An NSA official told the New York Observer it was holding back some of the "good stuff" from the White House
Of course they are - they have to, Trump threatened to reveal the truth about the moon landings, Roswell and 9/11.
kimbers - Member
To be fair after hanging out with her pervy dad, Steve Bannon and her chinless wonder of a husband, Justin must look pretty tasty...
You lot are going after Steve Bannon now? 😀
So all those dramas about President Trump have no effects so you lot go after his advisors?
I wonder how will it work when the eyes are turn on the oppositions/opponents' advisors. See if opponents' advisors can stand the heat ... should be fun. 😛
You lot are going after Steve Bannon now?
So all those dramas about President Trump have no effects so you lot go after his advisors?
It's almost like they are somehow linked.
Serious talk now. Is there anyone lucid and logical who can argue the side of Trump et al? Talking with the current proponents in this thread is like arguing with a toddler. I don't for a minute think all Trump supporters are slack jawed yokels, so please can someone step forward?
You lot are going after Steve Bannon now?
So all those dramas about President Trump have no effects so you lot go after his advisors?
🙂
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So all those dramas about President Trump have no effects so you lot go after his advisors?
Cmon, 4 weeks and he's already had senior advisor quit, has any president been so close to impeachment so soon?
Trump said he didn't know Flynn had discussed sanctions, now spicy says he knew weeks ago....
Miller his new mouthpiece was special this weekend too
Chewkw another Goldman Sachs to be appointed next week to secretary of state, swamp draining is not good speciality
Of course they are - they have to, Trump threatened to reveal the truth about the moon landings, Roswell and 9/11.
Is this a joke?
Trump? A joke? I wish it was. 🙁
It's as if there's no way to spin this as anything but an absolute clusterflip
You have to wonder what they are trying to divert attention away from this time !
Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaa!
What a ****ing shambles.
When are the swivel-eyed neo-fascist loons going to realise that the swivel-eyed neo-fascist loons they choose to represent them are unfit for office? Unfit to run a small business, in fact (at least one that doesn't rely on government collusion to succeed). Obviously they won't, but enough grown ups will, and then we'll get back to something resembling the real world.
I can sense the cracks spreading already and it makes me chuckle a bit inside. All over by the end of this year with any luck. The nutters can have their 18 months making tits of themselves in the limelight and they will have achieved nothing.
#wellearnedmarginalisation
Well if it happens I assume the Democrats will ask for pence to step down before any impeachment votes. Gross incompetence within a month, casual disregard for national security, the worry would be the centralised role of bannon and the son in law now.
I see the Trump haters are still living in "impeachment fantasy land"
So far he's had all his appointees accepted by Senate even if the Educatuon Secretary took a tie break, but he won.
The travel ban / extreme vetting will be enforced one way or another.
Netanyahu is there today btw. Expect strong action in support of Israel
Clock's ticking, boys.
You had your tantrum. The adults let you think you'd got your way. Now the adults are going to take your toys off of you. At least when you've had enough rope to really hang yourselves.
Better start that war quick.......
Why not jamby, how is he going to get his travel ban in? His 90 days he needed to work stuff out will be up soon, is he not working stuff out? The court case will be another humiliation for him.
Overwhelming support of Israeli policy might be popular with some but not the rest of the world these days.
On impeachment added to the list blatant disregard for security the dinner stunt will haunt him for a long time, whos phones were pointed at the docs in the table? Which waiters heard what?
So what did he know about the illegal approach to the Russian ambassador? He knew nothing? Incompetence. He tapped his nose and knew nothing caught out.
Strong rumours of Russian influence will not leave him.
Anyway after a short absence what's your take on the last few days? I see he has no real choice but to either discipline /sack Conway or ignore the rest of the government on ethics.
Educatuon Secretary
8)
Bless em, the far right just can't get the staff!
Find someone who genuinely represents your views and inevitably they turn out to be incompetent, chaotic and utterly unfit for office.
The best kind of self-fulfilling prophesy.
jambalaya - Member
I see the Trump haters are still living in "impeachment fantasy land"So far he's had all his appointees accepted by Senate even if the Educatuon Secretary took a tie break, but he won.
The travel ban / extreme vetting will be enforced one way or another.
