Also that spending plan from Darling was only because the labour party in their cowardice allowed themselves to be pushed into a position of saying they would cut significantly as well under presure from the tory press. Its not what they had been doing and doing successfully in keeping the UK out of recession.
Only they couldn't keep doing it could they. Remember the note left by Liam Byre Labour Chief Secretary to the Treasury "I'm afraid there is no money" And if Labour had been re-elected and tried borrowing more to implement the TJ policy of spend spend spend the interest rates would have been at Spanish and Greek levels which would have eventually fed through to the bank base rate leading to an increase in mortgage interest rates further choking demand. But you know all this already and choose to ignore it.
Well, seeing as I have it on the clipboard anyway....
[img] 
[/img]
FFS.
nobody likes a tory
FACT
Have to say i agree with the other comments in that whatever party was in control we would still be in the same situation as the country is in a dire financial state. Retail sales for non essential goods have plunged over the last 4 years and people are spending less, this year is the worst to date.
One of the factors is the over indulgence of too many people borrowing far too much with our banks blessing all those years back. Now the banks are sometimes too strict and theres a shortage of money. They need to find a happy medium here as most of the UK public have to borrow money and live a life on credit in some way.
It is so amusing to see the " nothing an be done" from so many people. Of course something can be done - and is being done by many countries and is being urged to be done by huge sectors of our society and establishment - when the institute of directors and the TUC agree on a position then there must be something in it.
Under labour we were weathering the storm, under the tories we are sinking.
The austerity measures have lead to a worsening of the position not improvement as tax receipts fall and benefits bill rise - meaning despite the savage cuts in services no reduction is made in the deficit.
As for - " you cannot spend your way out of a recession" - the lesson from previous recessions is that you can - and indeed carefully targeted spending is the best way to do so. This is why in the UK its getting worse while in most of the rest of comparable countries it is getting better
Get that other bloke in to fix it all, you know, errr, mmmmmm, ah yes - [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/mr-leader-did-mitt-romney-forget-ed-milibands-name-7978925.html ]Mr Leader[/url]
I'm watching the Oylimpics, there's an excellent example of the govt spend our taxes on an advert for the UK....
...Hang on, that was criticised too, wasn't it?
Why are the few poor examples lauded as being representative of captalism when there are so many hard working people who are doing their bit. I feel the examples used are so unrepresentative of the masses as to be insignificant. Why mot get behind the millions of home grown tory voting small businesses in place of constantly whinging about the high profile few. After all, we can all bring out high profile public sector corruption like Student Loans.
The reason we're not getting out of the recession is because of the negativity spouted by the vocal few. If half the energy of the whinging was put into doing something positive, we wouldn't be in this position.
Forget the politicians, get off your arse, shut up, and do something youself.
I agree with darcy and the others on this thread sharing his view.
TJ a word of advice, get yourself into local politics and pour all this energy into something positive instead of pontificating on a forum read by 20 people, but don't go for the Greens as you wouldn't make a credible candidate.
EDIT: Efficiency in the public sector would go some way in improving thing, but as you say TJ, there is no room for [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19001271 ]improvement in the NHS[/url]. 😕
I doubt the economy would be much better but they might not be flogging off all our remaining public services to their mates with quite the same level of glee.
Also, yes Labour failed to properly rein in the financial services industry, but they aren't quite as up to their necks in it as the Tories, so some kind of regulation/taxation might have been a vague possibility.
don simon, you ask for people not to make lazy generalisations about the greed and poor practice of the private sector, yet you constantly do the same re the public sector.
Forget the politicians, get off your arse, shut up, and do something youself.
Or in other words...
[img] 
[/img]
I have always been a labour voter – largely on the basis Tory’s are ****ts who are in it for a small but powerful minority. The Labour party are equally serving a powerful minority being the unions but I view this in a slightly better light.
However as an educated armchair economist I would totally agree that whoever was/is in charge would be in the same mess. The problems we face have been to big for politicians to admit to and both plans pre general election were essentially the same and essentially flawed. Labour planned for austerity just with a bit of a delay. Both assumed growth would return relatively quickly where I see no reason why it should.
