[Closed] Double dip recession part 2

Are you trying to start an argument TJ?

So tory apologists. How are you going to explain this away then?

I couldn't give a tit personally. They are all bollocks.

what makes you think it would have been any better under labour?

What defines an apologist?

The British Chambers of Commerce and the Institute of Directors both called on the government to show "leadership", urging Osborne to take advantage of low interest rates to borrow for public investment.

hardly the usual rhetoric from these people is it - slagging off a tory chancellor.

Have you thought of going outside for a bike ride?

jam bo - Member

what makes you think it would have been any better under labour?

the fact that the polices followed by labour brought us out of recession - the tories took us back into recession.

Thats what cutting like they have done does - causes recession- and it doesn't even do what they want it to do - reduce the deficit because of increased benefits bills and decreased tax take

Good

Economic growth requires a constant increase in the amount of the goods and services produced in our economy.

The worlds resources are finite - the fact that we have reigned back in the unsustainable and damaging clamour for 'growth' is a good thing, isn't it?

How can constant growth be a good thing

IanMunro - Member

Have you thought of going outside for a bike ride?

Not long back ta muchly

and it doesn't even do what they want it to do - reduce the deficit because of increased benefits bills and decreased tax take

Hate to admit it but TJ makes an awfully good point.

Are you trying to start an argument TJ?

osbournes slowly strangling the crying baby

mastiles_fanylion - Member
I couldn't give a tit personally. They are all bollocks.

😀

as far as I see it.

we are in the middle of the biggest financial shitstorm in a century, no one has a clue how to fix it and the idea that another political party who's main differential point seem to be they wear different coloured ties could magic it away is frankly laughable.

most of the eurozone continues to grow

[img] ?s=eugnemuq&d1=20100101&d2=20120726[/img]

Regardless of who is in power they will have to face double dip recession that will last for at least 10 years. Fact!

It might even be triple dip recession when Spain and the likes go down ...

There is no climbing out from this shite hole for sometime now put it this way.

Gone were the days of ear to ear grin of the NuLabour years and in with the Tories that become the punching bag.

Yes, the blame game does not work anymore and sooner or later the zombies will roam the street again demanding for more by holding everyone to ransom left right and centre.

Well pointed out Zulu Eleven.

There is a lot wrong with this government but the IMF is still agreeing with Gideon (but saying it may need revising in a few months if no pick up) and IMF is still saying more public sector wage cuts needed that is hardly the Labour view is it?

We need some more spending on infrastructure and houses - crazy not to do it when builders desperate for work and some tax cuts on low paid to stimulate work and give those in work more spending money. Apart from that we are in a debt induced recession (caused unequivocally by New Labour) and with all our trading partners in deep debt what can be done? This will take at least a decade - look at Japan, still recovering from the 1980s debt blow out.

jam bo - Member

as far as I see it.

we are in the middle of the biggest financial shitstorm in a century, no one has a clue how to fix it and the idea that another political party who's main differential point seem to be they wear different coloured ties could magic it away is frankly laughable.

+ 1000

Most politicians when interviewed over this look like rabbits in the headlamps

Sigh

Really TJ you do let your hatred of the Tories cloud your logic if you think things would be different under a Labour government

The last spending plan we had from a Labour Government was from Chancellor Darling for 2010-2015 which differed from Osbourne's spending plan for the same period by 40 billion. That's 8 billion a year. UK government spending for 2013 will be 677 billion. So 8 billion is close to being a rounding error and would make no difference to the speed of any recovery.

But to be fair, any calculations made by Darling are so out of touch with the current situation as to be meaningless.

I honestly do not believe a different Government could have done anything significantly better (or worse possibly) than the current shower. For the most part it is a global problem, not a local one.

I think if we're all honest, we were headed for a recession whether we liked it or not. So, really it's how GB, its crew and passengers are steered through the shitstorm that's up for question.

It's pretty obvious that the scared rabbits currently don't seem to know what they're up to. Our chancellor comes across as better at snorting coke and shagging hookers than running the economy of a G8 country. His boss is too busy making sure that the remnants of the NHS are sold off to mates while behind the scenes, our schools and horrifically, our police stations are being readied as the next fertile orchard ready for the capitalist scrumpers.

Would Milliband (either brother) and Balls do better? My hairy arse they would. They might ease it with some borrowing from Peter to pay Paul for a half decade or so.