Netanyahu is there today btw. Expect strong action in support of Israel
You really are this forum's equivalent of
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[/img]
They (far right) got the president they deserve.
where are the executive orders to make America great again ?
create jobs ?
nothing ...
There's a way to go yet, but the humiliation will be all the greater for it. Give them enough rope.
Al Manny ?@almannysbunnet Feb 12
More
From the Auld Scots Dictionary
1.Eng>Scrotum;
2.Scottish> Bawbag;
3.Latin>Scrotus
e.g. #PresidentBawbag > Latin; Potus Scrotus
😆
The republican party are still getting what they wanted in terms of policy rollbacks and dismantling Obama's legacy.
It'll take the erosion of their (begrudging) support to spell the beginning of the end for Wotsit Hitler.
Then you'll see what a complete @$%t Ted Cruz is.
The republican party are still getting what they wanted in terms of policy rollbacks and dismantling Obama's legacy.
It'll take the erosion of their (begrudging) support to spell the beginning of the end for Wotsit Hitler.
Then you'll see what a complete @$%t Ted Cruz is.
Yep. I'd love to see Trump and Pence in the stocks, though.
jambalaya - Member
I see the Trump haters are still living in "impeachment fantasy land"
Hasn't he just lost his national security advisor? He better not lose any more.
To lose one advisor is unfortunate, but to lose two sounds like incompetence....
The republican party are still getting what they wanted in terms of policy rollbacks and dismantling Obama's legacy.
Only in headlines they are currently having trouble coming up with an actual policy on what to do next. Given the broad church of right wing nutters will be interesting to see what comes to pass.
tbh I do agree with jamba, people are getting too excited about impeachment.
Gonny need some proof which seems to be lying under a mountain of wishful thinking.
At the federal level, Article II of the United States Constitution states in Section 4 that "The President, Vice President, and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors."
It's also very touching that jambalaya thinks the average Trump voter gives a shit what deal the US does with Netanyahu. OK, so a bit of Palestinian-bashing is nominally popular, but both Israel and Palestine are 'abroad' and quite far removed from what they were voting for. A few Palestinians being run over by tanks isn't going to make Cletus and his mates happy for very long.
A few Palestinians being run over by tanks isn't going to make Cletus and his mates happy for very long.
...whereas sorting out Obamacare probably *would* make them happy. But despite having had 6 years to work out what to replace it with, they seem to have nothing.
Other than it's going to be so much better, so very much better, bigly.
Emoluments, he currently receives a chunk of cash from foreign leaders and governments via his hotels.
Influences or cash from Russia would be bribary or treason
That is before we go further into the business
Which his sons now run. (If the paper work is to be believed from the sign off at the start of his presidency).mikewsmith - Member
Emoluments, he currently receives a chunk of cash from foreign leaders and governments via his hotels.
Influences or cash from Russia would be bribary or treason
That is before we go further into the business
If you are going to prove that, you need to prove he is still running the companies. So far, I don't see anyone claiming he legally does? Happy to be corrected.
Jambalaya when and how do you say Obama banned immigration from Iraq ? The only law or step I can trace is his suspension of the visa waiver programme which obviously is different and had defined exceptions to allow some iraquis to still get visa waiver , and his 6 month monitorium on new visas. At no point in Obama's presidency did immigration from Iraq stop .
I'd love to weep over some facts if you have them.
POSTED 3 DAYS AGO #h
???? Glad you back jam can you answer the above please ?
Or (tin hat on)...Putin thinks it's more effective dismantling American democracy by outing Trump than just letting Trump do it by himself (with a bit of help).
World is getting to [url= http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-coldeject-idUSKBN15S064?il=0 ]all sorts of levels of crazy![/url] What would the US do if the North Koreans have got hold of an unarmed missle sub and are developing the missile for it!
Which his sons now run. (If the paper work is to be believed from the sign off at the start of his presidency).
AFAIK there is proof that he still receives a benifit from the company. At any lenght you could group the family together - of course I do everything indepandantly and there is no reason to be suspicious that my family is getting richer - spat with daughters retailers for instance.
If you are going to prove that, you need to prove he is still running the companies.