The underlying problem is the majority of western countries spend more cash than they generate, once the tap runs dry the party is over. Yet we are still (even Greece / Spain etc) spending more than we generate, still partying!
Or in other words...
If that's how you see it, then yes. But it has to be better than waiting for someone else to do something and then complaining when it doesn't suit your own personal needs.
EDIT: Which I guess as a self-employed non native of Brizzle is what you've done. 😛
I'm not at all convinced that a slightly reducing GDP is a bad thing. Here are some of the things which contribute to GDP:
Crime
War
Pollution
Congestion
Ill health
Litter
Unreliable products
Inefficient products
Landfill
Driving compared with cycling
Nuclear power stations
So if people give up smoking and get healthier then if all else is equal GDP falls. Likewise less crime equals lower GDP.
On the other hand, employment is down, inflation is down and interest rates are low. I think that's more important.
The trouble is, as pointed out, the Tories are slaves to a totally discredited ideology. Unfettered unregulated capitalism got us into this mess. The solution, more capitalism, less regulation, and even less accountability. Yeah... that'll work. They're totally blinkered mindset just can't conceive of any other option
Everything they're doing is nonsensical, and totally self-defeating. They carry on the Thatcherite mantra that mass unemployment is 'a price worth paying'?
So, the stated aim of reducing the deficit is clearly cobblers. How can you do that with massive increases in benefits payments and hugely reduced tax revenues? You don't have to be an economist to see this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever
I said when George Osbourne was appointed chancellor that I wouldn't trust the braying, chinless hooray to run a ****ing bath, never mind the countries economy! So its no great surprise that we are where we are, is it?
I completely agree with Don Simon above - individual examples of failure in the public or private sector are always used to prove that the whole public / private sector are bad (depending on the political viewpoint held).
A couple of recent examples - we've heard a lot about G4S' olympic troubles but we haven't heard anything at all about the innovative work they've done in the prisons they manage to improve contact between prisoners and their families. Likewise, we heard a lot a year ago about how the proposed cuts to police headcount would lead to a crime wave but one year on we've learnt that the British Crime Survey shows a continued reduction in crime levels and some good work by the police to redeploy back office staff to the front line.
Likewise, we hear a lot about the "privatisation" of the NHS but we've heard nothing about the actual results of the most recent one, in which Hitchingbrook Hospital, now managed by Circle Healthcare, has managed to achieve the highest patient satisfaction ratings in its region by managing the same staff / resources more effectively than the previous NHS management team.
When I think of "privatisation" of the NHS, I look west, beyond Ireland, a few thousand miles, and I see America. One of the richest countries int he world (if not the richest?) with such poor healthcare unless you can afford private. And that teaches me that private corporations, left unfettered, will **** it up eventually for the less advantaged. Maybe not for a few years, but eventually, healthcare will become a privilege of the middle classes and above. That, in turn, teaches me that it's best not to let the greedy bastards get their hands on it in the first place. Better safe than sorry and all that.
Likewise, energy, communications, utilities, transport. Let's have it all back.
Chavez for prime-minister anyone? 🙂
DeadlyDarcy - why not look closer to home at Germany or Switzerland - both of which have largely "privatised" healthcare but spend the same as us and have much better healthcare systems? There isn't a single model of private sector involvement in Healthcare but there are plenty of examples of where Private providers have made substantial efforts to deliver care that is higher quality and lower cost than the "public" alternative - the private sector as a rule is much more innovative / agile in the way it delivers care.
Chavez for prime-minister anyone?
Even better! We want Bravissimo!!!!! 😀
[img] 
[/img]
Farmer John
Germany pays significantly more than us on healthcare - much of it on administration because of the complex funding. It is also not dominated by PLCs having a lot of co operative and charity run organisations.
there is not a single example I have ever seen where private healthcare is not more expensive with worse outcomes than public provision. Teh only savings possible in the vast majority of cases is on staff - reductions in salaries and training.