So, time for something new. Let's start by protecting what's left of the NHS and keeping our education system and security & protection untainted by the corporations who would wish to exploit it. Then (as I hear Centrica reporting massive profits on the news), lets seize energy, transport (railways especially), water and communications back from those bastards who squeeze us for every penny they can, and repeatedly give us shit service. Over. And over. Again. We can worry about efficiency later but FFS, we need these services back.

We've pissed about with letting corporations run our fantastic country for fifty odd years now while politicians pretend they're running the show. It's time to tell them to **** off. And try something different.

Ah, but Darling wasn't [i]really[/i] a Labour chancellor was he?

TJ lives in an alternate reality where the great socialist revolution has taken place in the Labour party, Ed balls has been strung from a lamppost and Miliband has been appointed [i]Mr Leader[/i], has borrowed fifteen trillion dollars at zero percent interest from the IMF, and used it to build a hospital with full A&E facilities at the end of every street.

uponthedowns -

I think you will find the major philosophical / tactical differences would have made a significant difference.

Cameron and Osbourne - showing their inexperience talked down the UK economy and talked up the cuts which has a huge knock on effect in consumer confidence.

Also that spending plan from Darling was only because the labour party in their cowardice allowed themselves to be pushed into a position of saying they would cut significantly as well under presure from the tory press. Its not what they had been doing and doing successfully in keeping the UK out of recession.

You have to look at the comparison with other European countries to understand the difference the election made. The UK economy was running along under the stimulous okish and well in comparison to the rest of teh EU. The UK is now worse than a year ago other comparable countries are not.

When even the institute of directors are calling for more spending and saying that Osbourne has got it wrong then you know the game is up. History will not treat him kindly.

C'mon TJ - explain yourself - you claimed that the Eurozone was in growth, but according to the BBC:

The eurozone has narrowly avoided another recession with zero growth in the first three months of the year, according to figures from Eurostat.
Another quarter of economic contraction had been predicted after the eurozone shrank by 0.3% in the final quarter of 2011.

And according to the trade sites:

Eurozone Growth Monitor

James Waterson
Last updated: 4 July 2012
Latest official data for the Eurozone shows that no growth occurred in the first quarter of 2012.

The Eurostat Consumer Confidence surveys continue to register a significant lack of optimism regarding the current economic climate. The Eurostat Economic Sentiment Indicator is now in its 11th month of decline. In addition, the Eurostat Consumer Climate survey also remains in very pessimistic territory.

The IPSOS consumer surveys show that over 80% of European consumers lack significant confidence in the future, whereas only 20% believe their respective economies are currently ‘strong’. The exception is the German consumer who remains positive about the present but pessimistic about the future situation. The latest Retail Sales data shows a 1% year on year drop. New car registration also stopped growing year on year in the 3rd quarter of 2011 and continue to fall in 2012. Mortgage lending has also declined in all 4 countries monitored.

The World Economics view is that these data continue to suggest the Eurozone looks likely to experience, at best, no growth in Q2 2012.

our police stations are being readied as the next fertile orchard ready for the capitalist scrumpers.

Excellent. Well done DD, +1 on that.

Zulu

You even quoted me

[b]most of [/b]the eurozone continues to grow

TJ before you argue could ask the Union leaders to cut their wages say to £45K per year? Are they trying to compete with Dear Leaders? 🙄

OK, break it down - your claim is [b]most[/b] of the eurozone

which countries are up, which countries are down?

Germany is up 0.5%

France is flat, Spain, Netherlands & Portugal, Greece and Italy are down

So come on, [b]most[/b] of the Eurozone is growing?

Back your claim up, or withdraw it!

as it does - and even by the numbers you give we are doing much worse than the eu average let alone the eu without greece

Dont feed the troll. This was done sensibly and politely yesterday.

I think Bracissimo pretty much nailed it!

G4S at the Olympics has inadvertently summed up the culture of take-it-as-read privatisation in this country.

As long as you make the right political donations, then you can get away with charging absurd fees for the lowest common denominator of service. Then you trouser the millions in bonuses. Result! It's now Clear that even that piss poor level of 'deliverables' is frankly too much trouble. So why bother? We'll get paid anyway.

I know! Let's hand over the NHS and the education system over to the same people, while dressing it up as 'necessary austerity'.

They're selling us all down the ****ing river, so that when they're voted out, they can pop up on the boards of the companies with these new privatised contracts. A million dabs a year for one day a month as a non exec director? Don't mind if I do!