Actually you don't, it's not a court it's a vote. They can make their case and vote on it.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/will-the-new-plan-to-separate-trump-from-his-business-be-above-reproach/
Seosoamh77, photos showed that paperwork was blank and we've not seen anything since then to prove it. Smoke and mirrors then pointing and shouting as usual. Squirrel!
Loving the Trumpers claimimg this doesnt weaken Trump
it wont be this that brings him down but its more awkward questions
last week he knew nothing, now we learn he knew weeks before that Flynn had spoken to the ruskies about sanctions
poor kellyane doesnt have a hope, even Pence now caught in a lie about what he knew when
as for Netenyahu ....hes gonna hate that handshake dominance game
and is facing scandals and investigations a-plenty at home
I expect strong actions towards destabilising the region even further
You can watch Spicy stumble over the Flynn allegations today
mikewsmith - Member
Which his sons now run. (If the paper work is to be believed from the sign off at the start of his presidency).AFAIK there is proof that he still receives a benifit from the company. At any lenght you could group the family together - of course I do everything indepandantly and there is no reason to be suspicious that my family is getting richer - spat with daughters retailers for instance.
If you are going to prove that, you need to prove he is still running the companies.Actually you don't, it's not a court it's a vote. They can make their case and vote on it.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/will-the-new-plan-to-separate-trump-from-his-business-be-above-reproach/
Two-thirds of the senators must vote for conviction.
It's all a big maybe though, I'd go as far as to say an unlikely maybe, but we'll see how it develops.
akira - Member
Seosoamh77, photos showed that paperwork was blank and we've not seen anything since then to prove it. Smoke and mirrors then pointing and shouting as usual. Squirrel!
I'm pretty certain the documents on that table were just a mass of blank A4, but shirley they have to be logged somewhere. And people can look at them?
kimbers - Member
poor kellyane doesnt have a hope
I reckon she's the best hope for cracking and revealing all. Looked tonight like she was thinking oh for **** sake, this is even doing my nut in! 😆
seosamh77 - Member
I'm pretty certain the documents on that table were just a mass of blank A4, but shirley they have to be logged somewhere. And people can look at them?
Youre being naive if you think Trump has let go of his $$$
alternative facts rule!
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/02/donald-trump-conflicts-of-interests/508382/
[url= http://www.reuters.com/article/us-100days-coal-commentary-idUSKBN15O1SW ]Coal Jobs[/url]
It's all a big maybe though, I'd go as far as to say an unlikely maybe, but we'll see how it develops.
Yep 2/3, the historical parrallel is Nixon (again started as fantasy and the only thing that stopped it was resignation. They also got rid of the VP first in that case)
Lets face it he has no plan for healthcare, the jobs plan seems missing, he hasn't asked for the cash for the wall, exec orders in tatters and an assault on the Rep appointed judiciary. What happens when he goes after his own party that hard? Are they just going to roll with it?
Next stop questions about Security from the Patio operations room - again given how much he whipped up the Reps into yelling about Clinton's emails this one isn't sitting well (senior reps deleting tweets on the subject at the moment)
Next questions for Spicer - what was discussed in front of Journalists/punters
What was on the documents you were holding phones up to?
Were all of those phones government issues/secured?
he is not a director of his scottish companies anymore according to Company House .
like I say, happy to be corrected. 🙂 I'll have a read at that, ta.kimbers - Member
seosamh77 - Member
I'm pretty certain the documents on that table were just a mass of blank A4, but shirley they have to be logged somewhere. And people can look at them?
Youre being rather gullible if you think Trump has let go of his $$$
Trudeau is now running course for all world leaders in how to own Trump at handshakes 8)
kimbers
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/president-trump-conflict-of-interest_us_55f1eb0be4b002d5c078b44c
according to this, by law he isn't actually required to relinquish control. So being in control/financially benefiting actually wouldn't be grounds for impeachment. I'd guess that's vastly different if you can prove he's in control and the companies are commiting crimes.
Fair comment from that article though
"Constitutionally it's going to be very hard to prohibit anyone from becoming president by making them divest of their holdings," Painter said. "And if he wants to continue to run a business while being president, it would be like Berlusconi in Italy, which is probably the closest comparison."
What is in question is are the decisions he makes in the interest of his business (Family included), is he providing advice and information to his Family to enrich his/their wealth and ultimatly is he acting in the interests of the US or others.
