Starmer should not have offered Trump a second state visit, in line with existing protocol, but the invitation cannot be reasonably withdrawn now imo.
It doesn't need to be withdrawn, it just needs to be delayed. King's health concerns etc etc...
It's the thing Trump wants most from us. Well, he's learning actions have all sorts of consequences.
So is the King not going to carry out his head of state duties for the next four years claiming poor health just to delay a Trump state visit? That's what would be required because otherwise the humiliation of the Trump administration being told that the King is unwell whilst he carries on as normal would be just as bad, if not worse, than withdrawing the invitation.
It is one thing not to offer Trump a second state visit which he would never have expected anyway because it is unprecedented, and publicly humiliating him before the world by either withdrawing the invitation or simply ignoring it.
Starmer's advisors screwed up, they can't backtrack. The best we can hope for is huge anti-Trump demonstrations during his state visit. The government obviously won't like that but it's them that ****ed up.
This is what the US has been working on with Vietnam for a decade
U.S.-Vietnam relations have become increasingly cooperative and comprehensive, evolving into a flourishing partnership that spans political, economic, security, and people-to-people ties. Relations are guided by the 2023 U.S.-Vietnam Comprehensive Strategic Partnership (CSP), an overarching framework for advancing the bilateral relationship, and built on preceding Joint Statements issued over the previous ten years by the two countries’ leaders
https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-vietnam/
This is what President Trump has achieved in a few weeks
HANOI, April 14 (Reuters) - China's President Xi Jinping on Monday called for stronger ties with Vietnam on trade and supply chains amid disruptions caused by U.S. tariffs, as he kicked off a three-nation trip to Southeast Asia in the Vietnamese capital of Hanoi.
The visit, planned for weeks, comes as Beijing faces 145% U.S. duties, while Vietnam is negotiating a reduction of threatened U.S. tariffs of 46% that would otherwise apply in July after a global moratorium expires.
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/chinas-xi-meet-vietnam-leaders-kick-off-southeast-asia-tour-amid-us-tariffs-2025-04-14/
Not to mention this gem
But now that President Donald Trump has rocked relationships with Europe established after World War Two, and turned to energy as a bargaining chip in trade negotiations, businesses are wary that reliance on the United States has become another vulnerability.
Against this backdrop, executives at major EU firms have begun to say what would have been unthinkable a year ago: that importing some Russian gas, including from Russian state giant Gazprom...
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/back-russian-gas-trump-wary-eu-has-energy-security-dilemma-2025-04-14/
It's not realisticaly sustainable... back to the UK car export thing... If a '100k UK' car costs US citizens '120k' already due to 'luxury tax', than an additional 10% tariff on top of that (I presume the tax will be stacked) would mean that 100k car now costs, what, 132k for an american citizen to buy it?
I can only dream, but if I was spending that much money on a car, I'd be looking at some Italian exotica, not a Morgan or whatever.
Trouble is that like most cars now the Italian exotica is way more expensive than you think the Lamborghini suv (yuk) starts from $240k and the nice stuff $280k
100k isn’t wow territory anymore 🙁
I wonder what additional back tracking goes on this week. An awful lot of stuff comes out of China. Went to Portmeirion a couple of weeks ago, saw some mugs on sale - but MrsF checked their on-line store and they were 25% cheaper than in store. For those that don't know Portmeirion sell a range of pottery as well as being famous for 'The Prisoner".
Saved us carrying them round so ordered on line (bonkers really). "Made in China" it says on the bottom !
It is one thing not to offer Trump a second state visit which he would never have expected anyway because it is unprecedented, and publicly humiliating him before the world by either withdrawing the invitation or simply ignoring it.
Given the humiliation he has piled on himself and the damage he's done to international relations, I don't care how he takes it if we delay the visit. What else is he going to do? Have another tariff tantrum? Push us towards other more reliable allies and trading partners?
He's upended the world order and should be firmly in the FAFO stage of the process.
There was an interesting article published a few years ago (can't find the original, but it is currently being re-hashed by a number of publications) about the manufacture of the iPhone, and the time Obama asked Steve Jobs how much it would cost to build the iPhone in the USA. Jobs explained to Obama that it wasn't simply a question of assembly cost. The entire complex integrated manufacturing chain required to build an iPhone (production engineers and project managers, logistics, components suppliers, etc, etc) had moved to China. Jobs nearly pulled the launch with a month to go, after his prototype plastic screened phone was badly scratched by they keys in his pocket. The Apple team immediately flew to China where they were met by a team of engineers who developed a new production ready glass screen solution in a couple of weeks. The Chinese had all the experts, suppliers and infrastructure available to do this at short notice.