Is that why Labour have employed G4S for their autumn conference security then?

Zulu

You even quoted me

most of the eurozone continues to grow
as it does - and even by the numbers you give we are doing much worse than the eu average let alone the eu without greece

Is that why Labour have employed G4S for their autumn conference security then?

Oh bore the **** off.

Aha, A raw nerve hit there Darcy 😉

Good shot, Reload! 😈

we are in the middle of the biggest financial shitstorm in a century, no one has a clue how to fix it and the idea that another political party who's main differential point seem to be they wear different coloured ties could magic it away is frankly laughable.

+ 1

This is an interesting viewpoint

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondratiev_waves ]Kondratiev waves[/url]

Extraordinarily naive/dogmatic for anyone to believe any of our main political parties' respective stances would make anything more than a gnat's chuff difference to our GDP.

Both parties are just off-centre, barely any distance between them in terms of policies
Globalisation
Europe's getting old which will impact on growth (unless we increase immigration - should be interesting trying that!)
Eurozone is in a mess
We borrowed money we couldn't pay back. All of us. Government, companies, banks, consumers

Blaming a specific political party in the UK for a problem of global proportions is just silly. Like voting Labour in would make a blind bit of difference!

No Zulu, as ever, you miss completely. It's ok though, you and TeeJ masturbate yourselves into the usual froth of detail, graphs and bullshit point-scoring. It's what makes most of the rest of STW switch off these threads. You ought to be proud of yourselves. No. Really. You should.

Ah, sorry - we should accept the word of the Tandem as it is spake, for he is of the left, and therefore the word is good 🙄

DD - have you not noticed I usually do not reply to Zulu?

Blaming a specific political party in the UK for a problem of global proportions is just silly. Like voting Labour in would make a blind bit of difference!

Indeed - however specific policies can ameliorate or worsen problems with global origins.

have you not noticed I usually do not reply to Zulu?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahaha

So, I managed to draw you out of cover to the point whereby you just [b]couldn't[/b] resist it, by pointing out that you were talking bollocks...

Win!

Same goes to TeeJ of course. The both of you (with the help of others) wreck these threads with your bickering. And most of it is of the nature of a university debating chamber (and not in a good way). Any kind of philosophical questions are lost in the fog of the two of you.

There's little difference between the two parties. The only one is that 'labour' are at least still slightly embarrassed by the fact they're purely serving the interests of their multinational donors, so hedge it with some token social gestures.

The tory's? Same old, same old. They truly don't give a ****! You can all starve in the gutter as long as they're ok

its true I doubt that labour would be any better at fixing the economy in the short term

and even tho nulab were pretty damn right wing in many ways the torys really are damaging the countrys long term prospects. the coaltions continual attacks on NHS, universities, science funding,forensics, even the police will **** the country good and proper - g4s were a shoe in for taking over the police b4 their Olympic glory- probably still are
goves based his education plan around the private sector, yet forced to admit that competition between exam boards has led to decreasing standards, corruption etc yet its still a good thing for schools ?

the costs of these policies won't be fully realised till the current cabinet are retired to the HOL counting their (tax evaded) $s from their non exec directorships with various private healthcare, police,education corporatipns they sold their asses to way back when at 250k a head dinners above number 10

G4S at the Olympics has inadvertently summed up the culture of take-it-as-read privatisation in this country.

As long as you make the right political donations, then you can get away with charging absurd fees for the lowest common denominator of service. Then you trouser the millions in bonuses. Result! It's now Clear that even that piss poor level of 'deliverables' is frankly too much trouble. So why bother? We'll get paid anyway.

I know! Let's hand over the NHS and the education system over to the same people, while dressing it up as 'necessary austerity'.

They're selling us all down the ****ing river, so that when they're voted out, they can pop up on the boards of the companies with these new privatised contracts. A million dabs a year for one day a month as a non exec director? Don't mind if I do!

Couldn't have put it better myself +1

Also that spending plan from Darling was only because the labour party in their cowardice allowed themselves to be pushed into a position of saying they would cut significantly as well under presure from the tory press. Its not what they had been doing and doing successfully in keeping the UK out of recession.

