"

I've never known anywhere like it for people twisting others' words.

Oh teh ironing. 🙂

Its not a case of that DD. I just think that you need to choose your battles. My opinion of a lot of people of a left-leanignn persussion (I include myself here) tend to have a knee-jerk reaction to these things

Some old bloke gobbing off in a pub is a lot different from the violent intent of the BNP (or the rampant anti-semitism of some muslims). We should treat it as such. And as I've said, saying one leads inevitably to the other is the same as the one that says having a spliff leads to heroin addiction. Its just patent nonsense.

The casual racist should be ignored or, better still, laughed at for their obvious ignorance. For what its worth, I certainly wouldn't be sat drinking every week with people voicing opinions like that

She got on well with my nan’s neighbours. Tragically, she sees them as being the exception rather than the rule - I guess that’s what happens when you’re not terribly bright

Binners you surprised me I thought your first post was quality sarcasm as usual. however I think if we let views to go unchallenged inpubs and from our "mates" we are accpeting and tolerating those views. I am not saying that the OP's actions will stop or cure racism but not that long ago here we could openly discriminate against non white folk. It is a good thing we cannot and part of this came from challenging the racists. Letting it go wont really help either.
I lived in devon when the race riots in the north west were on and people, at work, asked me if I knew any... I looked at the tv intently to see if I did and said no I dont think any of those are my mates...they actually meant if I knew some non white folk. I worked for Mencap and the manager was gay [ ire it was liberal tolernaceville]. they did however have np concept of a wrold not made up of 99% white people. They struggled to beleieve me that it wa simpossible to not know some of them.
It is not hard to differentiate ignorance from racism in general life. They require different response but should both be challenged.
Being treated unfavourably due to skin colour is wrong and we should not let it go IMHO

The casual racist should be ignored or, better still, laughed at for their obvious ignorance

I don't agree with that. If you make it unacceptable and change the mind of the 'casual' racist then the hardcore are more isolated and look even more out of touch. As it stands the hardcore are surrounded by a protective barrier of acceptable/accepted casual racism.

Some old bloke

He's not that old is he? 52 or 53? I would consider him to be of a generation that "should know better". He would have been born in what...59/60?

Look, I see exactly where you're coming from binners. And, tbh, you live in the North so I'd expect some of it. Nobody's saying that it's going to lead to an ethnic cleansing of the NE, but challenging his perspective is good. I managed to change some of the opinions of my 75 year old Mum - not al of them 🙄 but enough to make her think before she blames Ireland's ills on the immigrants living down the road.

How do you think this fella (GrahamS's mate I mean) is bringing up his kids then?

A good friend of mine pointed out some years ago that a lot of the type of people the OP is on about will sit in a pub drinking and talking racist crap, then go out and cheer the black players in their football team.......

Incidentally, as a thought exercise,

We live in an age where casual racism against people of a different skin colour generates a massive reaction, but casual racism against those who look like us is still tolerated. Seems the less "different" the demographic, the slower we are to play the 'racism' card.

Case in point was someone referring to someone from Scotland as a "jock" yesterday; the STW Massive duly took it in the manner it was intended, which was as an affectionate quip. If a similar remark had been make about someone of a different skin colour, we'd all have been reaching for the pitchforks instead.

So. If we crossed out "darkie" and put "froggie" in the OP, would we all still have the same opinion? How about "jock"?

only because we stopped them throwing bannnas and booing which happened until the 80's [ even to England players *and still occurs today [ les soften her but quite frequent abroad.
It did not stop because we ignored it that is the point and godd example PP

Today the fans still chant I would rather be a **** than a Nation we are playing so it is hardly all gone

I remember being in Anfield for a game against Blackburn. The referee (or linesman) was Uriah Rennie and Blackburn had a black striker playing up front...Nathan somebody...was it Blake? Anyway, Liverpool won the game 2-1...with the winner coming from Paul Ince.

The racist abuse I heard from fans behind me towards the linesman, referee and towards the black Blackburn player was absolutely shocking...as was the delight when Paul Ince scored.

I'm still haunted by my not saying anything for fear of having the shit kicked out of me 😐

I have absolutely no idea what that statement means.

I think this says more about you than it does about the actual statement. Could I suggest the following might be a useful addition to your book shelf?

[img] [/img]

Oh teh ironing.

Ah, I was paraphrasing, rather than deliberately misunderstanding someone so I could get outraged about it.

Raspberries.