All of which is much harder to prove when you have no interest, control or knowledge of what your cash is invested in.
mikewsmith - Member
It's all a big maybe though, I'd go as far as to say an unlikely maybe, but we'll see how it develops.Yep 2/3, the historical parrallel is Nixon (again started as fantasy and the only thing that stopped it was resignation. They also got rid of the VP first in that case)
Lets face it he has no plan for healthcare, the jobs plan seems missing, he hasn't asked for the cash for the wall, exec orders in tatters and an assault on the Rep appointed judiciary. What happens when he goes after his own party that hard? Are they just going to roll with it?
Next stop questions about Security from the Patio operations room - again given how much he whipped up the Reps into yelling about Clinton's emails this one isn't sitting well (senior reps deleting tweets on the subject at the moment)
Next questions for Spicer - what was discussed in front of Journalists/punters
What was on the documents you were holding phones up to?
Were all of those phones government issues/secured?
Problem is at the moment, it's just incompetence.(cynic in me says planned incompetence) And given politics these days, incompetence seems par for the course. So all I can see is a 4 year lame duck president(in regards to actually doing anything for people, he'll line corporate pockets with tax cuts and deregulation etc(as lets face it, that's the ultimate goal of his presidency(which will keep the part happy/placated imo))). unless someone can come up with some proof of wrong doing/russian control as grounds for impeachment.
He doesn't strike me as the type that will quietly step down of his own accord due to (perceived/advertised) incompetence.
Trump was elected [b]because[/b] he has money, the American voters believe that makes him and his appointees far less likely to be corrupt/corruptable than wanabees like the Clintons. The point with Hillary is everyone knew she would say whatever the biggest doner group wanted. She had no principals, she stood for nothing.
crazy fools! 😆jambalaya - Member
Trump was elected because he has money, the American voters believe that makes him and his appointees far less likely to be corrupt/corruptable than wanabees like the Clintons.
mikewsmith - Member
What is in question is are the decisions he makes in the interest of his business (Family included), is he providing advice and information to his Family to enrich his/their wealth and ultimatly is he acting in the interests of the US or others.
All of which is much harder to prove when you have no interest, control or knowledge of what your cash is invested in.
All about proof though, I also think there's another factor involved though, and that's irrational patriotism. Most americans will be extremely reluctant to go down the impeachment route. I'd guess the embarrassment of nixon is very much in the public mind there and it'd take alot to go down that route..
Rorschach - MemberTrudeau is now running course for all world leaders in how to own Trump at handshakes
There's some interesting Trump handshakes here :
Trump was elected because he has money, the American voters believe that makes him and his appointees far less likely to be corrupt/corruptable than wanabees like the Clintons.
Buy my daughters clothes
Stay at my hotels
Advertise my resort
Play golf on my courses
How much did the Russians pay Flynn for his trips to Russia (that he forgot to decalre) he has already had one nominated person walk away as they felt it was impossible to separate their business life from the next role in government.
I would say the people who belived his BS are realising it was just that.
She had no principals, she stood for nothing.
It's good that we know the Trump single easy to understand principle.
[img]
[/img]Anyway time for Story time with Spicer - How long did the president know Flynn was flagged as a security risk? If he didn't know who didn't inform the president his national security advisor was a security risk.
All about proof though,
Thing is it isn't. All he really needs is the idea to be propogated so much that everything looks dodgy. They had proof Clinton lied, he stayed in.
As for embarresment it comes down to a call on which is more of an embarresment.
It's basically going to come down to results- he'll be able to get away with all sorts of heinous bullshit, as long as he's giving people what they want, and then it'll come home to roost when he doesn't. That's a fairly loaded statement- he might not actually give people what they want but still persuade them he has, he might not give the party what they want but please his part of the electorate.
So what that basically means is that he can coast through all this crap just now and just roll with it, because he hasn't let his supporters down. Yet. Me, I think there's literally no chance that he won't. But the next question is, will they believe it, will they blame him, will it all be the lawyers fault or the mexicans or the cucks or the jinese. The whole campaign on Hilary's emails followed immediately by security breach scandals is absolutely laughable but it's not going to sway the Magahats.