Only they couldn't keep doing it could they. Remember the note left by Liam Byre Labour Chief Secretary to the Treasury "I'm afraid there is no money" And if Labour had been re-elected and tried borrowing more to implement the TJ policy of spend spend spend the interest rates would have been at Spanish and Greek levels which would have eventually fed through to the bank base rate leading to an increase in mortgage interest rates further choking demand. But you know all this already and choose to ignore it.

Well, seeing as I have it on the clipboard anyway....

[img] [/img]

FFS.

nobody likes a tory

FACT

Have to say i agree with the other comments in that whatever party was in control we would still be in the same situation as the country is in a dire financial state. Retail sales for non essential goods have plunged over the last 4 years and people are spending less, this year is the worst to date.

One of the factors is the over indulgence of too many people borrowing far too much with our banks blessing all those years back. Now the banks are sometimes too strict and theres a shortage of money. They need to find a happy medium here as most of the UK public have to borrow money and live a life on credit in some way.

It is so amusing to see the " nothing an be done" from so many people. Of course something can be done - and is being done by many countries and is being urged to be done by huge sectors of our society and establishment - when the institute of directors and the TUC agree on a position then there must be something in it.

Under labour we were weathering the storm, under the tories we are sinking.

The austerity measures have lead to a worsening of the position not improvement as tax receipts fall and benefits bill rise - meaning despite the savage cuts in services no reduction is made in the deficit.

As for - " you cannot spend your way out of a recession" - the lesson from previous recessions is that you can - and indeed carefully targeted spending is the best way to do so. This is why in the UK its getting worse while in most of the rest of comparable countries it is getting better

Get that other bloke in to fix it all, you know, errr, mmmmmm, ah yes - [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/mr-leader-did-mitt-romney-forget-ed-milibands-name-7978925.html ]Mr Leader[/url]

I'm watching the Oylimpics, there's an excellent example of the govt spend our taxes on an advert for the UK....
...Hang on, that was criticised too, wasn't it?
Why are the few poor examples lauded as being representative of captalism when there are so many hard working people who are doing their bit. I feel the examples used are so unrepresentative of the masses as to be insignificant. Why mot get behind the millions of home grown tory voting small businesses in place of constantly whinging about the high profile few. After all, we can all bring out high profile public sector corruption like Student Loans.
The reason we're not getting out of the recession is because of the negativity spouted by the vocal few. If half the energy of the whinging was put into doing something positive, we wouldn't be in this position.
Forget the politicians, get off your arse, shut up, and do something youself.

I agree with darcy and the others on this thread sharing his view.

TJ a word of advice, get yourself into local politics and pour all this energy into something positive instead of pontificating on a forum read by 20 people, but don't go for the Greens as you wouldn't make a credible candidate.
EDIT: Efficiency in the public sector would go some way in improving thing, but as you say TJ, there is no room for [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19001271 ]improvement in the NHS[/url]. 😕

I doubt the economy would be much better but they might not be flogging off all our remaining public services to their mates with quite the same level of glee.

Also, yes Labour failed to properly rein in the financial services industry, but they aren't quite as up to their necks in it as the Tories, so some kind of regulation/taxation might have been a vague possibility.

don simon, you ask for people not to make lazy generalisations about the greed and poor practice of the private sector, yet you constantly do the same re the public sector.

Forget the politicians, get off your arse, shut up, and do something youself.

Or in other words...

[img] [/img]

I have always been a labour voter – largely on the basis Tory’s are ****ts who are in it for a small but powerful minority. The Labour party are equally serving a powerful minority being the unions but I view this in a slightly better light.

However as an educated armchair economist I would totally agree that whoever was/is in charge would be in the same mess. The problems we face have been to big for politicians to admit to and both plans pre general election were essentially the same and essentially flawed. Labour planned for austerity just with a bit of a delay. Both assumed growth would return relatively quickly where I see no reason why it should.

The underlying problem is the majority of western countries spend more cash than they generate, once the tap runs dry the party is over. Yet we are still (even Greece / Spain etc) spending more than we generate, still partying!

Or in other words...

I'm not at all convinced that a slightly reducing GDP is a bad thing. Here are some of the things which contribute to GDP:

Crime
War
Pollution
Congestion
Ill health
Litter
Unreliable products
Inefficient products
Landfill
Driving compared with cycling
Nuclear power stations

So if people give up smoking and get healthier then if all else is equal GDP falls. Likewise less crime equals lower GDP.

On the other hand, employment is down, inflation is down and interest rates are low. I think that's more important.