Private healthcare requires much regulation to ensure basic minimum standards are met.
is much more innovative / agile in the way it delivers care.
And in how it delivers profits to shareholders.
My argument is not one of private versus public per se, but more of a philosophical nature. I appreciate that the Germans have a better system than us, but then again, I hear my friend Ian, who is married to Katja and lives in Mannheim, constantly whinging about how much it costs. Also, it's compulsory to be part of an insurance scheme is it not, unless you can afford the very best, in which case you can opt out and go comletely private? So, once again, private corporation has to be heavily regulated in order not to **** things up.
Switzerland, on the other hand, I have no idea of. I know I don't want to live there though.
Anyway, we risk derailing TeeJ's thread into a discussion about healthcare alone. And I have to go out now and lay wooden floors. 🙂 (Or in other words, be a dirty little capitalist bastard)
There isn't a single model of private sector involvement in Healthcare but there are plenty of examples of where Private providers have made substantial efforts to deliver care that is higher quality and lower cost than the "public" alternative - the private sector as a rule is much more innovative / agile in the way it delivers care.
Except that's wrong isn't it? Did we not have a report a few years ago from Cameron's "health guru", that showed the NHS was one of the most efficient in the world in terms of care delivered vs budget, as a public sector organisation. Private healthcare systems are less efficient not more efficient.
Anyway, we risk derailing TeeJ's thread into a discussion about healthcare alone. And I have to go out now and lay wooden floors
Got to keep the stakeholders happy. 😛
On healthcare, remember that the government won't even publish its own report on the likely outcomes of its NHS reform. Now why would that be? I thought, as Andew Landsley is delivering the holy grail, he'd be shouting it from the rooftops
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/mar/09/nhs-reforms-appeal-risk-register ]Not even slightly dubious, eh?[/url]
Germany spends a little more (11.6%) than us (10+%) in GDP terms but that is for the full costs of healthcare including all future liabilities for pensions / staff costs.
This is in contrast to the NHS where the pension fund is unfunded, unaffordable, and adds around 3 to 4% to the "real" 11% GDP figure - making our healthcare considerably more expensive (and worse in outcomes / quality) than Germany.
What's actually more interesting is to look at WHY German Healthcare is so good. It's fair to say that they embedded the principles of quality and continuous improvement years before we did - they are also spending 5 Billion euros in the next 3 years (across 6 research centres) to research and systematically implement improvements in healthcare. Now compare this to the UK where the news today tells us that even in the same hospital different approaches to recording vital signs exist and most hospitals have still failed to adopt the WHO surgical checklist, despite the 25,000 or so avoidable deaths in the NHS each year.
I'm sure TJ will disagree with all of the above but for me the simple test is that of people who have experienced care in the UK and Germany, few would choose to receive care in the UK given the choice.
No doubt Germany is better in some / most ways- its also significantly more expensive. No doubt about this at all.
Yes, but they do get about a third more doctors, fifteen percent more nurses, twice as many hospital beds, twice as many MRI and CT scanners (all per head of population) so despite spending about 20% more per head, they certianly seem to do a lot more with it than we do, don't they TJ?
I was always under the impression that the main purpose of the NHS was to employ people who wanted to work as administrators in a huge unaccountable bureaucracy, the medical staff are there to justify this bureaucracy.
Tell you what I don't like about the NHS that we just witnessed - both our girls in hospital for two nights and the total sum of the evening 'meal' was:
Chips
Jacket potatoes
Baked beans
Cheesy Beany Mash (potatos and, err, beans. With a bit of cheese)
Semolina for dessert
Cordial juice or water to drink
And that is ALL the children in the ward get to choose from EVERY SINGLE night, 365 days a year!!! I checked on the Trust website and they shout about the importance of healthy balanced meals and choice for children - fresh fruit juices, fruit, vegetables, homemade pizza etc. I contacted the hospital and they had no idea that what was *actually* being served.
Rant over. Well, here it is but I am in the middle of a complaint to the Trust and have been invited in to discuss with Board members. 👿
don simon - Member
TJ a word of advice, get yourself into local politics and pour all this energy into something positive.....