I'd largely agree there NW
I think the points to add to that would be the culmulative effect of the outrage/alarmism/exaggeration of every minor thing as the precursor to (literally) a new holocaust.
I'm on record as a supporter, but I would argue that the protests and character attacks have achieved nothing, whereas the only effective damage has been caused by really traditional, old fashioned leaking and well structured and calm/clinical Court action (whether it subsequently holds up or not)
The thing is, if the outrage/alarmism and character assassination continues, then at some point you are going to hit "peak Trump" and news fatigue, whereby the value of the outrage has been so diminished (if everything is an outrage, then nothing is ever a real outrage) that when something really bad happens, the opposition become the boy who cried wolf.
I'm on record as a supporter, but I would argue that the protests and character attacks have achieved nothing, whereas the only effective damage has been caused by really traditional, old fashioned leaking and well structured and calm/clinical Court action (whether it subsequently holds up or not)
I think the character attacks are provoking his rage and ego - the Avoid Trump Products stuff probably spurred the thing about his daughter and will probably finish off Conway.
The celbrity tweets will have seior republicans rolling their eyes as to why he is bothering to dignify them with a reply. People know he will bite and look like an idiot.
Mass protest also highlights he hasn't got a full country behind him, it reminds the Republicans that the mid terms will be very important. If he fails to increase his approval rating it could end with a big reversal of seats.
They have 12 months of solid work to do to show they have achieved something, to do that he has to start working with people not fighting the world.
and to be honest the Russia story isn't going away
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/us/politics/russia-intelligence-communications-trump.html
But the intercepts alarmed American intelligence and law enforcement agencies, in part because of the amount of contact that was occurring while Mr. Trump was speaking glowingly about the Russian president, Vladimir V. Putin. At one point last summer, Mr. Trump said at a campaign event that he hoped Russian intelligence services had stolen Hillary Clinton’s emails and would make them public.The officials said the intercepted communications were not limited to Trump campaign officials, and included other associates of Mr. Trump. On the Russian side, the contacts also included members of the Russian government outside of the intelligence services, the officials said. All of the current and former officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because the continuing investigation is classified.
On this also do you not think that the current public opionion makes it easier to leak knowing that you have the public backing if it goes wrong.
than wanabees like the Clintons
Do you think they are a poor family?
Let's see what Trump stands for - other than himself.
American voters believe that makes him and his appointees far less likely to be corrupt/corruptable than wanabees like the Clintons
Absolutely.. until you see what his investments/advisors/cabinet is made up from.
[url= http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/in-case-you-were-wondering-donald-trump-has-multiple-ties-to-the-dakota-access-pipeline/ ]OIL[/url]
Dakota access pipeline... just got a green light for completion
The presidency is absolutely a self enrichment venture, on all levels.
I bet if he hadn't been elected, he would have launched a tv network with "the journey to the presidency" as the headlining reality show.
I'm on record as a supporter
What exactly is it that you support?
I still think Trump will give up the presidency quite quickly as he discovers he can't do everything he wants and as the lampooning of him gets worse. He just is unable to accept he is not right and can't take the mockery
More damming information about Trumps cronies contacts with russia - about which he has lied and can be proven to have lied
Trump was elected because he has money, the American voters believe that makes him and his appointees far less likely to be corrupt/corruptable than wanabees like the Clintons. The point with Hillary is everyone knew she would say whatever the biggest doner group wanted. She had no principals, she stood for nothing.
You repeatedly say it's not right to write off Trump voters as being thick, but if they truly believe what you say there, then they are more stupid than I gave them credit for.
Trump was elected because he has money, the American voters believe that makes him and his appointees far less likely to be corrupt/corruptable than wanabees like the Clintons. The point with Hillary is everyone knew she would say whatever the biggest doner group wanted. She had no principals, she stood for nothing.
Does he have more than Zuckerberg or Gates or Buffet?
Is he in the top ten rich list?
At $3.7bn, he's not even in nthe top 250 of global rich.
It's incredibly naive to think he's beyond corruption. He can't be No1 on the richlist, so he can play at being president and all the little, stupid Trumpettes voted for him.