It has to be said I've challenged racism once or twice. Working in construction, you see a lot of it, and on more than one occasion I've had someone tell me a racist 'joke', and I've either said "sorry, that's not funny, I'm not into that" or stopped them haplfway through when I realised where it was going. That does piss them off a bit, I can tell you.........

Oddly the bloke in question is quite well-travelled - he's a very keen diver and been on diving holidays around Turkey, Egypt, Tunisia and other parts of the African coast.

Case in point was someone referring to someone from Scotland as a "jock" yesterday; the STW Massive duly took it in the manner it was intended, which was as an affectionate quip.

Actually it was directed at me funnily enough, and yeah I'm quite happy with that term.

I'm not outraged, more exasperated, tbh 😐

Bookshelf? Look BB. We've established i went to art college. So obviously i can't actually read. Can you get it as an audio book? Are there illustrations? If there's pictures, I could probably get my head round it. Hey... If there's not, I could do some. I'm great with the crayons and It'd make me feel special.

Could you do a quick synopsis for me please. Shouldn't be a problem. You're clearly a bright boy

I'd have called him on it,

You like to think that, don't you? Everyone does. It's something clearly wrong and using inappropriate laguage to express that wrongness.
BUT
[url= http://www.simplypsychology.org/asch-conformity.html ]Soloman Asch proved that most people knowing the difference between right and wrong will bow to peer pressure and accept wrong as right[/url] In Asch's experiments, the peer group was around the same size as the OP's and the subjects would contradict the evidence plainly in front of them if that's what the group wanted.
And if you really want to see where this leads, read up on [url= http://www.experiment-resources.com/stanley-milgram-experiment.html ]Stanley Milgram's subsequent experimets.[/url]

never underestimate the power of a mob or a uniform

Has there ever been 'Jock Bashing' though?

Case in point was someone referring to someone from Scotland as a "jock" yesterday; the STW Massive duly took it in the manner it was intended, which was as an affectionate quip. If a similar remark had been make about someone of a different skin colour, we'd all have been reaching for the pitchforks instead.

Are you really this stupid or are you being deliberately obtuse? I'm not aware that Scottish people are still discriminated against in the job market for instance. Or that the word jock recalls a legacy of slavery etc like the N word. We are open about 'racist banter' with the Scottish or French because we don't have a recent history of widespread discrimination against them. I would argue it's different with the Irish because we do have more of a history of racism towards them.

The racist abuse I heard from fans behind me towards the linesman, referee and towards the black Blackburn player was absolutely shocking...as was the delight when Paul Ince scored.

I honestly think a big part of the appeal of football for many people is the chance to let out all their unpleasant tendencies in a big group environment. 😐

Has there ever been 'Jock Bashing' though?

[img] [/img]

Did Longshanks call them jocks?

Are you really this stupid or are you being deliberately obtuse?

Are you intentionally only reading half of my post? Go read the first line again. It's a hypothetical question.

We are open about 'racist banter' with the Scottish or French because we don't have a recent history of widespread discrimination against them.

So what you're saying is, it's ok to be racist with some people but not others?

Names for groups of people I think are only bad if there are negative connotations attached to them. So the N word might be derived from the same route as 'black' and be etymologically benign, but it's the stigma attached to it by society. It's arbitrary, yes, but that's people for you.

I didn't think the word 'Jock' was considered offensive.. likewise I'm not aware of anyone resenting use of the term 'taff'. Are any of the Brits here offended by being called 'Rosbif' by the French?

I would argue it's different with the Irish because we do have more of a history of racism towards them.

Ok, here's two jokes.

How was copper wire invented? Two Scotsmen fighting over a penny.

Ireland's worst air disaster occurred early this morning when a small two-seater Cessna plane crashed into a cemetery. Irish search and rescue workers have recovered 1826 bodies so far and expect that number to climb as digging continues into the night.

By your argument, the first is fine and the second unacceptable, yes?

So what you're saying is, it's ok to be racist with some people but not others?

No, I'm saying it's best to avoid using words that will genuinely cause offence and upset - calling a Scottish person a jock is imo unlikely to do that, calling a black person a n*****r almost certainly will. It's pretty obvious really.

I didn't think the word 'Jock' was considered offensive.. likewise I'm not aware of anyone resenting use of the term 'taff'. Are any of the Brits here offended by being called 'Rosbif' by the French?

Same here, the only reference I have of using it is to a Scottish guy I went to school with. He was called Andrew but wanted to be called Jock, even by the teachers...

Are any of the Brits here offended by being called 'Rosbif' by the French?

I think I'd prefer that to "yorkshire pudding."

I didn't think the word 'Jock' was considered offensive..