Replacing the manufacturing environment required to compete with that is a complex, long term problem that will take years to fix and won't be solved overnight by mad tariffs. US consumers started grumbling about expensive iPhones and Trump has u-turned almost immediately.
So is the King not going to carry out his head of state duties for the next four years claiming poor health just to delay a Trump state visit?
My understanding is Trump doesn’t have an invitation for a state visit, he has an invitation for Tea so that Charles can discuss arrangements for a proposed state visit. I don’t think Charles is immune to saying we would love to have you for a visit assuming of course there is special trading relationship / political stability in Ukraine / we hear nothing more about Greenland / Vance apologises for meddling in UK woman’s rights.
More likely the computer said "No" and there aren't enough properly trained and empowered staff to deal with the fall out from the rejections.
you're missing the point that only married women who use their married name have to make a paper application. Males or women with their maiden names can use the on-line system
whilst many more women will be affected by this - presumably it does affect men who have changed their names (or at least changed their names during their working career?) too? Whilst many more women change their names - there’s a lot of people who’s official “passport name” today does not match their “birth certificate name” and they aren’t all women.
Replacing the manufacturing environment required to compete with that is a complex, long term problem that will take years to fix and won't be solved overnight by mad tariffs. US consumers started grumbling about expensive iPhones and Trump has u-turned almost immediately.
TBF trumps skills weren’t in manufacturing 🙂
Funny enough you also have an issue with staffing these factories, as the experts/engineers with the practical knowledge are in China.
I don’t think your interpretation of what is permitted is correct. Eg, if Musk posts “no better time to buy Tesla shares
It might break a different law but it wouldnt be insider trading in the US sense. It cant be insider trading if you post it on twitter since then its publicly available (assuming its a large well known company and the official account).
You might be breaking some other laws especially around when reports are published but thats separate from insider trading.
Funny enough you also have an issue with staffing these factories, as the experts/engineers with the practical knowledge are in China.
Which was something Biden tried to address with the CHIPS act.
Something Trump ermmm wants to get rid off and use the money for paying off pornstars or maybe debt.
So they're asking for more people to work in high tech manufacturing AND more people to work in low skill manual jobs (to replace the immigrants) and they don't want immigration. So who's going to do these jobs?
I don’t think Charles is immune to saying we would love to have you for a visit assuming of course there is special trading relationship / political stability in Ukraine / we hear nothing more about Greenland / Vance apologises for meddling in UK woman’s rights.
I am sure he isn't, it would hardly enhance UK-US relations though. Trump has been given a handwritten letter from the King inviting him to discuss a second state visit, this was a mistake on several levels imo including the fact that a second state visit of this sort is unprecedented and Trump had no reason to expect the invitation.
However it is not reasonable to expect the UK government to now withdraw the invitation (which they should never have made). Yes they could withdraw it if they wanted to, yes they could simply not proceed forward with it, yes the King could demand all sorts of conditions which Trump won't agree to, but that would be simply another mistake to a self inflicted mess which Starmer created. I don't see the point of piling one mistake on top of another.
Plus of course let's not forget that there is zero chance of the government actually doing any of that.
I did sign kimbers petition calling for the invitation to be withdrawn and offered to Zelensky instead btw, but that was to register my disapproval, I never expected it to do anymore than that. And when the second visit eventually takes place I will be doing exactly the same as I did during Trump's first state visit when the other Tories were in government, joining anti-Trump demonstrations in London.
you're missing the point that only married women who use their married name have to make a paper application. Males or women with their maiden names can use the on-line system
unless it changed since last year, that’s certainly not the whole story. My mother applied online with no trouble.
used her married name, no issues.
maybe you have had problems, but it’s not a blanket policy.
and as an aside, photo id required for voting can be obtained for free. You don’t need a passport.
I do agree.. Regarding the state visit.. Rather than cancelling, a perpetual sick note /schedule clash from Charles, and Starmer to do similar... Too busy dealing with domestic issues etc. So it never actually happens.
Path of least resistance and maintaining an air of deplomacy so as not to burn bridges.
However it is not reasonable to expect the UK government to now withdraw the invitation (
It absolutely is reasonable. The invite was made before Zelenskys Oval Office ambush, before the deportations with no legal process, before the tariffs trashed international trade.
It is absolutely reasonable to use the diplomatic option of withdrawing or delaying his visit to show our revulsion at him and his policies. There is no special relationship to protect any more.
Trump and his US government need putting on the international diplomacy equivalent of the naughty step. To pretend that we "just can't" because he won't like it is, frankly, bizarre.
Well I don't think it is reasonable to expect the UK government to withdraw the invitation but good luck if you think Starmer might.