Might be easier to calculate his real worth if we knew how much tax he was paying, but that's a different point. I totally trust someone who won't share their tax details.
and to be honest the Russia story isn't going away
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/us/politics/russia-intelligence-communications-trump.html
The moral of that story is that you probably shouldn't piss off your own country's intelligence agencies.
I'm on record as a supporter, but I would argue that the protests and character attacks have achieved nothing, whereas the only effective damage has been caused by really traditional, old fashioned leaking and well structured and calm/clinical Court action (whether it subsequently holds up or not)
The court cases are helped by the mass calling out of his idiocy
& These leaks are happening because of his tantrums & the ridicule they receive
He used his address at the CIA rather than to build desperately needed bridges with the agencies hed been attacking
Instead choosing to rant about unfair meedia coverage of his crowd size, even bussing in his own supporters to show people applauding for the cameras. All of this self-indulgent whining done in front of the memorial to all the CIA agents who had died on duty
And what the trumpers dont realise is that the celebrity snubs and global outrage are hurting the GOP
their traditional big money donors are nervous
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/gop-donor-ana-navarro-fully-investigate-trump-russia/article/2614745
Michael moore has been happily pointing this out - hes damaging the Reps & they will be weighing all this up when that 1st impeachment vote comes....
The ones I've spoken do realise it, but they are willing to put up with Amatuer hour, they are willing to put up with Russian links, they are willing to put up with Anything to stop the spread of Islamic culture.
Trump's always had a rocky relationship with intelligence.
Distracted by cat, nothing to see here.
Distracted by cat, nothing to see here
Donald Trump as said during the 15/2 security and intelligence briefing.
Distracted by cat, nothing to see here.
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[/img]
It was the best cat ever though, no seriously you should see this cat it's amazing. But I can't show it to you. Also it might be a Russian cat.
Actually it wasn't a cat, I never saw a cat. I'll need to look into it.
You do have to wonder whether Trump's constant efforts to discredit the NYT among his supporters over recent weeks might have something to do with their sniffing around this particular issue.
I think I'll wait to see what Infowars and Breitbart have to say on the story before I make my mind up.
I think I'll wait to see what Infowars and Breitbart have to say on the story before I make my mind up.
I know your answer is tongue-in-cheek, but it's exactly why Trump supporters won't be moved by these "revelations" at all. They're getting their news from sources that are sympathetic to, or controlled directly by, the Trump/Republican administration. (as is Trump himself). The NYT can do as much reportage as it likes...no one is paying attention.
How are breitbart/infowars fox spinning the Flynn thing then ?
That is the strategy though. Divert people to alternative news sources, continually attack the mainstream media.
Last Week Tonight did a bit on the vicious circle of Drumpf's own news consumption, his promotion of those sources, his supporters quoting the 'facts' back, and then his use of his supporters belief in them to bolster his own.
Nothing to see here, look at this cat.
Fox (I had to use pron mode to look)
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/02/15/trump-reportedly-kept-pence-in-dark-about-flynns-russian-phone-calls.html
Shielding pence dropping dt in it.
That and nasty leakers
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/02/14/trump-gop-lawmakers-eye-illegal-leaks-in-wake-flynn-resignation.html
nickc - MemberI know your answer is tongue-in-cheek, but it's exactly why Trump supporters won't be moved by these "revelations" at all. They're getting their news from sources that are sympathetic to, or controlled directly by, the Trump/Republican administration. (as is Trump himself).
I think this is overegged tbh. Yes there's a hard core of peple using alt-terrorists like Breitbart but the actual reach isn small. In terms of web traffic they're way, way down on CNN, Fox, NYT, Washington Post. And a good 10% of their traffic is referrals from Reddit, which will be mostly people like me tapping the glass.
There's definitely a hardcore there but while it's enough to count in an election it's a minority of Trump's vote. Fox for all their right wing mentalness are in a different league, and while they've got a serious reach and clout it's still not omnipresent. (Fox have had some pretty harsh content on Trump's omnishambles- I think if you have any pretence to being news, it's hard not to)
The other thing is, some of these allegations- links to russia, government corruption, infringement on the constitution- are bread and butter for these sorts of people. It remains to be seen how far Trump can do that before the cognitave dissonance really kicks off. Cold Dead Hands people and other constitutional fundamentalists don't like any sort of intrusion on that frinstance.