By your argument, the first is fine and the second unacceptable, yes?

Pretty much yeah. The first one is based on a Scottish stereotype of being thrifty which has a basis in reality and is hardly a massive insult.

The second one is based on the stereotype of Irish people as being thick - we used to characterise them as sub-human. It's also not that long ago that there were 'no blacks, no dogs, no irish' signs in pubs. Maybe the joke is ok with your Irish mate in the pub if that's the kind of banter you have....

[img] [/img]

j_me - Member

"I didn't think the word 'Jock' was considered offensive.."

My gran thought it was fine to use the word ****

That's not evidence that jock is offensive though is it?

Perfectly willing to accept that it is offensive, but as I say the only context I've heard/used it in is a self-applied nickname by a school friend.

So what you're saying is, it's ok to be racist with some people but not others?

Generally it's more acceptable to be racist about the white folks than the darker ones.

For the record, I don't mind being called a Jock or being the butt of the many assorted jokes about being a tight-fisted, skirt-wearing, deep-fried-mars-bar-eating alcoholic with a heart condition.

Banter poking fun at perceived national stereotypes is fine by me (provided the poker doesn't mind being poked back of course).

🙄

calling a Scottish person a jock is imo unlikely to do that, calling a black person a n*****r almost certainly will. It's pretty obvious really.

Obvious? I wouldn't refer to a Scotsman as a 'jock' any more than I'd call people terms like nip, paddy, frog etc. unless it was someone I knew really well. It's disrespectful.

Why have one rule for one and another for another? The Scots let us get away with casual racism so that makes it ok?

Personally I find the term Jock no more offensive than the terms "paddy", "mick", "wop", "dego" or "ignorant English **** sucking ****er"

For the record, I don't mind being called a Jock or being the butt of the many assorted jokes about being a tight-fisted, skirt-wearing, deep-fried-mars-bar-eating alcoholic with a heart condition.

I find that deeply offensive. I can't stand mars bars, however they're presented

Obvious? I wouldn't refer to a Scotsman as a 'jock' any more than I'd call people terms like nip, paddy, frog etc. unless it was someone I knew really well. It's disrespectful.

Why have one rule for one and another for another? The Scots let us get away with casual racism so that makes it ok?

Nor would I, but I was trying to explain to you why one is generally considered much worse than the other - even though it's really ****ing obvious. 🙄

Generally it's more acceptable to be racist about the white folks than the darker ones.

Again, that's because white people have historically been the colonial masters exploiting/discriminating against just about every other race around the world for the last few hundred years. I'm genuinely amazed that people can't see the difference.

The first one is based on a Scottish stereotype of being thrifty which has a basis in reality and is hardly a massive insult.

The stereotype isn't "thrifty," the stereotype is penny-pinching and mean with their money. Of course it's an insult.

For balance though, here's an Irish joke that doesn't rely on stereotypes:

Did you know double-glazing was invented by an Irishman? Paddy O'Doors.

How do you feel about that one? Acceptable?

Why not stop all the pointless bickering and just follow this link https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ then we'll all know who's a rampant bigot and whos a doyen of polite society

Even if it is an insult it's a pretty mild one - and again, it doesn't tie in to a history of dehumanising the Scots.

CBA explaining this any further. I suspect you're just trolling tbh.

Nor would I, but I was trying to explain to you why one is generally considered much worse than the other - even though it's really ****ing obvious.

I'm well aware of what is and isn't obvious, thanks. I'm not looking for a history lesson, I'm trying to get to the nub of what everyone else thinks.

Again, that's because white people have historically been the colonial masters exploiting/discriminating against just about every other race around the world for the last few hundred years. I'm genuinely amazed that people can't see the difference.

..and that makes it ok to be racist about Poles and Germans?

Only challenged it once! In a pub near my local town, had caught the bus after an early few in derby. Went into pub, 2 couples in there, two bar staff and one complete piss head. Lewis Hamilton was second in the grand prix where he won the world title on the last corner or whatever it was. Said piss head was screaming at the telly die you black ****, aaaah your not good enough you black this that and the other!! I just couldn't stand by any longer because it was so vile so I ripped into the ****. The mrs sat there in stoney silence as I tore into him, normally she would be telling me to shut up etc!! It made me feel very uneasy for a long while after knowing people thought like that but most of all were happy to shout it in public!!

I suspect you're just trolling tbh.

I'm not trolling, it's called "having a discussion," I thought it would be interesting to explore (as I've said three times now). Radical concept I know, but if you can't debate your opinion without it having to be an argument then the failing there isn't mine.