That's very conservative of you Ernie. 😉
Sorry about the cross thread dig. 🙂 I agree with you, a cancellation would be a pointless snub and an opportunity to flatter and negotiate lost.
Well I don't think it is reasonable to expect the UK government to withdraw the invitation but good luck if you think Starmer might.
What worse thing than the current shit show do you think will happen if the UK withdraws the invite?
Apply the same tarifs to the UK as the EU or even China, and withdraw even more support from Ukraine.
Hell hath no fury like a Trump scorned, MCTD. Ukraine and tarifs are too important to get get petty with Trump.
Yes, as much as I'd like to see the RAF blow Trumps plane out of the sky the second it enters UK airspace, and then blame a 'radar glitch', it's not the correct path.
Diplomacy sometimes means holding your tongue. Perpetual delay and subterfuge is the name of the game, here, IMO.
Apply the same tarifs to the UK as the EU or even China, and withdraw even more support from Ukraine.
And he will do that as he pleases whether his ass is kissed or if he is insulted.
Unless you have some evidence that treating Trump "diplomatically" brings a different response than what he intends to do anyway, I am not seeing any.
Although personally I wouldn't mind if he has his state visit, and Charlie admonishes him for his "disrespectful" appearance, painting his gormless face orange on a state visit would be more disrespectful than a wartime leader not wearing a suit to the white house 😉
Not necessarily, MSP. Lose/lose situations are often born of irrational feelings. The word that came into my head when Trump started trade warring with Canada was "spite". Both sides were clearly going to lose. I've just Googled "Trump spite" and this is the first result:
It's clear Im not alone in my thinking. Trump is quite capable of penalising the UK for the slight of a cancelled visit out of spite even if it damages the US as much as the UK.
IMO the error Zelensky has made is not licking Trump's boots enough. He's a bit too proud for his own good and hasn't been flattering Trump's ego enough. Being right or wrong doesn't really matter, arse licking does.
He's a bit too proud for his own good and hasn't been flattering Trump's ego enough. Being right or wrong doesn't really matter, arse licking does.
I think I'd rather be accused of being proud than lick Trumps arse.
All Trump wants from Ukraine is the rare earth minerals, and he'll **** over the whole country to achieve that. Licking his arse just delays the inevitable.
What worse thing than the current shit show do you think will happen if the UK withdraws the invite?
I think you might have misunderstood the point I am making. I couldn't give a monkeys if Trump's second state visit invitation to the UK is withdrawn**. I don't however believe that it is reasonable to expect Starmer to do that.
Firstly because there is zero chance that Starmer will, and secondly because his entire strategy for dealing with Trump has been to sycophantically shower him with patronising shite.
Publicly snubbing Trump before the world by withdrawing the invitation would be an even bigger mistake for Starmer than the mistake he made in inviting him.
Starmer is trying to cultivate this mythical "special relationship" and the "United States is our closest ally" bollocks, personally I would much rather he didn't and instead treated the United States as the dangerous bully it has always been.
Hopefully the second Trump presidency will be the long overdue wake-up call that the UK (and much o the Western World) has needed. Because of the sheer economic power of the United States global realignments and adjustments will take time. But no country should have that much power and now is the time to deal with the issue.
**Although there is absolutely no reason to unnecessarily antagonise the United States/Trump imo.
IMO the error Zelensky has made is not licking Trump's boots enough.
I strongly dissagree with that.. Trump tried to back Zelensky into a corner, typical bully tactics.
Zelensky was rightly having none of it... how would it have looked back in Ukraine if thier leader was metaphoricaly getting bum raped, and selling out live on TV? it was never an option.
I have a lot of respect for Zelensky, and a lot less than zero respect for the USA at the moment.
Bully's never learn until they are taught a hard lesson. And Trump is due some education.
What worse thing than the current shit show do you think will happen if the UK withdraws the invite?
Publicly snubbing Trump before the world by withdrawing the invitation would be an even bigger mistake for Starmer than the mistake he made in inviting him.
I agree... I suspect we both agree on more things than we might let on!
The invite has gone out, and it would be a bad move to simply cancel it... it's a question of damage limitation now, the orange turd shouldn't ever be allowed to set foot in the UK ever again on official business.
So it's a question of how starmer prevents it in the most gentle way possible.
And why the **** did charles send the **** a personal invite? had he been at camillas private supply of cuban cigars and vintage whisky that evening?
Zelensky was rightly having none of it...
Bully's never learn until they are taught a hard lesson.
What lesson do you think Zelensky taught Trump?
If we are talking about the ill-fated press conference I don't think that Zelensky needed to lick anyone's boots.
He also didn't need to have a spat with Trump whilst it was being televised to the whole world, that was never going to do Zelensky any favours. Nor should he have taken JD Vance's bait.