The trouble is, as pointed out, the Tories are slaves to a totally discredited ideology. Unfettered unregulated capitalism got us into this mess. The solution, more capitalism, less regulation, and even less accountability. Yeah... that'll work. They're totally blinkered mindset just can't conceive of any other option

Everything they're doing is nonsensical, and totally self-defeating. They carry on the Thatcherite mantra that mass unemployment is 'a price worth paying'?

So, the stated aim of reducing the deficit is clearly cobblers. How can you do that with massive increases in benefits payments and hugely reduced tax revenues? You don't have to be an economist to see this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever

I said when George Osbourne was appointed chancellor that I wouldn't trust the braying, chinless hooray to run a ****ing bath, never mind the countries economy! So its no great surprise that we are where we are, is it?

I completely agree with Don Simon above - individual examples of failure in the public or private sector are always used to prove that the whole public / private sector are bad (depending on the political viewpoint held).

A couple of recent examples - we've heard a lot about G4S' olympic troubles but we haven't heard anything at all about the innovative work they've done in the prisons they manage to improve contact between prisoners and their families. Likewise, we heard a lot a year ago about how the proposed cuts to police headcount would lead to a crime wave but one year on we've learnt that the British Crime Survey shows a continued reduction in crime levels and some good work by the police to redeploy back office staff to the front line.

Likewise, we hear a lot about the "privatisation" of the NHS but we've heard nothing about the actual results of the most recent one, in which Hitchingbrook Hospital, now managed by Circle Healthcare, has managed to achieve the highest patient satisfaction ratings in its region by managing the same staff / resources more effectively than the previous NHS management team.

When I think of "privatisation" of the NHS, I look west, beyond Ireland, a few thousand miles, and I see America. One of the richest countries int he world (if not the richest?) with such poor healthcare unless you can afford private. And that teaches me that private corporations, left unfettered, will **** it up eventually for the less advantaged. Maybe not for a few years, but eventually, healthcare will become a privilege of the middle classes and above. That, in turn, teaches me that it's best not to let the greedy bastards get their hands on it in the first place. Better safe than sorry and all that.

Likewise, energy, communications, utilities, transport. Let's have it all back.

Chavez for prime-minister anyone? 🙂

DeadlyDarcy - why not look closer to home at Germany or Switzerland - both of which have largely "privatised" healthcare but spend the same as us and have much better healthcare systems? There isn't a single model of private sector involvement in Healthcare but there are plenty of examples of where Private providers have made substantial efforts to deliver care that is higher quality and lower cost than the "public" alternative - the private sector as a rule is much more innovative / agile in the way it delivers care.

Chavez for prime-minister anyone?

Even better! We want Bravissimo!!!!! 😀

[img] [/img]

Farmer John

Germany pays significantly more than us on healthcare - much of it on administration because of the complex funding. It is also not dominated by PLCs having a lot of co operative and charity run organisations.

there is not a single example I have ever seen where private healthcare is not more expensive with worse outcomes than public provision. Teh only savings possible in the vast majority of cases is on staff - reductions in salaries and training.

Private healthcare requires much regulation to ensure basic minimum standards are met.

is much more innovative / agile in the way it delivers care.

And in how it delivers profits to shareholders.

My argument is not one of private versus public per se, but more of a philosophical nature. I appreciate that the Germans have a better system than us, but then again, I hear my friend Ian, who is married to Katja and lives in Mannheim, constantly whinging about how much it costs. Also, it's compulsory to be part of an insurance scheme is it not, unless you can afford the very best, in which case you can opt out and go comletely private? So, once again, private corporation has to be heavily regulated in order not to **** things up.

Switzerland, on the other hand, I have no idea of. I know I don't want to live there though.

Anyway, we risk derailing TeeJ's thread into a discussion about healthcare alone. And I have to go out now and lay wooden floors. 🙂 (Or in other words, be a dirty little capitalist bastard)

There isn't a single model of private sector involvement in Healthcare but there are plenty of examples of where Private providers have made substantial efforts to deliver care that is higher quality and lower cost than the "public" alternative - the private sector as a rule is much more innovative / agile in the way it delivers care.

Except that's wrong isn't it? Did we not have a report a few years ago from Cameron's "health guru", that showed the NHS was one of the most efficient in the world in terms of care delivered vs budget, as a public sector organisation. Private healthcare systems are less efficient not more efficient.