Ahhh, there's the rub - then he'd actually have to say what he stood for and how he would achieve it rather than snipe at others.
how he would achieve it rather than snipe at others
Isn't that mostly all they all do anyway?
Tell you what I don't like about the NHS that we just witnessed
Surely that's your particular hospital or trust or whatever it is?
You know they're run separately nowadays don't you?
And I hope you are not overlooking the fact that you didn't get a bill for it.
mastiles_fanylion - MemberIsn't that mostly all they all do anyway?
Possibly, my only interest in politics is comedic value, don't read or listen to what they say 😆
No doubt Germany is better in some / most ways- its also significantly more expensive. No doubt about this at all.
Oh and we had poor experiences of German healthcare.
Enough shit talk!
The essence of capitalism is that you do as little as possible because you will be paid as little as possible.
This means limited output from individuals and as a result companies and this also means stunted economic growth.
Then you have the fact that the global economic system only works if there is trust in it and if the media says that it works and the media have decided to say this it isn't working, so it doesn't.
Saying that not long ago the media were promoting cigarettes and making a fortune, they only stopped because of a change in the law. One might argue that it is impossible for so many trained investigators to have not researched the detrimental effects of smoking and stopped for moral rather than legal reasons. The media feed you a false and twisted version of reality and you embrace that delusion at your own peril.
Wiki leaks has shown us how much control and power the banks and their minions have over us, by the resistance they have met whilst championing the truth, however most people are too brain washed to give a shit about freedom.
There is a very old saying that is as relevant today as it always was, you reap what you sow!
As for me I'm not a capitalist, I give far more back than I take from life and my culture and you lot and the rest of capitalism can **** OFF!
The essence of capitalism is that you do as little as possible because you will be paid as little as possible.
Er no, it's the opposite in fact. There are lots of people in that situation, but that's a side-effect not the actual aim.
As for me I'm not a capitalist
Your lifestyle however has been made possible by capitalists.
Enough shit talk!
You started so well then defecated all over your own post.
Hahahaha!
No molgrips my life style was made possible by Nicolai Tesla and he was most assuredly not a capitalist.
Capitalists always try and make out that they have driven our society forwards rather than held it back. The current situation is a perfect example of why capitalism doesn't work.
Tesla could have advanced our race technologically by thousands of years with sufficient support, instead that **** up Edison and all the other retarded capitalists of the day simply opposed him, to the extent of burning down one of his labs.
You genius's stay here and argue over the details of why the biggest bunch of **** ups the world has ever known have ended up in a **** ed up situation, I have an escape from the DOOMED capitalists plan to work on and intend to help as many decent people as I can along the way, so long suckers!
As for me I'm not a capitalist
Dont you run your own business whereby you sell goods for more than you pay for them?
You are the very definition of a capitalist.
Your lifestyle however has been made possible by capitalists.
Mixed economy therefore educated by the state, kept healthy by the state.
Its too simplistic a statement, we all owe our existence to both the state and to capitalism ...we could debate which contributed the most but it would be pointless
Surely that's your particular hospital or trust or whatever it is?
Yes I know... [i]I checked on the [b]Trust[/b] website... I am in the middle of a complaint to the [b]Trust[/b][/i]
You know they're run separately nowadays don't you?
See above
And I hope you are not overlooking the fact that you didn't get a bill for it.
Not the point.
*ignores JY*
*feels guilty*
Are you the reincarnation of Chairman Mao? You seem very angry? Have you got access to nuclear weapons?
MF - and it has been explaied to you a part of the reason why it is like this - and also I bet it is a contracted out meal service ( is it?)
sententious ...happy now DD?
Have I missed a joke at my expense somewhere on the interwebz?
M-F as a a vegan i failed to get 5 fruit and veg a day in hospital and ended up on a diet of am on toast and chips.
They did next to F all when i complained...good luck.
When my eldest was in we had to bring him in meals
What do you do for a living kaesae? sound pretty impressive to me! seriously!