Zelensky could have just kept quiet. As indeed had the King of Jordan had at a press conference a while earlier when Trump was talking bollocks about ethnically cleansing Gaza and developing it as a seaside resort. Jordan had already rejected out of hand Trump's plan and there was no point the King having a public row with Trump at the press conference.
And why the * did charles send the * a personal invite?
Because the Prime Minister had told him to?
And why the * did charles send the * a personal invite?
Because the Prime Minister had told him to?
Oh, I'm sorry, did I miss the part where Starmer forced Charles hand, to sign a letter? If you sign your name, it's on you.
Charles could have simply told Starmer he didn't want to get involved, and that would have been that.
Zelensky was rightly having none of it...
Bully's never learn until they are taught a hard lesson.
What lesson do you think Zelensky taught Trump?
If we are talking about the ill-fated press conference I don't think that Zelensky needed to lick anyone's boots.
He also didn't need to have a spat with Trump whilst it was being televised to the whole world, that was never going to do Zelensky any favours. Nor should he have taken JD Vance's bait.
Zelensky could have just kept quiet.
He was representing his country, you know that sovereignity thing that brexiteers keep banging on about, but not really understanding what it means...? 😉
Oh, I'm sorry, did I miss the part where Starmer forced Charles hand, to sign a letter?
Well it's going to blow your mind when you hear how Starmer forced the King to deliver an entire speech.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32816450
Oh, I'm sorry, did I miss the part where Starmer forced Charles hand, to sign a letter?
Well it's going to blow your mind when you hear how Starmer forced the King to deliver an entire speech.
Genuine question - how does that translate into the king sending a personal invite to trump? the king (or queen) just ratifies the goverment du jours' general agenda? Charlie could have just said to starmer...
"do what you want on behalf of the UK as PM? "
There doesn't seem to be any requirement or precident for a personal letter from Charles to Trump. that's optional?
Liz Truss… wrong about pretty much everything.
Theres a good article in the Times today, by William Hague, on the folly of Trump arrogantly and thoughtlessly starting a trade war with China that he can’t possibly win, as he’s now finding out
Trump’s policy on China is a strategic blunder
Hmmm that deporting some bloke with a court order say they shouldn’t be deported is still rumbling on.
el-Salvador saying they can’t send him back but would if US facilitate ,US side digging heels in on not bringing him back.
Bully's never learn until they are taught a hard lesson. And Trump is due some education.
Going by previous episodes the only lesson he’s learnt is to this time to surround himself with people loyal to him.
I’m not sure Donald’s the learning type tbh, the only lesson to be learnt is by other countries seeing a once proud country transition into a dictatorship or attempt to.
It's clear Im not alone in my thinking. Trump is quite capable of penalising the UK for the slight of a cancelled visit out of spite even if it damages the US as much as the UK.
Cranky Grandfather would probably wake up one day and decide to pop a 200% tarrif on you.
If you look all he wants is attention for his daily TV episode
If you aren’t kissing the ring and swearing loyalty or heaping praise on him then your more than likely to be the next victim of his petty vindictiveness.
BTW that’s apparently the ‘worlds coolest dictator’ twitter/x pictured with trump whose currently hobby is:
Since assuming the presidency on June 1, 2019, Nayib Bukele has tightened his grip on power at the expense of eroding democracy and rule of law. At the beginning of this year, the ruling party secured a majority in the Legislative Assembly allowing it to pass laws without negotiating with the opposition and to completely reshuffle the Constitutional Chamber whose rulings until then had stifled the government. The fruits of this for Bukele came fast, with the new handpicked judges wasting little time green-lighting his re-electoral ambitions albeit in express contravention to the country’s Constitution.
https://directoriolegislativo.org/en/how-nayib-bukele-is-becoming-the-worlds-coolest-dictator/
By all accounts Trump and all the other Trumpettes are obsessed by meeting British Royalty. He apparently has the same reaction to them as he does with dictators - ie he's in awe of them and fawns all over them [eeww]. If I was PM, and I knew that setting up a meeting with one man- who's actual job is just shaking hands with people just like Trump, would make a actual material difference to thousands of people's who's jobs rely on exporting goods to the US, then I would make sure I was doing everything I could to make that happen.
And why the * did charles send the * a personal invite?
Because the Prime Minister had told him to?
Oh, I'm sorry, did I miss the part where Starmer forced Charles hand, to sign a letter? If you sign your name, it's on you.
Charles could have simply told Starmer he didn't want to get involved, and that would have been that.
For someone worrying about international diplomacy and how things look, you might want to start by learning about how things work at home. The last king who told his government what to do regretted it.