Anyway, we risk derailing TeeJ's thread into a discussion about healthcare alone. And I have to go out now and lay wooden floors

On healthcare, remember that the government won't even publish its own report on the likely outcomes of its NHS reform. Now why would that be? I thought, as Andew Landsley is delivering the holy grail, he'd be shouting it from the rooftops

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/mar/09/nhs-reforms-appeal-risk-register ]Not even slightly dubious, eh?[/url]

Germany spends a little more (11.6%) than us (10+%) in GDP terms but that is for the full costs of healthcare including all future liabilities for pensions / staff costs.

This is in contrast to the NHS where the pension fund is unfunded, unaffordable, and adds around 3 to 4% to the "real" 11% GDP figure - making our healthcare considerably more expensive (and worse in outcomes / quality) than Germany.

What's actually more interesting is to look at WHY German Healthcare is so good. It's fair to say that they embedded the principles of quality and continuous improvement years before we did - they are also spending 5 Billion euros in the next 3 years (across 6 research centres) to research and systematically implement improvements in healthcare. Now compare this to the UK where the news today tells us that even in the same hospital different approaches to recording vital signs exist and most hospitals have still failed to adopt the WHO surgical checklist, despite the 25,000 or so avoidable deaths in the NHS each year.

I'm sure TJ will disagree with all of the above but for me the simple test is that of people who have experienced care in the UK and Germany, few would choose to receive care in the UK given the choice.

No doubt Germany is better in some / most ways- its also significantly more expensive. No doubt about this at all.

Yes, but they do get about a third more doctors, fifteen percent more nurses, twice as many hospital beds, twice as many MRI and CT scanners (all per head of population) so despite spending about 20% more per head, they certianly seem to do a lot more with it than we do, don't they TJ?

I was always under the impression that the main purpose of the NHS was to employ people who wanted to work as administrators in a huge unaccountable bureaucracy, the medical staff are there to justify this bureaucracy.

Tell you what I don't like about the NHS that we just witnessed - both our girls in hospital for two nights and the total sum of the evening 'meal' was:

Chips
Jacket potatoes
Baked beans
Cheesy Beany Mash (potatos and, err, beans. With a bit of cheese)
Semolina for dessert
Cordial juice or water to drink

And that is ALL the children in the ward get to choose from EVERY SINGLE night, 365 days a year!!! I checked on the Trust website and they shout about the importance of healthy balanced meals and choice for children - fresh fruit juices, fruit, vegetables, homemade pizza etc. I contacted the hospital and they had no idea that what was *actually* being served.

Rant over. Well, here it is but I am in the middle of a complaint to the Trust and have been invited in to discuss with Board members. 👿

don simon - Member
TJ a word of advice, get yourself into local politics and pour all this energy into something positive.....

Ahhh, there's the rub - then he'd actually have to say what he stood for and how he would achieve it rather than snipe at others.

how he would achieve it rather than snipe at others

Tell you what I don't like about the NHS that we just witnessed

Surely that's your particular hospital or trust or whatever it is?

You know they're run separately nowadays don't you?

And I hope you are not overlooking the fact that you didn't get a bill for it.

mastiles_fanylion - Member

Isn't that mostly all they all do anyway?

Possibly, my only interest in politics is comedic value, don't read or listen to what they say 😆

No doubt Germany is better in some / most ways- its also significantly more expensive. No doubt about this at all.

Oh and we had poor experiences of German healthcare.

Enough shit talk!

The essence of capitalism is that you do as little as possible because you will be paid as little as possible.

This means limited output from individuals and as a result companies and this also means stunted economic growth.

Then you have the fact that the global economic system only works if there is trust in it and if the media says that it works and the media have decided to say this it isn't working, so it doesn't.

Saying that not long ago the media were promoting cigarettes and making a fortune, they only stopped because of a change in the law. One might argue that it is impossible for so many trained investigators to have not researched the detrimental effects of smoking and stopped for moral rather than legal reasons. The media feed you a false and twisted version of reality and you embrace that delusion at your own peril.

Wiki leaks has shown us how much control and power the banks and their minions have over us, by the resistance they have met whilst championing the truth, however most people are too brain washed to give a shit about freedom.

There is a very old saying that is as relevant today as it always was, you reap what you sow!

As for me I'm not a capitalist, I give far more back than I take from life and my culture and you lot and the rest of capitalism can **** OFF!